Bunkai

[Taiji Rebel]

Do you believe the various applications of kata come down to how creative you are?

 

[Flying Crane]

Do you believe the various applications of kata come down to how creative you are?

My forms are Chinese and not a Japanese kata so my comments are coming from a different perspective.

I believe the applications within the forms are examples of what is possible. They may be useful exactly as-is, or maybe not, or maybe are for some people but not for others. But they act as examples of what is possible and eventually you figure out that you can do what you want with the skills you have learned, whether that includes application directly from the forms, or complete creativity of your own applications. I do not believe the applications from the forms define all that is required within the system, nor do I believe they define the limits of what is possible or what is allowed within the system, nor do I believe the student has any obligation to master the application of what is found within the forms.

 

[skribs]

I think a lot of depends on if you're a lumper or a lister, at least in this context.

• Lumper - you think about things by grouping them together and finding what's similar between them
• Lister - you think about things by what sets them apart and makes them unique

A simple example of this would be if you think of cats and dogs as pets, that you need to feed them, water them, love them, give them enrichment, and clean up after their fur and mess. Or, you may look at cats and dogs as completely different in the specifics of their care and personalities.

If you can look at an inside block and also call it an inside chop, hook punch, elbow strike, turning your body for a roundhouse kick, joint lock, choke, sweep, throw, swinging a stick, stabbing with a knife, or brushing your teeth, then you're a lumper, and you probably enjoy bunkai.

I would argue that bunkai is more an exercise in pattern matching than actually drawing anything out of the kata. This is based on my opinion as a lister, which I'll elaborate on in a second, but also as my experience in Taekwondo instead of Karate, which does tend to take a different approach to forms. For example, most people aren't going to do an inside block in a form and connect that motion with a joint lock, unless they also know the joint lock already. At that point, "bunkai" is just the "aha" moment when someone says "move your arm like the inside block" when discussing the joint lock.

A lister, like me (at least in this case) is going to look instead at the bunkai and say, "That's not how it's done in the form." While I do sometimes refer back to forms for similar moves, I do so as a teaching aide, and not a primary method of teaching. For example, there's a gun defense we would use in my old class, where you cross inside blocks on the hand and elbow to bend the arm. That particular attack isn't something you would draw from doing single inside blocks in the form.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Do you believe the various applications of kata come down to how creative you are?

I believe they come down to how well you understand the system, and the underlying principles.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you believe the various applications of kata come down to how creative you are?

Form is dead but the person who trains the form is alive.

If your form contains a "jab, cross, jab" combo, will you be able to figure out the following combos such as:

- jab, cross, hook.
- jab, cross, uppercut.
- jab, cross, overhand.
- ...

How many meaningful 3 punches combos can you create?

After you have learned the grammar from a book, how many sentences can you create?

 

[isshinryuronin]

I do not believe the applications from the forms define all that is required within the system, nor do I believe they define the limits of what is possible or what is allowed within the system, nor do I believe the student has any obligation to master the application of what is found within the forms.

I agree with this, except your last point in this quote. If the student is supposed to know a form he is by definition, IMO, obligated to learn the application since the bunkai is the kata. Now, for the question of interpreting what that application actually is - a confusing endeavor at times since we are far removed from the masters who created the kata and they have been modified since, by intent (sometimes irresponsibly) or thru ignorance and we must often reverse engineer to approach the solution.

Another complication is that some moves done in a one-two count were designed to be done simultaneously, giving a whole new meaning to the combo. There are other examples of how some applications were disguised during karate's secret formative years. Middle dan blackbelts can do some reasonable experimentation that may unlock some of this.

It is not an entirely impossible task, however. By knowing the basic rules of kata (Miyagi listed a number of them) such as when one is grabbing or touching one's own arm in a technique that usually means that you are grabbing or trapping the opponent's arm, or that when dropping into a lower stance, that usually means that you are lowering your center for some sort of grappling technique. Sometimes turns or twisting indicate this as well. And a few moves remain a mystery. I don't lose sleep over it. My wife is still a mystery to me after almost 30 years!

Another clue to a move's meaning is to see it in context with adjacent moves, before or after the one in question. Does it make sense to say a technique is a joint lock if there is no prior trap or grab? Or to say that a strike is to the body when the prior move is a low kick which would bring the head down to that level?

