Bowling for Columbine

[Master of Blades]

This place hasnt been used for a while and Im bored of being inactive so heres an interesting topic which may or may not have been discussed before.

Bowling for Columbine was recently shown in the UK for the first time on Channel 4 and I thought that it was most likely one of the best things I have seen ever. Now I realise that firearms was not the ONLY topic raised (There was a lot of racism and politics in there as well) but seeing as it was mainly firearms it is gonna go here.

What I'm asking is how you feel about the issues raised and the differance between Canada (Where no-one locks their door and they have a hell of a load of guns just half the deaths) and the USA. Also the MASSIVE Differance in Gun deaths between countries, and the whole thing about the differance between your evening news and the rest of the worlds and how you guys only show deaths and gun deaths etc. Just your general feelings on the whole documentary.


Looking forward to actually using this forum for once
:asian:

 

[Quick Sand]

I've seen it a few times and I think overall it's really well done. The only major point of caution I have to say is that any movie or documentary is made to make people see what the director wants them to see. They use Sarnia to represent a lot of the Canada stuff and that's a pretty small town. It's not really representative of much of Canada. I know lots of people, including myself, that usually do keep our doors locked for one reason or another. I'm sure some of the stuff in the States isn't fully representative either.

Overall I think it does cover a lot of issues really well. I often hate watching the news because all they ever talk about is the bad stuff that's happened today. I find it depressing. Many things are blown way out of proportion and they often make it seem like everything in the world is out to get you. Just like they talk about in the documentary.

I couldn't believe that one town that made it a law that everyone has to have a gun. I'd never live there in a million years.

Just a few of my thoughts about it.

 

[dearnis.com]

I feel the issues raised were a load of horse $#!^.
Bowling for Columbine was not a documentary, it was a propaganda piece.

http://www.bowlingfortruth.com/

http://www.moorelies.com/




(* Corrected the Links *)

 

[Rich Parsons]

I think everyone has the right to say what they think without taking away someone else's right.

I will say the following.

Micheal Moore is a low puddle scum of a jerk. He presents his opinions from such a drastic point of view. To the point that I no longer even take the man seriously.


As to M.O.B.'s comment about Canada having a lot of guns, I would like to see the statistics on this. No they may have a lot more than the U.K. so I really would like to see population number and percetage of house holds that have guns, as well as percentage of individuals.

:asian:

 

[dearnis.com]

What, Michael Moore give hard numbers instead of walmart anecdotes...I don't think so.
Let's also remember that the first of the really horrific school shooting took place in the UK. One psycho, 1, AK 47, and a school yard; the name of the town/school escapes me (this was, as I recall, in the 80s.

For some interesting perspectives on juvenile/school violence see retired Col. David Grossman's works; they really are essential mind-set studies for serious martial artists anyway.

Chad

 

[Ender]

Bowling for Columbine was a staged joke and has no business being called a documentary. It was full of lies, innuendos, and staged footage.

 

[Cruentus]

Hmmm....

I liked it...so F- U bums! :rofl: Kidding about the F-U bums part...not kidding about the I liked it part.

What I have been thinking about when reading your responses is a few questions that you guys may or may not be able to help me with regarding Michael Moore. It seems that people don't just dislike the guy...people really hate him. I have to wonder why. I mean, I don't like a lot of people in the limelight. I don't like Rush or O'rielly. I like Kudlow and Cramer on some days, others I don't. I HATE Ann Coultier because I think that she is very illogical from what I have seen, but for the most part (and other then her), I rarely "hate" political celebraties...even if I dislike their views.

But with Moore, there are different gradients of "like," from "he's O.K." too "I love him." On the dislike side, however, the "hate" is so much more passionate.

Why...? Is it his views, his personality, the way he presents his views, his image...what? Why the extreme hate, I guess is what I am asking.

I'll state why I think why, although you guys can of course state your different reasons. I think people take him far too seriously...he asks serious questions through clowning around. I think that his opponents mistake the clowning around part with arrogence, maybe, or rather something else. I think that because people aren't sure when he's kidding or not, including his own fans, that at times he comes accrossed like an ***...when he's just F-in' around. I think bring up issues that hit home with many americans, and often in a critical manner. This mixture of hitting home with inherent problems mixed with clowning around can come accrossed as disparraging and judgemental on our Country as a whole....I think this is what angers his opponents.

Personally, I like the guy simply because he has made a career out of clowning around, and raising political questions. Hell, I wish I could make a career out of that.

Now...does he provide all the answers to our problems? Not at all. I wouldn't base my political views off his agenda, but I find him entertaining, at the least.

Why I liked the Movie: I liked the movie because of 2 important questions it raised that need to be discussed, and eventually solved. #1....why do we have a culture of violence in the U.S. that seems to far exceed that of other 1st world countries? #2 Why is it considered normal in U.S. foriegn policy to put "free trade" and short term profit above our democratic ideals, when it only causes us major problems in the long run (example: we placed Saddam Housein and Bin Ladden into power for short term gains, only to have them cause major problems on many levels for us later)?

