Budoiko Ryu & Ninjutsu history (was Frauds,Fakes,Conman,Scam artists)

[HeisaaReborn]

JCA,

We'll do this the martial way if you would like. Feel free to email your questions directly to my master on the website that you have so freely posted from and he will answer you. He is the one that speaks and writes Japanese and is belted in five arts. If you are not sure you should ask master how to handle it and do what he/she says. I have always been taught that is what masters are there for and mine has never been inaccessible to you. I am just a humble junior ranking student to your dan ranking sir.

Budo,

 

[Chris Parker]

Heisaa,

Thank you for your invitation to address the questions to your master (husband) directly, that shows more integrity than others have shown here. However, I would make a few points. You are the one who has positioned yourself here as a form of representative, and I personnally have yet get some answers to some of my basic questions form other threads, is there any movement on that front? And I don't know that Jadecloud, if he takes up the offer, is really going to simply "ask master how to handle it and do what he/she says". Loyalty is to be admired, but that form of blind loyalty when this many issues are raised is a little unwarranted. Particularly if it is not his particular master...

 

[HeisaaReborn]

Sorry typo - it was supposed to say ask YOUR master not master. I was simply saying that he should ask his master how to proceed and if he has an issue and his master feels that his concerns are legitimate enough than he is free to contact him. Basically the reason much of this is not going to be addressed is not going to be addressed on a public forum. I can tell you that JCAs translations would be right and he would have a valid point if he were translating in the right context. Therefore I can understand his concern. That is why this concern should be brought from master to master and not be handled student to master. I was wrong for that and bit off more than I could chew admittedly. This is a lesson learned in humility. I do take issue with the venom that was spewed on the other end but I think if he opens his mind and picks up the phone or email we will be able to put the past behind us.

Budo,

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sorry typo - it was supposed to say ask YOUR master not master. I was simply saying that he should ask his master how to proceed and if he has an issue and his master feels that his concerns are legitimate enough than he is free to contact him. Basically the reason much of this is not going to be addressed is not going to be addressed on a public forum. I can tell you that JCAs translations would be right and he would have a valid point if he were translating in the right context. Therefore I can understand his concern. That is why this concern should be brought from master to master and not be handled student to master. I was wrong for that and bit off more than I could chew admittedly. This is a lesson learned in humility. I do take issue with the venom that was spewed on the other end but I think if he opens his mind and picks up the phone or email we will be able to put the past behind us.

Budo,

OK, define master.

The term is subjective actually many people on this site have many many years in a style or various styles and do not refer to themselves as a master. My taiji sifu has over 50 years in Taiji and is a student of a rather well respected sifu and he does not call himself or refer to himself as a master nor did his sifu. My taiji sifu does not even like being called master; it is sifu or his first name and anyone can ask him anything. My Sanda sifu has around 30 years or more in Sanda and does not call himself a master and I have over 30 years in MA and over 17 in CMA and over 15 in Taiji and do not call myself a master of anything.

So what is a master? And why must one be a master to contact your master? Am I missing something here?

In the beginners mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few -- Shunryu Suzuki

 

[Chris Parker]

I don't think these are JCA's teachers concerns, they are his based on his understanding and the way you have presented your group here. So asking his teacher isn't really relevant, as the answers he (and I) are requesting can really only come from you or your teacher/master/husband. If you don't want this addressed on a public forum, why not send him a private message to allay any misunderstandings? With the translations, Jadecloud is far better with the Japanese language than I am, and his wife is a native speaker of the tongue, but what I saw appeared far from authentic from the various scrolls, documents, menkyo, calligraphy, and other examples I have seen over the years, and saying that his translations "would be right and he would have a valid point if he were translating in the right context" doesn't really make sense. Are you saying that the Japanese in the document is accurate and we don't understand the context, or are you admiting that it is not exactly kosher (as you seem to imply moments later by saying you may have bitten off more than you could chew)? And this issue was brought to us by you, that is how we are addressing it here. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "master to master". Are you implying that someone of your experience shouldn't have to answer his or my questions as you are ranked below us and we should be asking someone higher? Because you are the one who came here, deliberately or not, as a representative of your system. So unless someone else from your group joins us as well (more than welcome!), you are our source.

