Block Set insertion

[donald]

I was checking out another board, and stumbled onto a discussion about the abovementioned. It seems Mr.Tatum has inserted a vertical outward block between the downward block, and the rear elbow strike! At first I thought why, but it fits! Has anyone else tried this, and what do you think? Not just about the insert to the set, but about the vertical outward as a tool in kenpo/self defense. Is it viable or nyet?

Salute in Christ,
Donaldo:asian:

 

[Michael Billings]

I liked the centerline anchor he used and the outward is certainly an acceptable insert. He also modified the downward blocks path of action. He is doing a more "practical" version of blocking set ... so it is a "Star Block" exercise ... and very sweet.

-MB

 

[dcence]

I didn't know that is how he does it. If it is, that's fine, but to me it is redundant of the vertical outward block between the inward block and the outward extended block. Though it isn't pronounced and is somewhat 'hidden' in the transition from the inward block to the outward extended, it is there if you know what you are looking for. But nothing wrong with doing something different if you know what you are doing.

After the outward downward block, I do an inside downward block on the way to the back elbow.

Regarding the back elbow, you can think of it as a block to a strike to your kidney area, or a strike if you prefer.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by dcence
I didn't know that is how he does it. If it is, that's fine, but to me it is redundant of the vertical outward block between the inward block and the outward extended block. Though it isn't pronounced and is somewhat 'hidden' in the transition from the inward block to the outward extended, it is there if you know what you are looking for. But nothing wrong with doing something different if you know what you are doing.

After the outward downward block, I do an inside downward block on the way to the back elbow.

Regarding the back elbow, you can think of it as a block to a strike to your kidney area, or a strike if you prefer.

Is there a reason you would reverse torque the arm after the inward and before the outward to obtain the VO block? The point he was attempting to make is you don't have to make any adjustments to get the VO block before the back elbow, in which case, it wouldn't be redundant, it's also seen in Circle of Doom and Rotating Destruction. He also didn't mention the inward downward block on the way to the VO and rear elbow, or the inward/downward hammering block on the way to the downward (Raining Claw). He was just illustrating part of what's there in a short clip to get you to think about your motion and not to create new points of origin. It wasn't meant to suggest that's all there is to Star Block as it would take a lot more than just a couple of minutes to go over it and he's only got so much bandwidth on the site. Hell, we have a fighting application to the formal salutation that you'll probably never see. Larry's making an attempt to reach a broad sprectrum of Kenpo people with these clips, something no one else is doing from what I can see. He's taking the TIME (and free to anyone on the net) to explain concepts, theories, and principles in a short clip. If you don't find it useful, don't use it.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[jeffkyle]

I, for one, am glad to see Mr. Tatum doing this. FREE is good for me!

 

[dcence]

Is there a reason you would reverse torque the arm after the inward and before the outward to obtain the VO block? The point he was attempting to make is you don't have to make any adjustments to get the VO block before the back elbow, in which case, it wouldn't be redundant, it's also seen in Circle of Doom and Rotating Destruction. He also didn't mention the inward downward block on the way to the VO and rear elbow, or the inward/downward hammering block on the way to the downward (Raining Claw). He was just illustrating part of what's there in a short clip to get you to think about your motion and not to create new points of origin. It wasn't meant to suggest that's all there is to Star Block as it would take a lot more than just a couple of minutes to go over it and he's only got so much bandwidth on the site. Hell, we have a fighting application to the formal salutation that you'll probably never see. Larry's making an attempt to reach a broad sprectrum of Kenpo people with these clips, something no one else is doing from what I can see. He's taking the TIME (and free to anyone on the net) to explain concepts, theories, and principles in a short clip. If you don't find it useful, don't use it.

Don't be so sensitive. I wasn't being critical. I have mentioned before what a great martial artist Mr. Tatum is. I certainly respect his ability and knowledge. I said in my post that it was "fine." I didn't say it was wrong or anything. I was giving Mr. Tatum some credit by assuming he knew about the vertical outward block between the inward and extended outward. That is why I said you can make changes if you know what you are doing. I assumed Mr. Tatum knows what he is doing and was making another point with his adjustment.