He makes a lot of comparisons and parallels in the movie, but he does not spoon feed the answers to the audience....he admittedly does not know the answers. This I also like. This made this one of his best movies, I'd say. One complaint that I often hear about Moore is that he arrogently trys to ram his answers and ideals down the throats of his audience....he is seen as 'preachy'...however, he doesn't really attempt to do any of that regarding these questions. He leaves it up to the audience to make their conjectures.

I think that the 2 questions raised are important ones that we U.S. citizens need to really think about. They aren't "Liberal" or "conservative" issues either; I think they are issues that cut accrossed all levels of politics.

Anyways, that's my take on the movie. For those of you who didn't like it, explain specifically why. If you just don't like Michael Moore, then I would hazard to guess you didn't see it, which makes sense. But what did he do that made you hate him so much in the past?

thanks,

PAUL

 

[Jay Bell]

If you just don't like Michael Moore, then I would hazard to guess you didn't see it, which makes sense. But what did he do that made you hate him so much in the past?

As a staunch hater of Moore myself, I can wrap it up in four words:

He is a liar.

It's not that he's a liberal. It's that he lies and twists what has really happened to support his finatically liberal opinions and mindset. It's astonishing...a man makes a film trying to prove a point. Yet, to prove the point, he lies and takes most of what was 'documented' out of context to support his line of thought. So essentially, the guy is lying through his teeth about our government lying through their teeth. Absolute hypocrite.

However...I'm thinking of making a b.s. film that I can get an Oscar for in the future. Even more shocking -- countless people took the film for truth without ever thinking of looking into his claims.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Jay Bell
As a staunch hater of Moore myself, I can wrap it up in four words:

He is a liar.

It's not that he's a liberal. It's that he lies and twists what has really happened to support his finatically liberal opinions and mindset. It's astonishing...a man makes a film trying to prove a point. Yet, to prove the point, he lies and takes most of what was 'documented' out of context to support his line of thought. So essentially, the guy is lying through his teeth about our government lying through their teeth. Absolute hypocrite.

However...I'm thinking of making a b.s. film that I can get an Oscar for in the future. Even more shocking -- countless people took the film for truth without ever thinking of looking into his claims.

So your suggesting we don't have a problem with gun violence?

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Jay Bell
As a staunch hater of Moore myself, I can wrap it up in four words:

He is a liar.

It's not that he's a liberal. It's that he lies and twists what has really happened to support his finatically liberal opinions and mindset. It's astonishing...a man makes a film trying to prove a point. Yet, to prove the point, he lies and takes most of what was 'documented' out of context to support his line of thought. So essentially, the guy is lying through his teeth about our government lying through their teeth. Absolute hypocrite.

However...I'm thinking of making a b.s. film that I can get an Oscar for in the future. Even more shocking -- countless people took the film for truth without ever thinking of looking into his claims.

I can respect your feeling that he is "a liar." I've definatily heard that more then once.

But, I'm looking to get a bit more specific here. Where exactly do you think he lies?

 

[Jay Bell]

Hi Micha....er...TOD,

So your suggesting we don't have a problem with gun violence?

At what point did any of the words in my post even remotely suggest that that's how I felt? I live in a city where gun violence is an every day reality of life...as do most Americans in metro life.

Moving on...

Bowling for Truth

Truth about Columbine

 

[clapping_tiger]

I think I am going to stay out of this one for the most part because topics like this tend to get a little heated. But the film, or documentary or whatever you want to call it had some good points to it and raised some questions. Such as stated before on this thread, why does America have such a violent culture, you cannot blame it on video games, Japan has some of the most violent video games, you can't blame it on our history, you can't blame it on TV or Movies. What is the reason? I think it is our family culture, for the most part parents no longer want to take responsibility for raising their children right. As far as the whole gun control thing goes I say give it a rest, just like the common saying says, "guns don't kill people, people kill people" and even if there were no guns people would still find another way to kill each other. And f you banned guns or made it a lot harder to get them, the only people that it effects are the law abiding citizens anyway. Criminals don’t obey the law, and do you think they care if it is illegal to have a gun if they plan on killing someone, or robbing a bank, or whatever it is they plan on using it for. But like I said that is just my view on it and I know that everyone all has their views and all are pretty passionate about it, but there is no easy solution to the root problem.

 

[michaeledward]

Master o' Blades ...

This is a topic that will get both the left and right screaming, and not listening. So, be careful with every link posted here. Because the internet allows people to publish information without the benefit of an 'Editor' or 'Fact-Checker', I would suggest you double and triple check everything; including this one.

http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/wackoattacko/index.php

I thought the movie was an excellent portrayal of the gun culture and the media culture in the United States. Where it does seem that the news reports seem to want to keep us very scared. (Why would a bank need a Federal Firearms License, if not to distribute guns?)

I occassionally have the priveledge of travelling to Canada on business for a week or two at a time. The radio broadcasts are just so much more pleasant. They report the news without any of the hyperbole we get in the states, even when the news is bad. I was in Nova Scotia in January, and a fire had destroyed a building and the business housed in the building. The radio had a 20 minute dialog with the owner of the building discussing the ramification of the fire. It really put a human face on the tragedy. That would never happen in the states.

Michael Moore is a hero of mine ... and I do not think he is a liar; regardless of what some others post here.