As for the OP's question of creativity - there is some room for this, though it must be judicious. "Bunkai" means to "take apart" for analysis. If you must change the kata in any but the slightest way to make your creative technique work, you have left the kata behind and it is no longer bunkai, breaking down an existing series, but rather substituting a new series - in essence, creating a new kata, in part.

I believe they come down to how well you understand the system, and the underlying principles.

Just so. The better one can do this, and by adhering to the things discussed above, I think we can decipher
much bunkai and arrive at reasonable appplications. There may be two or three that fit the kata, and that's OK - there is flexibility built into MA techniques and human combat sense to allow for the "fog of war."

 

[skribs]

If the student is supposed to know a form he is by definition, IMO, obligated to learn the application since the bunkai is the kata.

If we were in the Karate forums I wouldn't argue with you, but since we're in general - this has not at all been my experience with forms in Taekwondo.

 

[isshinryuronin]

If we were in the Karate forums I wouldn't argue with you, but since we're in general - this has not at all been my experience with forms in Taekwondo.

I understand your dilemma. I think the bunkai is still there, although in an eroded form. By this I mean that when karate was exported to Japan it was changed for kids, changed for sport and changed for standardization. As a result, form subdued function to some degree. When karate was exported to Korea (at least that part that influenced TDK development) I think this process happened again to an equal or even greater degree, further separating the product from its original form. But like the human appendix or the legs of a whale, vestiges of application remain and their function can be at least partly traced. Look to the past to understand the present.

 

[drop bear]

Do you believe the various applications of kata come down to how creative you are?

No.

And I think it is a terrible way to look at application.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Do your understanding and applications come from your own investigations into the forms, or are they learned from your instructor?

 

[drop bear]

Do your understanding and applications come from your own investigations into the forms, or are they learned from your instructor?

Understanding of application comes from application.

Which is basic scientific method.

But when you try to discover the application of forms you break that method by assuming the form has an application.

And what you get is no longer finding an answer you are just confirming a bias.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Understanding of application comes from application.

Which is basic scientific method.

But when you try to discover the application of forms you break that method by assuming the form has an application.

And what you get is no longer finding an answer you are just confirming a bias.

How does somebody learn the applications of the forms/kata in the first place?

 

[drop bear]

How does somebody learn the applications of the forms/kata in the first place?

You don't. You just enjoy kata for what it is.

 

[drop bear]

This might work as an explanation. Here is a tutorial on how to do a 540 kick.

To pull this kick off you need to drill a bunch of mechanical movements so you don't fall on your head.

That would be forms.

Now if we took those individual drills and tried to visualise how heath movements is somehow a secret fighting move and then bend reality to make every knee raise or hip turn a combat move.

That would be bunkai at its most silly.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

This might work as an explanation. Here is a tutorial on how to do a 540 kick.

To pull this kick off you need to drill a bunch of mechanical movements so you don't fall on your head.

That would be forms.

Now if we took those individual drills and tried to visualise how heath movements is somehow a secret fighting move and then bend reality to make every knee raise or hip turn a combat move.

That would be bunkai at its most silly.

This is a tutorial on how to perform a 540 kick. This is not a kata and does nothing to answer the question of how somebody learns the applications in the first place.

 

[drop bear]

This is a tutorial on how to perform a 540 kick. This is not a kata and does nothing to answer the question of how somebody learns the applications in the first place.

Sorry the best I could come up with.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

 

[Hyoho]

Do you believe the various applications of kata come down to how creative you are?

A kata is the shape or form of a given technique/waza, in full or in part to allow you to understand it. It has zero to do with creativity. In actual fact if you want to be creative in changing the kata you won't get anywhere. Good kata is judged on your ability to perform fundamentals. As you become senior you can than hopefully add your own character to it and make it enjoyable to watch for others.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Kata encapsulates the system. It is used in conjunction with kihon (basics).

Kata, as I have been taught it, is used with bunkai (application) to understand the system and put it to use. It has multiple layers, not all of which are taught in every school.

Kata must have bunkai or it is simply a rote repetition of movements. It may improve hand-eye coordination, but it's certainly not going to be overly useful in a fight.

The basic type of bunkai is omote. This is the most obvious application. An example might be the answer to the question "Why am I doing this middle body block?" The answer might be "An incoming punch." Makes sense. Someone punches you, you block it. Basic.

One can practice omote bunkai with a partner. One person performs the kata, the partner gives them a reason for each major movement in the kata. This helps with mental visualization when practicing kata alone. It helps with speed, pacing, power, balance, footwork, etc.