I just didn't want readers to feel the need to insert a block in their patttern when it is already there. I have seen people, who think this block was mistakenly left out of the pattern, try to insert the vertical outward in other places like after the extended outward and before they go to the downward block. When you point out that it is already there between inward and outward extended, a light usually goes off.

Again, I wasn't being critical, just trying to help clarify that you don't need to feel like Mr. Parker forgot about the outward vertical and insert a vertical outward block somewhere when it is already there.

I don't understand your comment about reverse torque. If you move from inward to outward extended properly the vertical outward happens quite naturally as the fist (palm facing you) passes in front of your face.

(Reverse torque is a misnomer. Torque is torque. Torque in forward motion, torque in reverse motion, torque in returning motion seems like more correct terms. But that is a matter of semantics that sometimes I violate myself. Just as long as one knows what he is doing.)

Again, no criticism was intended, just a clarification.

Thanks
Derek

 

[Shiatsu]

Some people are just to touchy

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by dcence
Don't be so sensitive. I wasn't being critical. I have mentioned before what a great martial artist Mr. Tatum is. I certainly respect his ability and knowledge. I said in my post that it was "fine." I didn't say it was wrong or anything. I was giving Mr. Tatum some credit by assuming he knew about the vertical outward block between the inward and extended outward. That is why I said you can make changes if you know what you are doing. I assumed Mr. Tatum knows what he is doing and was making another point with his adjustment.

I just didn't want readers to feel the need to insert a block in their patttern when it is already there. I have seen people, who think this block was mistakenly left out of the pattern, try to insert the vertical outward in other places like after the extended outward and before they go to the downward block. When you point out that it is already there between inward and outward extended, a light usually goes off.

Again, I wasn't being critical, just trying to help clarify that you don't need to feel like Mr. Parker forgot about the outward vertical and insert a vertical outward block somewhere when it is already there.

I don't understand your comment about reverse torque. If you move from inward to outward extended properly the vertical outward happens quite naturally as the fist (palm facing you) passes in front of your face.

(Reverse torque is a misnomer. Torque is torque. Torque in forward motion, torque in reverse motion, torque in returning motion seems like more correct terms. But that is a matter of semantics that sometimes I violate myself. Just as long as one knows what he is doing.)

Again, no criticism was intended, just a clarification.

Thanks
Derek

Well, you could've fooled me on the being critical part.

The inward block in done at a 45 degree angle, in order to achieve a 90 degree block on the VO you would need to reverse torque from the inward and then torque again to the EO.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Shiatsu]

So let me get this straight. You can pick apart AKKI techs or any other system for that matter. Say the way Mr. Planas or someone else teaches it. But if someone says anything about the way Mr. Tatum does a technique you have a cow.

The only wrong way is the one that doesn't work. If it works then it is right. Remember that, it isn't really that hard to comprehend.:asian:

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Shiatsu
So let me get this straight. You can pick apart AKKI techs or any other system for that matter. Say the way Mr. Planas or someone else teaches it. But if someone says anything about the way Mr. Tatum does a technique you have a cow.

The only wrong way is the one that doesn't work. If it works then it is right. Remember that, it isn't really that hard to comprehend.:asian:

I admit to being critical. Having a cow, not even close, how did you even come to that conclusion.

Clyde

 

[Shiatsu]

It is really quite simple. Read any post that questions, the way that Mr. Tatum does something. Then read how many of your other posts where you have criticized other branches of the art. It isn't really that complicated to come to that conclusion.:asian:

 

[dcence]

The inward block in done at a 45 degree angle, in order to achieve a 90 degree block on the VO you would need to reverse torque from the inward and then torque again to the EO.

Your statement leads me to believe that you don't do the VO between the inward and outward extended. It is simply a matter of returning motion and is already there without the slightest change. Have you not been taught this before?

(Don't pause at the VO, it is just there in the returning motion of the transition between the two blocks.)

Derek

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by dcence
Your statement leads me to believe that you don't do the VO between the inward and outward extended. It is simply a matter of returning motion and is already there without the slightest change. Have you not been taught this before?

(Don't pause at the VO, it is just there in the returning motion of the transition between the two blocks.)

Derek

Nevermind

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Fastmover]

I think Clyde is just a "homeboy" cheering for the home team. He is no different then anyone else out there in that regards.

