Bummed and confused

[Primal Kuen]

I need some advice...
I Started taking wing chun around 4 monyhs ago...I like it, and the teacher is cool...here's the problem: I'm taking this class on blind faith that it will be effective.
we are not allowed to spar, we are not even allowed to WATCH the advanced classes in which sparring takes place. Everything learned at this point is in slow motion...sparring / fighting is prohibited until blue sash, which is about 1 1/2 years away !
I understand that it's important to lay a strong foundation for this style before applying the principles...blah blah blah...but I'm not rich by any means. I scrape the bottom of the barrel to be able to do this, and it's frustrating to not even be allowed to see WC in action ( via the advanced classes etc. ) you know what I mean ?
To be clear, I'm not in this to learn an art so much as I am to be able to defend myself in a realistic situation. I'm not impatient for those skills...but at the same time my money and blind faith are starting to not mix too well.
What do you guys think ?

 

[Blindside]

If someone told me that I had to wait 1.5 years in the art before I ever saw a punch thrown at me with intent, I'd go find another teacher.

Lamont

 

[tellner]

There's nothing wrong with waiting for a while before free-sparring. A lot of people start it too early. The students find something that works well enough (usually some combination of strength, speed and reach) and don't develop any further. That's no good.

But there has to be pressure. You need to have confidence in your tools. So before you do full out sparring you need to do exercises or more constrained sparring that gives you some of the benefits while you get your foundation. It may not be full on sparring, but there needs to be some way you can test it and get used to opposition.

I don't understand the bit about not being allowed to watch people sparring. I could see not allowing beginners in the advanced class or not allowing them to watch if the lesson for the evening were something like attacking with a knife which is something a good teacher won't show to people he doesn't know and trust.

 

[still learning]

Hello, Trust your intincts in your feelings on this.

If this is not what you want? trust that feelings and move on to something else. Take what you have learn and keep what is usefull.

To not be able to watch advance students? .....NOT sure about this? What is so secret here? BEWARE? Does not sound right for todays world of training.

Trust you "heart" on this one? You wouldn't be asking unless you feel something is NOT right for you!

Move on to something that you want out of learning the martial arts....they are not the only ones teaching skills in fighting back.

Aloha (just an opinion)

 

[Drac]

Hello, Trust your intincts in your feelings on this.

If this is not what you want? trust that feelings and move on to something else. Take what you have learn and keep what is usefull.

To not be able to watch advance students? .....NOT sure about this? What is so secret here? BEWARE? Does not sound right for todays world of training.

Trust you "heart" on this one? You wouldn't be asking unless you feel something is NOT right for you!

Move on to something that you want out of learning the martial arts....they are not the only ones teaching skills in fighting back.

Aloha (just an opinion)

I must agree..WAY back when I was a white belt in the Shorin-Ryu system we were sparring after about a month in the dojo, and we sparred with the Senior students and Sensei if there were no intermediate ranks about...

 

[Danny T]

There are several different opinions on the most effective way to instruct and coach. Wing Chun can be a very effective training system. It can also be very ineffective; of course this can be said of all training systems. Depends on the trainer as well as the individual training. I’m certain we all have see poorly trained as well as very well trained athletes in other sports.

With the information you have given we don’t know your instructor or training method only a small part of it, therefore, I would be remiss in making any real opinions as to the particular method be used.

As a training system Wing Chun should take 2-3 years to be quite effective. Another 2-3 years to be extremely effective depending upon the individual and the amt of actual training time they put in. I have seen persons with 2 years experience completely overwhelm one with over 7 years training. Does this mean WC is effective or ineffective?

As to a year and half before sparring; I feel this is a bit long compared to “our” training. WE teach our beginners two basic counter-attacks and have them working at 1/2 -3/4 speed by the end of their 2nd class. Sure they know what is coming at them but not when or which side but they are still working at a speed they can handle and are learning about timing and distance. We have them sparring with-in 3-6 months depending on the individual’s ability. As to watching the advance class sparring we all spar together. There is nothing secret or hidden. Many times we may not allow a lower trained person work certain things in sparring but for the most part if they ask about a movement or usage and have worked it they are allowed to spar with it. I’m not concerned about perfection in sparring but effectiveness and efficiency and it doesn’t take the average person 1/12 years to be ready for that.

Something I stress to all who train with me. Do not take what I say or do as being the truth. It may be “my” truth but it isn’t your truth. YOU have got to train it, spar it, and experience it. Only then can it be your truth.

Danny

 

[shesulsa]

I personally don't know enough about WC, your teacher, his school to really say I don't approve of his teaching method nor speak to what he expects of you - he could be testing your patience, your trust .... I know you said you're not there to learn an art, but he could be a staunch traditionalist.

Although, I must say I share Blindside's concern that you won't have anything thrown at you for 1.5 years.

I *really* think you should talk to your instructor and share with him your training goals (you said self-defense) and your concerns and see what he has to say.

 

[JBrainard]

What do you guys think ?

Wing Chun is a great self defense martial art. Maybe look for a school with a different approach to sparring? When I trained in WC back in the day, I was sparing within the first week.
Good luck.
~JB

 

[jks9199]

I'm not going to try to assess this teacher's methods when all I've got to go on is a new student's description.

"Sparring" is not fighting. And not all "sparring" is the same. Sparring, done right, is simply one method of practicing the learned techniques with an opponent. I don't let students free spar until they've developed some of the techniques so that they've got something to spar with; otherwise, it's just two people trying to pound on each other. But -- from almost day one, they're practicing the techniques with a partner at appropriate times, and at varying degrees of resistance.