Oh, and finally, there has been no venom that I have seen. Believe me, you have been treated with absolute kid gloves, with even more gentleness than you would recieve in any other forum. So if you could open your mind and realise that we are intrigued by where your "ninjutsu" comes from, and naturally have questions which want answers, then maybe we could all relax a bit more and see what e can get from each other.

 

[HeisaaReborn]

OK, define master.

The term is subjective actually many people on this site have many many years in a style or various styles and do not refer to themselves as a master. My taiji sifu has over 50 years in Taiji and is a student of a rather well respected sifu and he does not call himself or refer to himself as a master nor did his sifu. My taiji sifu does not even like being called master; it is sifu or his first name and anyone can ask him anything. My Sanda sifu has around 30 years or more in Sanda and does not call himself a master and I have over 30 years in MA and over 17 in CMA and over 15 in Taiji and do not call myself a master of anything.

So what is a master? And why must one be a master to contact your master? Am I missing something here?

For me master is a very subjective term - I am using it in this context as the teacher I trust and respect and suboordinate to. I know there are official definitions but they vary from art to art. A couple days ago someone called my master a fraud. My master also happens to be my husband. I made the mistake of jumping in. I should not have I was in over my head and did not do my Ryu well. I am making the assumption that the person on the other end of this that is challenging a master is of "master rank" or the less subjective meaning. I know what Mr Parker is as far as rank and have developed respect for the two of you. I have learned there is a reason students should not get into it with someone that is above there level. I should have simply informed my master and allowed him to deal with it. This is a lesson in humility for me. So in all of that to get this straightened out I invited the person who was making the attack to simply call or email master to master instead of master to kyu and ask the questions of someone he could joust with on his own level. I was not saying that he needed to be a master to call I was simply giving him the benefit of the doubt from the educated with which he speaks.

Budo,

 

[HeisaaReborn]

I don't think these are JCA's teachers concerns, they are his based on his understanding and the way you have presented your group here. So asking his teacher isn't really relevant, as the answers he (and I) are requesting can really only come from you or your teacher/master/husband. If you don't want this addressed on a public forum, why not send him a private message to allay any misunderstandings? With the translations, Jadecloud is far better with the Japanese language than I am, and his wife is a native speaker of the tongue, but what I saw appeared far from authentic from the various scrolls, documents, menkyo, calligraphy, and other examples I have seen over the years, and saying that his translations "would be right and he would have a valid point if he were translating in the right context" doesn't really make sense. Are you saying that the Japanese in the document is accurate and we don't understand the context, or are you admiting that it is not exactly kosher (as you seem to imply moments later by saying you may have bitten off more than you could chew)? And this issue was brought to us by you, that is how we are addressing it here. I'm not sure what you mean when you say "master to master". Are you implying that someone of your experience shouldn't have to answer his or my questions as you are ranked below us and we should be asking someone higher? Because you are the one who came here, deliberately or not, as a representative of your system. So unless someone else from your group joins us as well (more than welcome!), you are our source.

Oh, and finally, there has been no venom that I have seen. Believe me, you have been treated with absolute kid gloves, with even more gentleness than you would recieve in any other forum. So if you could open your mind and realise that we are intrigued by where your "ninjutsu" comes from, and naturally have questions which want answers, then maybe we could all relax a bit more and see what e can get from each other.

OK, no problem. I agree a couple of you have had no venom and have been very nice but a couple of days ago it got pretty ugly. What I was saying is the former that JCA and his wife did not understand the context in which the name of our Ryu is written. Which I know that Ryu is not really the correct word as it is not one of the 9 it is a subdivision and I cannot remember for me what that word is right now but I probably will after I hit send. The name is written a little bit differently than what JCA was getting at and no, we are not PMing or typing it somewhere than cut and pasted on to a public forum. It is something I am not allowed to do. Since JCA can read Japanese he would know the rest of that is the oath says and he would understand. What I feel comfortable representing is what we do on a day to day basis - I know OUR history as far our family but I am very uncomfortable getting into that gray area. I would love to discuss the arts and how they can flow with each other and learn from that but please lets keep this discussion where it belongs above my pay grade.

Budo,

 

[Chris Parker]

Heisaa,

I get the feeling that you are being overly defensive because the teacher in question is your husband. While it is natural and admirable that you want to defend him, you must realise that we have no such emotional connection and are simply asking the same questions we would ask anyone who came on here with the same scant and highly suspect evidence. This is not an attack, it is simply an attempt to get to the truth of the matter, in this case, the validity of the Ninjutsu claims.

