Break from your instructor..where do you go?

[Flying Crane]

From an instructors POV its not as simply as that. When I graded to 2nd dan I felt there was no point in grading further as the costs were extremly high and all you get is to learn a few more patterns - however, as an instructor (with which I make my living) things change slightly - I guess its a case of two things:
1. Keeping up with the Jones - as in my area, theres TKD clubs a plenty.. many with 5th, 6th dans etc (both WTF & ITF based/ITF) - so from a business POV you gotta keep up
2. the main reason however if for your students - you need to keep training and therefore grade, because your students need to grade. My most senior students are now 2nd dans - the grade at which, at one point I thought Id never go beyond.

Does it matter personally.. no, but there is some reasoning in needing to promote and if I gotta, Id rather do it properly, but dont wanna have to bend and scrape to do so - Im happy to pay, pass or fail - as long as its fair.

Stuart

These sound like largely business-side decisions. But I still question the idea of being independent, and still asking for promotions from some other org. How is that even justified? Either you are independent, or you are not. Either you belong to an org., or you do not. I don't see how you can have both.

Sounds like it clearly does happen. But I don't get it. I think it's a weird twist to put on rank, and personally, it would make me question the value of the rank.

If I went to an instructor who claimed X rank, given by X org., and yet was not a member of X org, nor a student of the Org representative who gave the rank, then I'd say, "OK, what is your REAL rank? Who did you REALLY study under, and to what level did he rank you?"

but that's just me. Maybe I tend to over-analyze things.

 

[StuartA]

These sound like largely business-side decisions.

Indeed.

But I still question the idea of being independent, and still asking for promotions from some other org.

No, promotions are by people within an org (or independant), not the org themselves. Should one ask, you say something like "I graded under Master So & so", not the org name.

How is that even justified?

Because advancing in rank shouldnt have anything to do with being part of a particular org! If i wait 10 years as a 2nd degree, know all thats required by virtually all orgs.. why shouldnt I progress!

Either you are independent, or you are not.

What has testing your level got to do with who you are part of.. if you are decent enough to promote, why should not being part of a group curtail that! Of course, there are independant Masters about (CK Choi for example).. but he is 5,000 miles away!

Like it or not, within TKD, most (though not all) look at grade before knowledge. Personally, its not a big issue to me as I look the other way around and thats why I see many 6th/7th/8th dans with lower levels than some 2nd/3rd/4th dans I know.. funny how these 2nd/3rd/4th dans are no longer part of major orgs however!

Sorry, but thats just the way it is - I dont agree with it, but again, thats how it is my friend! Its a flawed system I had to wise up to when I started teaching!

Stuart

 

[IcemanSK]

Here's a little different perspective: at what point does it no longer matter? I suppose the answer would be unique to the person. But once someone reaches, say, 4th or 5th, would it matter if they never ranked higher than that? How much "credibility" in the martial arts world is really gained by grading higher than that? A fourth ought to be very solid in his training and knowledge. I think if he keeps training but never grades again, what would it really matter? Does rank above that level really carry any significance?

If someone at that level went solo, would there really be any problem with that? Does someone always need to have an affiliation, a source of potential higher rank? Is that really important?

That is a great question....does it still matter after 4th, 5th or 6th dan? I think for quite a while owning your own school it doesn't really matter. I think that if a student stays with you for 20 or more years, you'd want to test her to a high level as well.

StuartA has a great point on this. I've got more training time than some instructors in my town. Yet, they outrank me. Like it or not, rank is a selling point. And the ability to test students to a higher rank when time comes is important.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think that if a student stays with you for 20 or more years, you'd want to test her to a high level as well, I'd think.

I know that a lot of people feel this way, but how about teaching a new idea: at some point, rank really doesn't matter. So let's say I someday reach the level of 5th, and go solo. I run my own show, for better or for worse, and that means I can't rank anyone any higher than I have reached myself, based on the standards that I have set. But if any of my student should reach that level, hopefully by then the would understand that really, it doesn't matter. Rank becomes very nebulous and perhaps even meaningless beyond that level. So why waste energy chasing after it? Don't.

I've mentioned this before in the past in these threads, and I'll bring it up again. I do see value in a ranking system. I do also see a lot of abuse and unrealistic importance placed on the system. Perhaps a better way to modify the ranking system would be to have only two levels of black belt: Black Belt Non-Instructor Status, and Black Belt Instructor Status. That would be the end of formal ranking. Once you reach that level, there should be no further carrots to chase. If you reach that level and still need a shiny medal or a cookie or a carrot to chase in order to inspire you to keep training and growing, then perhaps you don't really deserve the rank that you have.