At least he comes ready for the job, he has the long locks of
hair and a Pink Gi.

No offense Clyde........your not the best looking cheerleader
I have seen.

Of course Im just having fun and trying to lighten things up!

 

[Michael Billings]

I think one should be loyal to ones line and lineage. It is a good thing for Clyde to advocate for Mr. Tatum - on the other hand, don't squash the other guy. The arguement regarding torque. I know there is no such thing, but by common usage, in Kenpoese, there has come a shared meaning. I think of it as residual torque sometimes (when it is), a lot of the time.

Anyhow, if Mr. Tatum shows this in a clip ... cool, not everyone has to agree with doing it that way. That is why I see it as a Star Block Set or variation, rather than Blocking Set. It is not the EPAK Blocking Set that is part of my lineage, do I discount or not learn from either of you ... NO. I wallow in the diversity. (YUK, what an image.)

Clyde, your response, a bit judgmental and heated, just said to me you might not be having as good a day as other days. I have not and am not going back and review your past posts. Just be aware that is how Shiatsu is perceiving you.

Shiatsu, it appears you are trying to stir the pot about something personal going on between you and Clyde? At least that is how it looks to me by your referencing his history of posts, etc.

dcence, your posts look very honestly inquisitive and non-judgmental, that was why I wondered if Clyde had caught flac eslewhere or was having a bad day. Nobody has to agree, and it is ok to get pissed on this board, at least it is ok with me, but not when I see someone trying to instigate and were not part of the conflict to start with. So what up with this?

-Michael

 

[Shiatsu]

I have nothing personal against him. I don't even know him, I am new to this board. However I don't see the point in bashing someone just because it isn't the way you do it. I don't know Dcence either. My point was and stillis, that the only right way is whatever works for you. In self defense techniques, in a real street situation without a person going along with the technique how often will you really get it off completely the way you practiced it? My answer is hardly ever. In my line of work I have used many different techniques, and maybe 20% of the time did they go exactly the way I planned, and they were the basic ones. I'm not trying to stir anyones pot. Just saying what I see because it is obvious.:asian:

 

[satans.barber]

I'm not so sure adding that block in is a good idea. When teaching people to do a back elbow (in, for example, Obscure Wing), it can be quite hard to condition them to do it from point of origin, i.e. having their palm resting on or about the thigh, and then bringing the elbow straight backwards into the sternum.

Many students seem to want to bring their hand forwards first, before striking back, because they think it'll be more powerful. This isn't good economy of motion as far as I know, and also wastes time, and finally makes the strike more visible to teh aggressor.

What I quite like about the star block set is that it teaches the back elbow from the downwards block, which is down by the thigh, and so this is a good approximation to using the back elbow from the thigh for Obscure Wing etc..

If you stick an outwards block in there then that practice is lost kinda, as far as I can see.

That's just from my POV though,

Ian.

 

[ProfessorKenpo]

Originally posted by Michael Billings

Clyde, your response, a bit judgmental and heated, just said to me you might not be having as good a day as other days. I have not and am not going back and review your past posts. Just be aware that is how Shiatsu is perceiving you.


-Michael

No, I'm not having a bad day, if you read my responses they are not heated, and I could care less how Shiatsu (just another anonymous voice in the wind who brings nothing to the table in the technical aspect of what we're speaking of) percieves me. I would encourage you to read my posts and delete them if they appear so heated


Judgemental, yes, why wouldn't I be judgemental on a subject I know much about, aren't you? I get paid to teach, therefore I'm a little past amateur status, and it's part of my job (and a requisite of rank) to pass judgement on Kenpo and it's practicioners.



Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde

 

[Shiatsu]

All of the technical aspects had already been discusswed. When you wanted to make ill comments towards the way other people do things. I don't know either one of you. But the petty bickering between organizations is almost to the point of foolishness.

 

[Fastmover]

Originally posted by Shiatsu
But the petty bickering between organizations is almost to the point of foolishness.

No one is representing an organization when they make a comment. It is simply an individual with an opinion. Individuals
can respectfully agree or disagree.

Personally I learn a lot from different points of view and Im glad
the mods allow this sort of thing.

Just a Thought