For many karateka, omote is all that is taught. This is, in my opinion, only acceptable at the kyu ranks. Dan ranks especially should be absorbing more advanced techniques, present in the same kata.

Ura bunkai is more advanced. Some refer to it as the 'secrets' or 'hidden' aspects of karate. They're not really secrets, or how would anyone know them? But they are taught at the appropriate time to advanced students who can apply the techniques. Suddenly a simple middle body block can become a redirection, for example. There can be many ura applications within each move in a kata, taught individually over time. There may be few. Each kata is different, as is each movement in the kata. I've seen bunkai that some might say 'breaks' the kata, but in fact, it does not. It's simply something that one might not think of instinctively.

Honto is the most advanced bunkai. At that point, the kata may not resemble the kata entirely anymore, as it is movement-by-movement, and it is entirely practical. This is the part of karate that answers the eternal criticism of the non-karateka that "But I'm not going to fight in a straight line, and nobody is going to attack me in the form of a kata." Correct, you won't use a kata *as a kata* to defend yourself. That would be silly, impractical, and dangerous. But it picks out the parts of the katas that are most effective at a given point in time and drills it until it becomes mushin (no mind) or instant response. This is the core principle of karate. All of the codes of karate become operational and make sense. No thinking is required.

I claim no expertise in ura or honto bunkai; I am a student as well as a teacher and I teach omote bunkai to less experienced students, not the more advanced bunkai.

But I know that this is what informs me when I spar (I can't spar anymore, so it's not easy for me to say). People say "So, if I come at you with a straight punch to the head with my right hand, how will you react?" I reply, I will defend myself. But how will I defend myself? What techniques will I use? I will use the techniques that happen. If I have trained well and often, and locked the bunkai into my muscle memory, the correct technique at that time for those conditions will occur. That's honto. That's "Techniques will occur in the absence of conscious thought."

I do not argue with people who think kata is useless in a fight. I do not argue with those who say kata interpretation is impractical ("that's not a dump, you can't dump anyone that way!") or impossible ("you can't break someone's arm that way!"). I've seen a lot of bad bunkai that I do not believe can be applied, which certainly gives rise to such comments. I've seen kata without bunkai, and that makes me sad.

I do not claim that I possess any ultimate secrets or supernatural powers due to kata interpretation and application, nor that what I am taught is better than what anyone else is taught. I believe in my heart that the training I am fortunate enough to receive is excellent, however. I am not an impressionable child, and I work in an IT world where proving it is the only way to make me believe anything. All the bunkai I have ever seen demonstrated works to my satisfaction. It's not convoluted, impossible, or exaggerated. My instructors can apply it instantly, without setup or think time. It bloody well works, mate. All I can do is hope to absorb more of it in the time I have remaining.

 

[skribs]

You don't. You just enjoy kata for what it is.

A lot of people on this forum get upset with me for saying this, but this was my eventual conclusion. There are a lot of benefits to kata, and those benefits tend to be understated by kata deniers. But there's things kata just doesn't do, which tend to be overstated.

This is a tutorial on how to perform a 540 kick. This is not a kata and does nothing to answer the question of how somebody learns the applications in the first place.

It depends on how you define "kata". Again, because you're asking in General and not in the Karate forum, I'm going to treat this as general. So I'm treating the word "kata" as "form". In my personal experience, "forms" are long, choreographed pieces that are usually at least 16 steps from start to finish, often more steps and with multiple techniques per step. What my school called "techniques" were individual techniques or combinations of techniques that were a small handful of movements, which would be called as set plays. For example, "Kicking #4" would be a roundhouse kick, back kick combo.

Some people would call those "short forms" or just "forms", because it's a piece of rote material for the curriculum. By my definition above, that is included in kata.

I could be mistaken, but I do not believe @drop bear has done forms. I think he's a BJJ/MMA guy, and I don't know what else he's done (although now would be a great opportunity to enlighten me on that). His example may not be the best example, because he doesn't have one from his personal experience. I'll use another one from mine. However, I do believe his example does a very good job of getting the point across.

The 540 kick is a difficult kick, which looks impressive to the audience. It serves a purpose in demonstration. I believe that the process of learning the 540 kick makes you better at the tornado kick and roundhouse kick, which are much more practical kicks. I also believe that the athleticism required to pull off a 540 kick means folks who practice are encouraged to work on their leg strength, core strength, and weight loss to make this work (also, because it's such an explosive technique, it helps work on those things as well).