Those are my thoughts on it, anyway. I just think there is a lot of rank-chasing going on, and it is so meaningless, and I also understand that in some cases it is really really expensive as well. I don't think anybody needs to do that, but it does require the inner strength to step away and stand on your own two feet.

 

[Flying Crane]

No, promotions are by people within an org (or independant), not the org themselves. Should one ask, you say something like "I graded under Master So & so", not the org name.

OK, that's an important bit of information. However, did the person TRAIN under master So and So? If such Master graded him, I would hope he also trained under him. Maybe the TKD world is comfortable with a more flexible relationship, but for me, I would not accept rank from someone who I did not actually train under, and have a strong student-teacher relationship.

Because advancing in rank shouldnt have anything to do with being part of a particular org! If i wait 10 years as a 2nd degree, know all thats required by virtually all orgs.. why shouldnt I progress!

I agree. But by having an Org., and by stressing the importance of belonging to the Org., does that not put the authority in the Org? If not, then why have it? Why not just push for the relationship with X teacher? Seems to me that the student/teacher relationship is what is really important, and that is where ranking ought to come from.

Sorry, but thats just the way it is - I dont agree with it, but again, thats how it is my friend! Its a flawed system I had to wise up to when I started teaching!

Stuart

fair enough, I'm just trying to understand the scenario here, being not a TKD guy myself.

 

[StuartA]

Perhaps a better way to modify the ranking system would be to have only two levels of black belt: Black Belt Non-Instructor Status, and Black Belt Instructor Status. That would be the end of formal ranking. Once you reach that level, there should be no further carrots to chase.

Thats a great idea.. unfortunatly its not how it works OR ever will work.. sometimes you just cant swin against the stream.. as simple as that really. of course, that depends on what you are doing, as a student, fine.. as an instructor making a living, sadly, not so fine. I was content with my 3rd dan and was promoted to 4th due to my knowledge and ability ... I never requested it!

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

OK, that's an important bit of information. However, did the person TRAIN under master So and So? If such Master graded him, I would hope he also trained under him.

Sorry, but most TKD organisations are graded by chief instructors.. many do not run clubs, most of the gradees have only ever done courses under them (BB patterns courses for example). A grading is a test.. you either cut the mustard (by the required standard of the examiners) or you dont! Again, thats the reality!

Maybe the TKD world is comfortable with a more flexible relationship, but for me, I would not accept rank from someone who I did not actually train under, and have a strong student-teacher relationship.

Many ITF'ers stay with the org so their certs are signed by (previously) the General & now his son (in ITF-C's case).. but they were never present at the gradings!!!

I agree. But by having an Org., and by stressing the importance of belonging to the Org., does that not put the authority in the Org? If not, then why have it? Why not just push for the relationship with X teacher? Seems to me that the student/teacher relationship is what is really important, and that is where ranking ought to come from.

An org is an authority of themselves... not TKD (though they may think they are).. I've no problems with a a student/teach/master relationship.. in fact I wish there were more, but sadly, mass training has eradicated that.. in TKD it never really exsisted TBH. EG. My instructor is a 6th degree with nearly 50 years training.. he is part of an org.. he is not allowed to grade BBs while in that org.. so how the the student/instructor relationship fit in there? he is the one person in the whole world I would most like to grade me.. unfortunatly, for whatever reason, he cannot!

fair enough, I'm just trying to understand the scenario here, being not a TKD guy myself.

No worries.. theres plenty in TKD I dont agree with, but sadly can do nothing about due to the way it all works.

Stuart

 

[mwd0818]

I agree with Flying Crane on the rank issue for the most part, but within a large group/style/organization, degrees within black are helpful. Black Belt - Instructor with 20 years teaching is a big difference from the guy who's been training 10 years and is just now a certified teacher. Then again, I hope that the skill is apparent and you know who your seniors are.

In any case, at some point, you train to train and get better and chasing more rank is political power at best. At worst, well, it gets bought and sold. TKD has its own issues because of its popularity and political splintering, so rank carries and loses value all the time based on who gave it to whom.

Crap? Often times, yes.