I would stress that, if you are refering to JCAs translation and take on the documents presented to us, that was not calling your husband a fraud, it was stating a fairly expert opinion on presented evidence. You have then taken that as an attack, equating a frankly very dodgy piece of paper as his entire credibility. All JCA said was that the document was not legit, not that your husband wasn't. The greatest inference you could take was that the Ninjutsu aspect he taught was not entirely legit, no comment of the other arts were mentioned. And if this is something you say you don't regularly teach or present in your school, then it isn't something to focus on.

Unfortunately, the teacher in question is your husband. And I could make quite a number of comments about your psychological realtionship and it's bearing here, but that most certainly is not for the public forum setting. Suffice to say your wording is quite telling. So I know that you won't question him yourself, no matter what we say, or indeed how compelling, supported, true, accurate, or convincing our arguments are, and that you are even less likely to bring him questions from us. That's fine. We're not here to be your therapist. We are here to learn from each other and assist others as much as we can.

And with that said, if you are not willing to represent your art, nor be open to the possibility that your husband may or may not have mislead you and others (deliberately or not), I don't think we're going to get very far here.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi, Heisaa,

This is a gentle one... mostly.

OK, no problem. I agree a couple of you have had no venom and have been very nice but a couple of days ago it got pretty ugly. What I was saying is the former that JCA and his wife did not understand the context in which the name of our Ryu is written. Which I know that Ryu is not really the correct word as it is not one of the 9 it is a subdivision and I cannot remember for me what that word is right now but I probably will after I hit send.

If I'm understanding you, then, yes, ryu is the correct word. It is often translated as school, or style, but more accurately means "flow" (for those interested, it is also pronounced "nagare" - [nah-gah-ray]). The concept is the knowledge and experience "flows" from one generation to another, from teacher to student, utilising a method known as Isshi Soden. As for "one of the 9", that only refers to the schools of the Bujinkan. Unless you are claiming to have come from them (and I don't think you are), then the 9 ryu don't apply to you. Go back to the other thread where we dealt with history for that one.

The name is written a little bit differently than what JCA was getting at and no, we are not PMing or typing it somewhere than cut and pasted on to a public forum. It is something I am not allowed to do.

I think the concern is more that the document in question doesn't fit any method of writing Japanese that would be recognised by any Japanese person at all.

Since JCA can read Japanese he would know the rest of that is the oath says and he would understand. What I feel comfortable representing is what we do on a day to day basis - I know OUR history as far our family but I am very uncomfortable getting into that gray area.

But where do you get that history? Is it just from your husband? Unfortunately, that would not be enough for us to accept with the major issues already encountered with documentation, history etc., although I can understand why it is good enough for you. Please read some good reference books and truly look objectively to what you are being told, both by your husband, and by us here.

I would love to discuss the arts and how they can flow with each other and learn from that but please lets keep this discussion where it belongs above my pay grade.

Discussion is always welcome. But you need to recognise that we will not just accept things because someone writes it with nothing substancial to back it up. Objectivity is the key.

Budo,

 

[Xue Sheng]

For me master is a very subjective term - I am using it in this context as the teacher I trust and respect and suboordinate to. I know there are official definitions but they vary from art to art. A couple days ago someone called my master a fraud. My master also happens to be my husband. I made the mistake of jumping in. I should not have I was in over my head and did not do my Ryu well. I am making the assumption that the person on the other end of this that is challenging a master is of "master rank" or the less subjective meaning. I know what Mr Parker is as far as rank and have developed respect for the two of you. I have learned there is a reason students should not get into it with someone that is above there level. I should have simply informed my master and allowed him to deal with it. This is a lesson in humility for me. So in all of that to get this straightened out I invited the person who was making the attack to simply call or email master to master instead of master to kyu and ask the questions of someone he could joust with on his own level. I was not saying that he needed to be a master to call I was simply giving him the benefit of the doubt from the educated with which he speaks.

Budo,

First I have a lot of respect for JCA, his background and knowledge on the subject. I am not sure if he would call himself a master or not, I suspect not actually, but he is, IMO, most certainly at level to discuss this with anyone he wants. And I get the feeling Chris Parker’s thoughts on this are to be trusted as well.