But I never once taught the 540 kick by saying, "This is to get more power for knockouts in street fights." I told them this instead, "This kick is to look cool."

Oh, on second thought:

It is in a form. These are the competition forms that World Taekwondo is going to might be using at some point.

The combination starts at 1:07, the kick is around 1:11.

Sorry the best I could come up with.

I think it was a good example of how a technique can be what it is and serve a purpose, even if it doesn't have a practical application. And, now you know it is in a form!

However, I would have picked more common techniques from forms. Those include the double knife-hand block and the scissor block.

Double Knife-Hand Block

The double knife-hand block (pictured left) is a big staple of not only TKD, but also Karate and any other similar-styles forms. It differs from the single knife-hand block (right) in that the off-hand is placed near the solar plexus instead of chambered on the hip.

When I originally asked for the application of the technique, 95% of the answers focused on either:

• The main hand, which was not the question, because I had no problem with the single knife-hand block
• How stupid I was for not knowing the plain and obvious answer

The really funny thing is, I think I actually do have an idea why you would place the hand where it is; because it's then faster to strike with that hand on the next move. It doesn't make sense as a guard position (I would want the palm pointed down or in), and the motions in both Palgwe Style and Taegeuk style don't make sense for a grappling move (for different reasons. So, it's for a faster strike. But wait!

Look at the first set from the first form below, and the second video starting at 0:35. There are two instances of the double knife-hand in the first video, and three in the second.

What you'll notice in both of these videos (which are consistent with the official Kukkiwon videos, just these are 1:00 videos instead of 15:00 ones), is that between the knife-hand block and the next technique, their hand moves from that "speed chamber" that I said must be the application, back to the full chamber position. So this actually makes the technique take longer than in the basic knife-hand block.

Scissor Block

The scissor block is a down block with one hand, and an outside block with the other. Typically this done in a front stance, with the down block protecting the forward leg. The description of the scissor block when teaching is that it is "protecting a kick from one side and a punch from the other side."

I reject this, because I would rather simply not be in between both of those attacks. I would defend one or both of those strikes with my feet, attempt to isolate one assailant, and then I only need a down block or outside block; not both. There are several ways in which this movement can be used, but not in the exact way as done in the forms, and not for the exact purpose.

Although I have developed my own forms, mostly with aesthetics in mind, but this is one technique I feel I actually do better than either the Palgwe forms I learned or the official Taegeuk forms. One of my forms uses the down block in the scissor block as a chamber for a backfist, which I feel makes more sense than chambering at the hip. I also do make use of the hand position in the double-knife-hand block in my combos, including using combos similar to those in Taegeuk 4 and Taegeuk 8, but not adding extra movement to waste the positional advantage.
What are the ways I could see the scissor block being used?

• Set up a figure-4 lock (usually done around shoulder level instead of midsection)
• Set up an elbow lock ("up" hand pushes up on the elbow, "down" hand pushes down on the wrist)
• Breaking out of someone's grip ("up" hand wants to escape, "down" hand pushes their arm down to make it easier)
• Pull down a punch or a guard with the left hand, backfist with the right hand (similar motion but slightly different)
• Block a kick and backfist with the other hand
• Block a punch, and hammerfist to the groin with the other hand
• A similar ending position, but with both blocks on the same side, to protect against a roundhouse kick that might go to the body or the head. Kind of like the concept behind the Muay Thai check position. Was very useful in our school for grabbing roundhouse kicks in self-defense training or on the rare chance that we did "freestyle" sparring

None of those examples perform the technique in the way done in the forms. The way done in the forms doesn't match to any application. The way it's described in the forms isn't the strategy I would choose in a real 2-on-1 situation.

What I will do is if someone is struggling with a kick defense or a figure-4 lock, I may try saying "Like a scissor block", and sometimes that helps. But I use it as a teaching aide, not a teaching method.

There are more techniques than this, but these two are the main ones that I have focused on. I have three levels of technique from forms at the moment:

• Basic techniques, in which the application is obvious (i.e. a high block, or a kick, or a punch, or a simple block-and-punch combo)
• Intermediate techniques, which are very common, but I'm not satisfied with the answers we have
• Advanced techniques, which I haven't even dug into, because if I can't be satisfied by the answers for intermediate techniques, then why bother?