My own personal feel -

If you break away with a solid advanced rank from an organization (depends on the group, but let's say 5th or so) and keep training and teaching, you'll get better. By the time you get a student up to around that level, they should hopefully know about the real value of rank. If things continue, chances are, no one will say too much about adding another stripe to your belt as you continue to promote your students, your group and your style. If you self-promote for that reason, and have the skill to back it up, I don't care. Ranks are an arbitrary structure anyway and someone decided at some point to award a rank to themselves and then start ranking other people based on that system. Yes, the more credible the originator, the more credible one can believe the rank to be, but organizations exist to add some level of legitimacy, but it's not intrinsic by any means.

Otherwise, if you wish to ask others who are senior to you where they think you should be, I'm ok with that, but I go back to the idea that your skill matters more than your stripes. If you have the skill of a 7th but are a 4th, you are impressive. If you have the skill of a 4th but wear a 9th . . . well . . . you do the math. To ask someone else to rank you in an ideal world works, but when money or political ambitions take over, the rank can easily be meaningless.

 

[dbell]

One key thought here. Rank from a Master or kwan/federation/etc means rank in that Master's system or that organization's system. Technically, especially when talking about organizations, when you leave that Master, without his/her approval, or that organization, your rank is no longer valid in most cases within that system. You can still go out and teach what you have learned, and you can belt people in your "new" system. You shouldn't be calling it TKD, Master X's Art, etc., unless you are within their permission of doing so. So, if you are not part of an Organization's belting system anymore, or directly connected to your Master, how important is your belt in that system anyway? It is now knowledge based and your ability to pass that knowledge on to others.

Now, if you are splitting off from your Master, who is not part of a Org (or even if (s)he is), with their permission and blessing, and you stay within their guidelines, belting from there is important, and you need to continue and test with that system.

Same goes for say "TKD". If you are wanting to use the TKD label and belting scheme, you probably need to remain affiliated to be able to belt others in that system, as again technically, if you leave them, your belt means little.

Your belt just shows your knowledge within that system, based on that systems criteria. We put WAY too much emphasis on it, time requirements, etc. Study, learn, teach when you can, and grow in your arts. Don't worry about the advance belts if you split off, as technically if you split off, your belt is no longer valid anyway, in most cases.

 

[Flying Crane]

Thats a great idea.. unfortunatly its not how it works OR ever will work.. sometimes you just cant swin against the stream.. as simple as that really. of course, that depends on what you are doing, as a student, fine.. as an instructor making a living, sadly, not so fine.

true, unless you decide to REALLY split off and go it alone and do it your own way. Any teacher can decide to do that, if he really wants to. There is another member here on MT who took this idea and implemented it in his own school. He mentioned it in a thread once, and I said "hey yeah, I've been saying that for a while!" and he admitted that he got the idea from me.

You would definitely be the odd man out, and you would probably be competing against a whole lot of other guys in your neck of the woods who can all claim X degree black belt higher than you, so if you are looking to make your livlihood from teaching, you'll have some troubles. However, a whole lot of kung fu people never use belts, and it doesn't seem to get in the way. Someone's teacher says, "OK, you are good enough, you can start teaching your own students now" and that's it. People get a reputation for the quality of their teaching, and the lack of belts doesn't get in the way.

I was content with my 3rd dan and was promoted to 4th due to my knowledge and ability ... I never requested it!

Stuart

again, fair enough, and my comments here are not aimed at any individual. I'm just trying to add a different perspective, where rank is concerned. I think if everyone were willing to honestly reconsider the position of ranking in the martial arts, it could be a better thing in the end.

 

[Flying Crane]

I agree with Flying Crane on the rank issue for the most part, but within a large group/style/organization, degrees within black are helpful. Black Belt - Instructor with 20 years teaching is a big difference from the guy who's been training 10 years and is just now a certified teacher. Then again, I hope that the skill is apparent and you know who your seniors are.

I think you summed it up in the last sentence here. Sure, you all hold the same rank, but I think you would know who is your senior, and who might have things to teach you, and what kind of growth you still need. At least if you are trying to be honest with yourself, and your ego is reasonably held in check.

Again, look back at the Chinese systems that do not use belts. Everyone respects each other based on their position in the school. The "elder" student is acknowledged by the "junior" student, and that hierarchy holds. But of course this kind of relationship only grows up within a specific school where the students and teachers have been together long enough to have a solid relationship. If it was within a large org., with lots of affiliated schools scattered across the galaxy I think it would be just as muddled. Which brings me back to the importance of the direct student/teacher relationship...

 

[Flying Crane]

technically if you split off, your belt is no longer valid anyway, in most cases.

Well, I don't know how the big Orgs. look at it, but I would disagree with this on a gut level.

in my opinion, once rank is given, it is forever and cannot be retracted.