Second, rank, master, grandmaster or any other terminology on the subject is all pretty much subjective since there are no standards between arts as to rank and there are no belt ranks at all in others.

Third you brought this here not your master/husband so it is you who would get questions on it should there be errors in what was presented.

I wish you the best in your training :asian:

 

[HeisaaReborn]

First I have a lot of respect for JCA, his background and knowledge on the subject. I am not sure if he would call himself a master or not, I suspect not actually, but he is, IMO, most certainly at level to discuss this with anyone he wants. And I get the feeling Chris Parker’s thoughts on this are to be trusted as well.

Second, rank, master, grandmaster or any other terminology on the subject is all pretty much subjective since there are no standards between arts as to rank and there are no belt ranks at all in others.

Third you brought this here not your master/husband so it is you who would get questions on it should there be errors in what was presented.

I wish you the best in your training :asian:

Again it was not me who brought those certificates in. I was talking about our experiences, my training experience, and the experience of running a school. I have questioned him on it. I have gotten the answers. I am satisfied. Secondly, I have been there when native Japanese who are friends AND train in the arts have read those certificates aloud for the first time and have no problem.

On the other hand I can see your concern. It is valid considering you don't know me. So let me tell you a little bit about myself. I am a SSG in the Army Reserve who has been over to Iraq done my part for my country and come home. I worked with the detainees at Camp Bucca and was one of the ten medics to their three thousand for six months before we got reinforced. I am not exactly a weaping willow. Especially when you take into account that I got my rocker at 25 years old. I only started training with him after we started a serious relationship and it brought the relationship closer. Probably the hardest part of our training together is in private training I tend to be a little more obstinate than your average group student. I'm working on that. It took a lot of humility to remember that in training I wasn't the Army SSG.

We did go through much psychological testing and counseling as well as religious counseling through our Church as well so I can promise you we really do not have psychological element in our relationship that is a problem. (You can probably guess which Church but I don't want to make this about religion)

I have seen over the years that through the mental and spiritual aspect of this the meditation and "finger yoga" because I can't spell kyujyin (some help here would be nice) I literally have very little pain when I used to be in every day agony after some of the residual problems from a seizure disorder caused by Iraq. He has also beaten a terminal prognosis. If not completely he at least added 30 years or so to his life. That condition is also listed on the school website and we are very active in fundraising for that organization. But this is all in addition - I just didn't want anyone to get the wrong idea that I was some student that got taken advantage of by a master.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Again it was not me who brought those certificates in. I was talking about our experiences, my training experience, and the experience of running a school. I have questioned him on it. I have gotten the answers. I am satisfied. Secondly, I have been there when native Japanese who are friends AND train in the arts have read those certificates aloud for the first time and have no problem.

On the other hand I can see your concern. It is valid considering you don't know me. So let me tell you a little bit about myself. I am a SSG in the Army Reserve who has been over to Iraq done my part for my country and come home. I worked with the detainees at Camp Bucca and was one of the ten medics to their three thousand for six months before we got reinforced. I am not exactly a weaping willow. Especially when you take into account that I got my rocker at 25 years old. I only started training with him after we started a serious relationship and it brought the relationship closer. Probably the hardest part of our training together is in private training I tend to be a little more obstinate than your average group student. I'm working on that. It took a lot of humility to remember that in training I wasn't the Army SSG.

We did go through much psychological testing and counseling as well as religious counseling through our Church as well so I can promise you we really do not have psychological element in our relationship that is a problem. (You can probably guess which Church but I don't want to make this about religion)

I have seen over the years that through the mental and spiritual aspect of this the meditation and "finger yoga" because I can't spell kyujyin (some help here would be nice) I literally have very little pain when I used to be in every day agony after some of the residual problems from a seizure disorder caused by Iraq. He has also beaten a terminal prognosis. If not completely he at least added 30 years or so to his life. That condition is also listed on the school website and we are very active in fundraising for that organization. But this is all in addition - I just didn't want anyone to get the wrong idea that I was some student that got taken advantage of by a master.

No worries, I wish you well :asian:

 

[Chris Parker]

Okay, little one this time.

We did go through much psychological testing and counseling as well as religious counseling through our Church as well so I can promise you we really do not have psychological element in our relationship that is a problem. (You can probably guess which Church but I don't want to make this about religion)

Just briefly, every relationship has a psychological element, just as it has an emotional and a physical. Whether a problem is a matter of perspective. I only know what I have heard you say through this forum.