Now, I am curious about the "can't even watch advanced classes" aspect... First, I don't teach "basic" and "advanced" classes; I teach one class, and expect students to learn at an appropriate level. But I have had to tell some students that they shouldn't (how can I really enforce a can't?) watch some TV shows or movies, or play some of the semi-martial arts video games. Why? Because they were picking up bad habits... So it's possible that the instructor here doesn't want new students immitating some of the things they see advanced students do without understanding.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I'll support the 'trust your gut' camp on this one. You've got some sort of radar going off...look hard at why, and while you're at it why not try an intro at a few other schools in town?

 

[Primal Kuen]

apreciate the feedback...

The instructor does hold the advanced classes at a different time...it's closed to the public and even us less advanced students.

we do do some pak sau drills...things like that. I do'nt know...I hate to quit.

you know I have seen some advanced students doing chi sau (not sparring ) outside the school prior to their class...and it looked awesome. BUT what I want to do is throw on some head gear and gloves , act like the dumb *** at the bar, and come at them "street style" ...and hope they beat the **** out of me. But no-one has taken me up...or really it's not allowed.

It sucks, but I think I'll talk to the sifu once more, and if the school cannot demonstrate it's effectiveness I think I'll take my money elswhere.

I want to make it clear that I respect the sifu and the school, and appriciate the idea of learning an art that has been passed down for so long in a traditional way like it's being taught here.

 

[Bigshadow]

I need some advice...
we are not allowed to spar, we are not even allowed to WATCH the advanced classes in which sparring takes place. Everything learned at this point is in slow motion...sparring / fighting is prohibited until blue sash, which is about 1 1/2 years away !

If you train in slow motion and focus on correctness you will learn faster. Once you have correct technique, you will probably be instructed to ramp it up and make it fast.

I scrape the bottom of the barrel to be able to do this, and it's frustrating to not even be allowed to see WC in action ( via the advanced classes etc. ) you know what I mean ?

It is understood. You must be careful here, though. Who knows more, your teacher or you? You either need to trust your teacher or find another one, IMO.

 

[Bigshadow]

and if the school cannot demonstrate it's effectiveness I think I'll take my money elswhere.

No offense intended, but, first you need to be sure you know what "effectiveness" looks like.

 

[Primal Kuen]

that's true also...

 

[shesulsa]

To be perfectly honest with you - and I don't want to start an argument, debate or make you think I'm better than you are - the whole "prove to me your art is street effective" mentality won't go ever well with traditional artists. If I felt I'd been clear about how our class is structured and a newbie came at me with that, I'd show him the door without ceremony. Many instructors of traditional styles feel they don't have anything to prove.

If you want to be able to don gear and get beat the crap out of right off the bat, I would indeed suggest you find another school. You said you weren't impatient to get to the real deal, but everything you're typing says you are - is this something you're aware of?

 

[Bigshadow]

that's true also...

Try not to be bummed and confused over it. An alternative is maybe contact some WC folks privately regarding your sifu and get a feel for how he is perceived in the WC community. Sometimes you have do a little homework on the person before starting with them. Maybe find out who his teacher is and his teacher's peers and ask questions in the WC community about them.

Just gather some info first before making any decisions.

 

[shesulsa]

Try not to be bummed and confused over it. An alternative is maybe contact some WC folks privately regarding your sifu and get a feel for how he is perceived in the WC community. Sometimes you have do a little homework on the person before starting with them. Maybe find out who his teacher is and his teacher's peers and ask questions in the WC community about them.

Just gather some info first before making any decisions.

Good advice!

 

[theletch1]

Try not to be bummed and confused over it. An alternative is maybe contact some WC folks privately regarding your sifu and get a feel for how he is perceived in the WC community. Sometimes you have do a little homework on the person before starting with them. Maybe find out who his teacher is and his teacher's peers and ask questions in the WC community about them.

Just gather some info first before making any decisions.

Don't regard this suggestion as snooping either. Ideally this would have been done before you ever began classes but some things are just learned over time. Who knows, you may find out that you're with the best of the best for your art in your area and realize that waiting is worth it.

 

[Primal Kuen]

perhaps I am being impatient after all...

I was invited to a mma school the other night and this dude was just drilling me about "real fighting" etc. I was allowed to get in the ring with a Judo/BJJ student who had been there 6 months. I was impressed.

I was'nt attempting wing chun techniques, obviously I don't know enough yet...but I'm no slouch at 6'2 and 215...and this dude threw me, put me in 2 arm bars and a triangle choke that damn neer put me to sleep.

I can't be doing all that because of some injuries, so I'm not saying I want to do mma now...but the point is these guys learn to fight effectively quickly . and with this instructor barking in my ear....
I guess it made me think about how I was spending my money, knowing I myself am prohibited from sparring for 1.5 years...

impatience or not..you got to agree thats one hell of a leap of faith in this school is it not ?

 

[Bigshadow]

perhaps I am being impatient after all...

I was invited to a mma school the other night and this dude was just drilling me about "real fighting" etc. I was allowed to get in the ring with a Judo/BJJ student who had been there 6 months. I was impressed.

Well, It is easy to impress those who do not yet have the skill or knowledge. No offense intended. I say the same thing with regards to computer users (me being a software engineer).

impatience or not..you got to agree thats one hell of a leap of faith in this school is it not ?

It is always a leap of faith. Paitence is a virtue.