However, one's status within an org. or as a student of X teacher can fall away. So, if a student were kicked out of a school for some bad behavior, for example, I think he could still open his own school, advertise himself as X rank under X teacher, but be honest about the fact that he is no longer connected to that teacher or his org.

I think it is not deceptive to state that he reached X rank under X teacher. But he needs to be equally honest about the fact that he is no longer in good standing with that teacher or org.

 

[StuartA]

Technically, especially when talking about organizations, when you leave that Master, without his/her approval, or that organization, your rank is no longer valid in most cases within that system.

Sorry, but you can't unlearn what you have been taught! If the org (or Master) considered you (say) 4th degree level, when with them, how can they say your not just cos you are no longer with them (whether you leave in good or bad spirits) - I can (sort of ) understand if representing say a small, unknown family system of Kung-Fu.. but not an art like TKD, that TBH, really only focus's (grading wise) on the physical! Thats like saying Tito Otiz can't call himself MMA anymore cos he fell out with the UFC!

Stuart

 

[IcemanSK]

There has been a lot of great thoughts in this thread. And more questions that have been brought up.

If one is not associated with an instructor any longer (either from good terms or not) does one attach oneself to another instructor or organization? Does one not worry about rank? What did TKD pioneers do in the 60's & 70's when they left their instructor & came to a new country? How did they test for higher rank than they came with? The "magic plane" couldn't have been the case in every situation.

Like it or not, for a lot of instructors, rank is important to "keep up with the Joneses". It doesn't quanitify skill level of the holder, but it says it does to the public.

Does anyone know how rank was achieved by the early TKD instructors apart from "the magic plane?"

 

[StuartA]

true, unless you decide to REALLY split off and go it alone and do it your own way. Any teacher can decide to do that, if he really wants to.

Many have.. and some call their art a different name and designinate themselves 'head of the system'.. but are they really? Is it really different? Mostly not! I choose to not be with any TKD org cos I hate the politics, but love the art.. but I still train withs seniors, even if they cannot grade me.. but i dont train to grade, I train to improve.. but still would like oneday to move up and perhaps be recognised.. not least because in orgs, those that train less are speeding along (not that thats a motivation to me - although it may seem like it from posting this way, as its hard to get across).

You would definitely be the odd man out, and you would probably be competing against a whole lot of other guys in your neck of the woods who can all claim X degree black belt higher than you, so if you are looking to make your livlihood from teaching, you'll have some troubles.

My case in point!

However, a whole lot of kung fu people never use belts, and it doesn't seem to get in the way.

I take it you`ve never seen the politics of Kung-Fu then.. they egt along worse than TKD!

Someone's teacher says, "OK, you are good enough, you can start teaching your own students now" and that's it. People get a reputation for the quality of their teaching, and the lack of belts doesn't get in the way.

You would like to think so.. but tell me any TKD 1st or 2nd degree with such a high reputation? (or any traditional art for that matter).. I think we are discussing 'ideals' (on which we agree) against what is reality - the two differ a great deal sadly!

again, fair enough, and my comments here are not aimed at any individual. I'm just trying to add a different perspective, where rank is concerned.

Ive understood your perspective since the day I started..and agree with it.. but as I said, thats not the way it is and due to the 'nature of the beast' you can either understand or be forgotton..its due to this understanding that Ive managed to make way way 'solo' for over 10 years.. sometimes you just have to play the cards your dealt!

I think if everyone were willing to honestly reconsider the position of ranking in the martial arts, it could be a better thing in the end.

Sure.. but everyone is you, me and a few hundred others against thousands (maybe millions) who prefer rank and ego above skill and merit.. that my friend.. is the way of things... as sad as it is!

Stuart

 

[StuartA]

If one is not associated with an instructor any longer (either from good terms or not) does one attach oneself to another instructor or organization?

Depends on what you want. I know of one guy that fell out with his instructor and went solo, but joined org after org because he needed to belong to something bigger than himself! To me, TKD IS bigger than me, but its also bigger then ALL the orgs.. that said, I never fell out with my instructor and, albiet on the 'silent mode' (due to the fact he's still affiliated with the org I left), I still train with him.. not so much now a days due to my own commitments, but early on I trained as I always had done and still pop in (with no problems) from time to time. I guess its a case of 'horses for courses' - either way, its certainly easier now, on either side, than it was 10 years ago when I went solo, due to the amounts of orgs about, as well as smaller and solo instyructors and orgs that accept multi-styles etc!