I have seen over the years that through the mental and spiritual aspect of this the meditation and "finger yoga" because I can't spell kyujyin (some help here would be nice)

Easy. Kuji. But you're probably refering to the full Kuji-in.

But this is all in addition - I just didn't want anyone to get the wrong idea that I was some student that got taken advantage of by a master.

Never thought you were. But I'm used to reading between lines.

 

[Brian King]

***Off Topic***

Heisaa wrote

“I am a SSG in the Army Reserve who has been over to Iraq done my part for my country and come home. I worked with the detainees at Camp Bucca and was one of the ten medics to their three thousand for six months before we got reinforced.”

Thank you for your service and dedication Heisaa.

I would love to hear about some of your experiences working with the detainees. Perhaps a thread in the future. The medical conditions and the sicknesses, illnesses and deceases observed and treated not to mention treating of the wounds and such that a tight crowded aggressive population incurs would be fascinating and educational.

I would also be interested in reading observations on what it was like being a female medic working with male Moslem and other male detainees.

Thank again for your service Heisaa

Regards
Brian King

 

[HeisaaReborn]

Okay, little one this time.

Never thought you were. But I'm used to reading between lines

Thank you - like I said - very happily married times three months - so still honeymooning. Also just moved down here to the Keys. Neither one of us are exactly kids though so we both knew exactly what we were getting into. You are right there is a psychological element to every relationship and I would say Especially marriage. However are FOCUS testing was right on point.

 

[HeisaaReborn]

So I did some homework since you are right. I have not given enough resources to argue some of my points. One point that was made earlier by someone here was that I had said that the Ninja started off as peasants and farmers and were later joined by defunct or defecting Samurai. This was a point of contention. This is from the website of a Bujinkan 15th Dan, http://www.pabujinkanbarndojo.com/Ninjutsu/History.asp, named Ed Martin.

In the main Ninjutsu was the inevitable reaction to the attempts of Japan's nobility to create a working national government. This led to some very nasty wars among the nobility over who lead the emerging government and what today would be considered "police actions" against those content with the status quo. This has happened in most countries at one time or another but in Japan events took the road less traveled, creating a unique history that starts in the Koga and Iga regions of central Japan.
Thinly populated, mountainous (which favors the defense) and distant from the major cultural centers the Iga and Koga regions were populated by clans of relatively independent peasants, mystics seeking enlightenment, and various soldiers, (some from as far away from China) who were on the wrong side of the last war.

Also another point of contention someone told me that Ninjutsu was never illegalized. Well same website (which by the way was the second one I looked at)

But in the end the isolation and disunity condemned them to defeat. By the 17th century an increasingly united Japan allowed an increasingly unified nobility to act decisively. The Princes declared the knowing of Ninjutsu, or knowing anyone trained in Ninjutsu a capital offense. Bureaucrats opined there could be no pardon or quarter was given. Better innocent deaths than a live Ninja. By the early 18th century the hunt was in full force. Whole villages were destroyed as clans and Ryu were hunted into extinction. By end of the 18th century Ninjutsu was broken as a political and cultural force.
At this moment of victory Japan's leaders stopped the persecution of the Ninja. After initially shutting out the west, Japan's elites chose to embrace modernization. Industrializing the nation became job one. As the social and cultural fabric of Japan morphed from feudal to modern Ninjutsu and it practitioners began appearing as quaint relics of an earlier era. Since they no longer mattered they were no longer hunted. Some even questioned if they had ever existed at all.

And while you are right CP the Samurai were not PAID to do it excuse me I did misspeak there - the Samurai were probably the ones doing most of the enforcing if we look at the period of history.

However this statement is a major point of contention among bujinkan and many Ryus or Ryuhas or Clans however you may refer to them.

After finding Toshitsugu Takamatsu he began training as Takamatsu's only student and after 15 years was recognized by Takamatsu as the only other individual on earth fully trained in the art of Ninjutsu.

This may be a case that the victor gets to write the history books. Somehow I doubt though that a warrior who had killed more men by the time he was 20 to take Menyko for all 9 Ryus was quite interested in stopping along the way and passing out certificates.

It also does not mean that there were not others that were not taught most of the other Ryus or concentrations in the other Ryus.

These are just a couple of things I will continue researching and come back with more.