Mike

 

[Touch Of Death]

As Time Magazine said, Micheal Moore and Anne Coulter are both experts at saying what a "Son of a Bit**" the other guy is. Lying would be to easy to call them on. So Please list these lies that Micheal Moore has spouted or don't call him liar. I didn't see the flick but he only suggests that the KKK and the NRA are related because One ended the same time another began. Its not a lie, it happened.

 

[dearnis.com]

(Why would a bank need a Federal Firearms License, if not to distribute guns?)

Actually a good example of Moore's distortions....
There a few banks in the US that offer CDs where instead of interest over time you get a high end hunting rifle or shotgun up front. The bank makes out because they get the deposit; and someone who otherwise could not afford a $1500 firearm gets one. (why they couldnt make do with less is another issue).
Does Moore bother to show the required background shecks he had to go through to get the gun? Conveniently not.


The broader question is why do we have a culture of violence in the US? good question; but not a gun question. people do great violence to one another daily using anything and everything.

 

[Jay Bell]

TOD,

If you would actually read the links posted on this thread concerning what he's lied about, you wouldn't need to keep asking.

 

[michaeledward]

Does Moore bother to show the required background shecks he had to go through to get the gun? Conveniently not.

I'm not sure what the point of your statement is. Yes, he had to go through a federal background check. Thanks to the Brady Bill ... something that many 2nd amendment types opposed.

The fact remains ... he went to a bank, opened an account, and got a gun.

Why was it again that 'Willie Sutton' said when asked "Why do you rob banks?"

 

[michaeledward]

If you would actually read the links posted on this thread concerning what he's lied about, you wouldn't need to keep asking.

Jay ... I have read some of the articles on the pages you linked to. They certainly present one point of view, but I am not sure they validate the claim of Michael Moore being a liar.

One of the articles was about how Michael Moore made Charlton Heston look like an idiot, by presenting himself as a member of the NRA. Well .... Michael Moore is a member of the NRA. Charlton Heston did attend a meeting in Denver shortly after Columbine. Charlton Heston was the president of the NRA at the time. Why shouldn't Michael Moore be able to question him about the visit?

Obviously, Michael Moore sandbagged Mr. Heston. But as president of the organization, Mr. Heston should have been better able to present that which he apparently so strongly believes in.

The linked article protests that Michael Moore joined the NRA because he wanted to run for president of the ogranization to change its policies. Well, I have always thought (and told my children) that the best way to affect change is from within an organization.

So, where is the lie?

Mike

 

[michaeledward]

If you would actually read the links posted on this thread concerning what he's lied about, you wouldn't need to keep asking.

This from one of the links:

He quotes Bush repeatedly stating that "We know [Saddam] has ties to Al Qaeda" - but provides no source suggesting the administration tied Saddam to Bin Laden personally.

It makes me wonder if the web site in question has heard about the War in Iraq!

Ok ... I'll stop posting after myself now.... :wink2:

 

[Jay Bell]

Here's some blurps:

A. Columbine Shooting/Denver NRA Meeting. Bowling portrays this with the following sequence:

Weeping children outside Columbine;

Cut to Charlton Heston holding a musket and proclaiming "I have only five words for you: 'from my cold, dead, hands'";

Fact: Heston's "cold dead hands" speech, which leads off Moore's depiction of the Denver meeting, was not given at Denver after Columbine. It was given a year later in Charlotte, North Carolina, and was his gesture of gratitude upon his being given a handmade musket, at that annual meeting.

Fact: When Bowling continues on to the speech which Heston did give in Denver, it carefully edits it to change its theme.
Moore's fabrication here cannot be described by any polite term. It is a lie, a fraud, and a few other things. Carrying it out required a LOT of editing to mislead the viewer, as I will show below. I transcribed Heston's speech as Moore has it, and compared it to a news agency's transcript, color coding the passages. CLICK HERE for the comparison, with links to the original transcript.

Moore has actually taken audio of seven sentences, from five different parts of the speech, and a section given in a different speech entirely, and spliced them together. Each edit is cleverly covered by inserting a still or video footage for a few seconds.

First, right after the weeping victims, Moore puts on Heston's "I have only five words for you . . . cold dead hands" statement, making it seem directed at them. As noted above, it's actually a thank-you speech given a year later in North Carolina.

Moore then has an interlude -- a visual of a billboard and his narration. This is vital. He can't go directly to Heston's real Denver speech. If he did that, you might ask why Heston in mid-speech changed from a purple tie and lavender shirt to a white shirt and red tie, and the background draperies went from maroon to blue. Moore has to separate the two segments.

5. The Taliban and American Aid. In discussing military assistance to various countries, Bowling asserts that the U.S. gave $245 million in aid to Taliban-ruled Afghanistan in 2000 and 2001.

Fact: The aid in question washumanitarian assistance given through UN and nongovernmental organizations, to relieve famine in Afghanistan. (Various numbers are given for the amount of the aid, and some say several million went for clearing landmines)

etc etc ad nauseum

"Moore" links --

Spinsanity links on Michael Moore

Forbes finds more falsehoods in Moore's "Bowling"