Does one not worry about rank?

No - in a training/improving sense
Yes - from a business sense (and, before anyone jumps on me for saying that, I make my living from teaching, so to not put 'good business' into effect is stupid - that said, Ive never ever sold out either! - that said, it took me many years to understand the business side and more to ensure my ethics and the business side worked togethor!)

What did TKD pioneers do in the 60's & 70's when they left their instructor & came to a new country? How did they test for higher rank than they came with? The "magic plane" couldn't have been the case in every situation.

I know many left as 1st dans and ended up 6th dans, but I can only speak for the ITF side of things (even then I dont know the whole story).. but many came with Gen Choi's aproval and didnt leave the ITF until between '73 & '80's and by then they were already 7th and 8th dans. Also remember that early TKD instructors promoted a lot faster than other arts to help promote the art - not to be disrespectful as I understand the reasoning but facts are facts! The same happened in NK later on.. in a couple of years they had thousands of 4th dans and above - it discredits the training us guys do - but again, thats how it is/was!

Like it or not, for a lot of instructors, rank is important to "keep up with the Joneses". It doesn't quanitify skill level of the holder, but it says it does to the public.

Excactly

Does anyone know how rank was achieved by the early TKD instructors apart from "the magic plane?"

Apart from what i said above.. its also a 'who you know' game. For example, ITF instructors were threatened by SK if they stayed with the ITF (no entry back into SK to see their family etc.), but offered higher ranks for joinng the WTF (from what Ive heard).. same in other places.. people jump ship, bolster high grade numbers and in return get a promotion!


Stuart

 

[IcemanSK]

Depends on what you want. I know of one guy that fell out with his instructor and went solo, but joined org after org because he needed to belong to something bigger than himself! To me, TKD IS bigger than me, but its also bigger then ALL the orgs.. that said, I never fell out with my instructor and, albiet on the 'silent mode' (due to the fact he's still affiliated with the org I left), I still train with him.. not so much now a days due to my own commitments, but early on I trained as I always had done and still pop in (with no problems) from time to time. I guess its a case of 'horses for courses' - either way, its certainly easier now, on either side, than it was 10 years ago when I went solo, due to the amounts of orgs about, as well as smaller and solo instyructors and orgs that accept multi-styles etc!


No - in a training/improving sense
Yes - from a business sense (and, before anyone jumps on me for saying that, I make my living from teaching, so to not put 'good business' into effect is stupid - that said, Ive never ever sold out either! - that said, it took me many years to understand the business side and more to ensure my ethics and the business side worked togethor!)


I know many left as 1st dans and ended up 6th dans, but I can only speak for the ITF side of things (even then I dont know the whole story).. but many came with Gen Choi's aproval and didnt leave the ITF until between '73 & '80's and by then they were already 7th and 8th dans. Also remember that early TKD instructors promoted a lot faster than other arts to help promote the art - not to be disrespectful as I understand the reasoning but facts are facts! The same happened in NK later on.. in a couple of years they had thousands of 4th dans and above - it discredits the training us guys do - but again, thats how it is/was!



Excactly


Apart from what i said above.. its also a 'who you know' game. For example, ITF instructors were threatened by SK if they stayed with the ITF (no entry back into SK to see their family etc.), but offered higher ranks for joinng the WTF (from what Ive heard).. same in other places.. people jump ship, bolster high grade numbers and in return get a promotion!


Stuart

Well said Stuart. I was (and quite unsuccessfully so) just trying to reiterate the finer points of what had been brought out in the thread. Thanks for the assist!

 

[dbell]

Well, I don't know how the big Orgs. look at it, but I would disagree with this on a gut level.

in my opinion, once rank is given, it is forever and cannot be retracted.

However, one's status within an org. or as a student of X teacher can fall away. So, if a student were kicked out of a school for some bad behavior, for example, I think he could still open his own school, advertise himself as X rank under X teacher, but be honest about the fact that he is no longer connected to that teacher or his org.

I think it is not deceptive to state that he reached X rank under X teacher. But he needs to be equally honest about the fact that he is no longer in good standing with that teacher or org.

If you look back in history, rank has been taken away from people. The knowledge hasn't of course, but the ability to rank others within that system is officially over. It doesn't stop people form continuing to teach what they know, they just can't use the name of that art within that arts rules, and they can't belt in that organizations rankings. Yes, they can belt you in their system, and they can say it is comparable with XYZ, but if that person were to go to XYZ, be ready to pay for each belt with them that you didn't pay for before.