 

[HeisaaReborn]

Oh and I looked at this from Don Roley that was also pointed out yesterday:

There are martial arts in Japan that have made the effort to keep current with the way things are done, but they have largely dropped the old titles. A current leader of a self defense art might call his school an institute, issue qualifications for teaching under a membership program and pass along the title of director to a chosen successor. In many ways, the needs that the ryuha system were made to address have been met. But it is strange to see so many non-Japanese with no link or knowledge of Japan use the term "soke" and call what they do with a "-ryu" attached to the end while the Japanese themselves have largely abandoned the terms. Few outside of those with a link to the past seem to use it now, and that disqualifies 99 percent of the non-Japanese using the term today.

First he did not say all. Second he said non-Japanese. Third he is speaking about those "without a link to the past." His master trained under under Takamatsu Sensei. While I cannot say for certain how many of the 9 Ryus were learned, etc. I can say that Hatsumi Sensei was given the Menyko for the Ryu under which we stem and that is respected. Our Shidoshi was still given Shidoshi rank in the times spoken about above where Ninjutsu was all but dead, secretive, and Bujinkan was not even created yet.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Oh and I looked at this from Don Roley that was also pointed out yesterday:



First he did not say all. Second he said non-Japanese. Third he is speaking about those "without a link to the past." His master trained under under Takamatsu Sensei. While I cannot say for certain how many of the 9 Ryus were learned, etc. I can say that Hatsumi Sensei was given the Menyko for the Ryu under which we stem and that is respected. Our Shidoshi was still given Shidoshi rank in the times spoken about above where Ninjutsu was all but dead, secretive, and Bujinkan was not even created yet.

ummm most unfortunately Don doesn't post here anymore and hasn't for quite sometime

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Therefore I can understand his concern. That is why this concern should be brought from master to master and not be handled student to master.

My current teacher is in Chinese internal arts so he does not care about Japanese arts so much. My teacher who I trained with in Japan was Kemei Ohno 7th dan at Soka dojo if you need information concerning him you can ask his past teacher Shoto Tanemura in Saitama,Japan at Genbukan.org.

I can tell you that JCAs translations would be right and he would have a valid point if he were translating in the right context.

I looked at the Ninjutsu certficate. I wrote what was wrong with it.
Devoid of any social meaning I translated it as is. It is like you saying 1+1=3 and me correcting it 1+1=2.

I think if he opens his mind and picks up the phone or email we will be able to put the past behind us.

Hey I could be wrong with my Japanese sooo I asked a native to be sure and the native is thinking the same I tend to believe the native.

With the translations, Jadecloud is far better with the Japanese language than I am

But Chris your knowledge of history is way better than mine on Japanese history I got stuck with a Japanese girl who hates history!! I guess we could ask Saitama Steve who is here or anyone on E-budo Don Roley loves topics like this.

I am not sure if he would call himself a master or not, I suspect not actually, but he is, IMO, most certainly at level to discuss this with anyone he wants. And

I could never call myself master I feels so weird doing it. When one my students called me Sifu I thought oh you mean my teacher haha.

I have been there when native Japanese who are friends AND train in the arts have read those certificates aloud for the first time and have no problem.

Japanese can read it but it just looks odd to them. The Japanese looks kinda of like this does in English:ball he up he picked. Yes we can read the sentence and make sense of it but it is not correct sentence as He picked up the ball. It is that type easy sentences that the average Japanese is not going to mess up same as an American who would write that sentence.

First he did not say all

But the 1 percent is for people like Don Draeger who has Menkyo Kaiden from legit Koryu schools or Karl Friday and anyone else at Koryu.com

But you can ask Don himself what he meant if you like he is at E-budo.

 

[HeisaaReborn]

Oh and I looked at this from Don Roley that was also pointed out yesterday:



First he did not say all. Second he said non-Japanese. Third he is speaking about those "without a link to the past." His master trained under under Takamatsu Sensei. While I cannot say for certain how many of the 9 Ryus were learned, etc. I can say that Hatsumi Sensei was given the Menyko for the Ryu under which we stem and that is respected. Our Shidoshi was still given Shidoshi rank in the times spoken about above where Ninjutsu was all but dead, secretive, and Bujinkan was not even created yet.

I didn't mean to say he had said it yesterday but yesterday someone had pointed out something he had said so I looked him up.