Let us say that you are a student of Kaihou-Kaze Jutsu. You make it to 3rd Dan, which in that school you are given the authority to open a school in the name of Kaihou-Kaze Jutsu. If you dishonor the "parent" school, and are not teaching to the ways of your learning, your certification may be removed, and you would not be able to teach under the name of Kaihou-Kaze Jutsu. You still have the knowledge, but you are not allowed to teach Kaihou-Kaze Jutsu as Kaihou-Kaze Jutsu.

Now, when you reach 8th Dan, you are given permission to open a school in your name or in the Kaihou-Kaze name. You separate from Kaihou-Kaze Jutsu teachings in anyway at this point, you should be renaming your school to what ever it is you are now teaching, and possibly state that it's foundation is in Kaihou-Kaze Jutsu (I would hope!!) but that it is now a variation of the same. At this point, you are no longer giving out rank in Kaihou-Kaze Jutsu, but in your "new" style.

Federation/Organization ranking came about as a way to make money for the Founders of that Federation/Organization. In reading the 13 scrolls I got from my Sensei in Hasumi Ryu Kendo, it appears the practice of charging by the parent school for branch schools to belt to various levels didn't start happening until about 1954, and that in order to keep up with the Jones next door, and initially only covered the cost of Soke and possibly other Menkyo's to show up. There was a requirement of a panel of at least 5 senior Menkyos to issue Menkyo and at Menkyo Kaiden it required the Soke to review the student/Menkyo holder (VERY few Menkyo Kaidens have been given out, and there are only two living today with it). (In the 60's when the school went to belting instead of Menkyo system the school started with a 5 Dan system, 5th being Soke, and it required a 3rd Dan or higher panel to sit on all black belts up to 2nd Dan, Soke to grade 3rd Dan and up. Current Dan system is 10 Dan at the request and pressure of the times and Japan, and up to 3rd Dan requires a panel of 4th Dan up, 4th and 5th Dan requires a panel of 6th Dan and up. 6th Dan up requires Soke. Soke of course can belt anyone at any level without a panel, but often has a panel present and listens to their input for all rankings up to 8th Dan.)

 

[dbell]

Sorry, but you can't unlearn what you have been taught! If the org (or Master) considered you (say) 4th degree level, when with them, how can they say your not just cos you are no longer with them (whether you leave in good or bad spirits) - I can (sort of ) understand if representing say a small, unknown family system of Kung-Fu.. but not an art like TKD, that TBH, really only focus's (grading wise) on the physical! Thats like saying Tito Otiz can't call himself MMA anymore cos he fell out with the UFC!

Stuart

You retain the knowledge, and you can belt a person in "your" art, but you can no longer belt in that Organization's or Master's name. You are typically stripped, by them, of that ability. In TKD, you are graded on the physical up to 4th Dan, basically, but from there on, it is more what you do and how you do it as an MA than on what you do physically. (At least from what I have seen.... True, they may, in SOME cases, teach you a new form, or have you create a new form, that doesn't go in the system, but in general from there on, it is just time, experience and money...) You can still say you are TKD, but that you are not belting in say Kukkiwon (SP?) or WTF, or ATA, or ... just in TKD "standard" or TKD "You". If that person you belted to say 3rd Dan wanted to go to Kwon events and get recognized as a 3rd Dan and wanted to belt someone at 1st Dan, under Kwon (unless they changed their ways recently) would have to test (and pay said fees) at 1st Dan, 2nd Dan and 3rd Dan to get Kwon. 3rd Dan.

 

[Flying Crane]

I take it you`ve never seen the politics of Kung-Fu then.. they egt along worse than TKD!

of course there is a lot of politics in most arts. But nevertheless, many kung fu systems have still gotten along fine without a belt system.

Sure.. but everyone is you, me and a few hundred others against thousands (maybe millions) who prefer rank and ego above skill and merit.. that my friend.. is the way of things... as sad as it is!

Stuart

I don't know that it needs to be anybody AGAINST anybody. Each person can make his own choice to do how he feels will be best. The only difficulty I see is if you want to pay your mortgage thru the earnings of your school. If your livlihood depends on the financial success of the school, then you might have difficulty. But if you are simply concerned with teaching quality martial arts, you are content to have a small number of dedicated students and you aren't concerned with making money from it, then you could simplify your methods thru a modified ranking system.

All I'm saying is, it is a valid choice that could work, if one chose to do so. Of course any choice has consequences, and you gotta recognize what those consequences are likly to be, and you've got to be comfortable with that.