Bladesmithing / Forging

[Steve]

Anyone here have experience with bladesmithing, either traditional or otherwise?

As some of you may be aware, I'm a pretty curious guy. I've been thinking about building myself a small, brake drum forge and getting started making some small knives. I'd be very interested in hearing any tips for getting started.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Years ago, I spent a fair bit of time playing in the SCA. Among other things, I spent some time forging blades. I'm no expert, and I threw most of what I pounded out into the trash. But I did manage to produce a few reasonable blades.
The hardest thing? Patience. You're going to make an awful lot of utter **** before you do something worth keeping.
Stock removal is easier than forging, and with modern materials it produces some really nice blades.
My suggestion:
Start with some commercial kits, where the blade is already formed. Assemble them and shape the grip/guard.
Then get some blade blanks, where the blade is rough shaped and all you're doing is grinding.
Then get some chunks of steel and cut your own blanks.
Lots of places will do the heat treating for you, too, while you're learning.
When you've gotten good at stock removal, THEN try forging. You do a lot of stock removal even on a forged blade, so it makes sense to me to learn in this order. You cannot make a forged blade without doing stock removal, but you can do stock removal without forging.

 

[Tgace]

I've been watching blade making on YouTube for a few years....someday I'll probably try it too.

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[drop bear]

OK. Not really forging. But doesn't take much gear either.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That's stock removal at it's most basic. A few hand tools. You can make a pretty decent knife like that. You're still going to want to temper and anneal the blade, I suspect, because if it's soft enough to shape with a file, it's probably too soft to take/keep a decent edge.

 

[Tgace]

A heat and oil quench doesn't look too difficult...

Controlled temperature and time tempering though....

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[Dirty Dog]

The way I was taught to do it was heat and oil/brine quench, followed by a reheat to a lesser degree and a slow cooling inside a pile of sand.
I suspect there are a TON of different ways to temper and anneal, though.

 

[Steve]

I've been watching blade making on YouTube for a few years....someday I'll probably try it too.

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yeah, me too, and I think it's about time to dip my toes into it.

really, it seems like there aren't too many tools needed to get started. Mainly just patience and a willingness to screw things up... and a handy fire extinguisher.

 

[Tgace]

I'd like to get an angle grinder, belt sander and grinding wheel first....probably don't "need" em. But it looks a hell of a lot easier with em.

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[Dirty Dog]

#1 tool for stock removal knife making is a decent, narrow (like 1.5-2") belt grinder. You want to be able to flat grind against the platen and hollow grind against the lower wheel. You can make a pretty decent blade with nothing other than this, an oxyacetylene torch, a bucket of olive oil and a pile of sand.
Shape the blade with the grinder.
Heat it with the torch and quench it.
Heat it again and stuff it in the sand.
OK, you'll also need a big pair of tongs to hold it when it's hot.

 

[Tgace]

How long do belts last?

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[Dirty Dog]

Depends on the steel... the harder the steel you're working with, the faster they wear.
But worn belts are the BEST thing for sharpening. Remove the platen and loosen the belt a tad, and use worn belts to grind an incredible convex edge. Super sharp, super strong. The only negative is you really cannot touch up the edge except on a loose belt.

 

[elder999]

I've been making knives since I was 18 years old. Just as Dirty Dog advised, I started with stock removal-and this book:Step-by-Step Knifemaking You Can Do It David Boye 9780615116594 Amazon.com Books , which I still have and still recommend to those who want to start making knives. Moving onto forging.....well, while you can "do it yourself," you're going to waste a fair amount of time with trial and error-I speak from experience here-and taking a blacksmithing or bladesmithing class or seminar is of immense benefit, along with maybe some metallurgy classes, welding classes, and-depending how far down the rabbit hole you want to go-some foundry and jewelry training might come in handy as well.....eventually, your hobby may even become profitable if you pursue it long enough.....that book, though, has some of the simplest and most succinct methods to use for each step of the knifemaking process (exceot for forging) especially the chapter on heat-treating and tempering. There's a few things "wrong" with it (wheel grinders, cutting blanks with an acetylene torch)-like me, David Boye was mostly self-taught-but they're generally minor, and a matter of opinion, and of no real consequence to the beginner.

 

[Steve]

Thanks for the recommendations! I have found a couple places close by where I can take a weekend seminar on blacksmithing/bladesmithing. One place up in Seattle offers general classes, plus focus classes on things like proper grinding. Another school is less bladesmithing focused, but has blacksmithing classes that go over proper techniques for forging metal, with a focus on tool making, including blacksmith tools. I think it would be really cool to forge my own tools.

The big advantage is both schools offer shop rental, so I can focus on learning technique and projects before dropping money on a working anvil, grinders and a forge.

I also just found out yesterday that one of my friends, who is disabled, has been very interested in the art of blacksmithing for years. He's not able to physically do it, but really lit up when I brought the subject up of making knives with him. He was a lawyer when he could work, and has a sharp mind. So, this is definitely going to happen in some manner. He's a great guy, and if this is something we can hang out and kind of work together on, I think it would be good for us both.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I've been making knives since I was 18 years old. Just as Dirty Dog advised, I started with stock removal-and this book:Step-by-Step Knifemaking You Can Do It David Boye 9780615116594 Amazon.com Books , which I still have and still recommend to those who want to start making knives.

I have the same book - the very first book I bought when I started learning. It is excellent.

 

[Flatfish]

I have made several knives also using stock removal. Mostly by hand. I used a hacksaw and later an angle grinder to cut out the shape and built a filing jig for the bevels. Made a forge for the heat treatment out of kitty litter and a bucket. Worked pretty well and I got some good knives out of it.

Heat treatment depends mostly on the steel you are using. With a simple Hi carbon steel such as 1080 or 1084 you heat until the steel gets non-magnetic and then just a little more and quench in warm oil (canola in my case). Other steel can get more complicated.

Once you start looking into it, there's no bottom to the rabbit hole....

 

[Zumorito]

I've been trying to figure out how to find metal in the wilderness. I understand that certain kinds of sand can be melted down into metals, but it seems you need metal tools such as a hammer, chisel and melting pot/pan too, so my paradoxical dilemma is how to find and melt metals in the Wilderness, completely by hand or by using stone tools. I want to do it the way it was first done in history; back then, they didn't have the technology we do; machines didn't do their work for them, and I'm just completely in love with that idea; the idea of finding and harnessing metals in the wilderness by using nature to do it.

Perhaps with the right sand and a thin piece of slate rock over a fire, one could melt down enough material to start making small metal tools, then gradually work up towards getting the material to make a proper cauldron. Would that work?

There's also magnetite; another idea I had would be to find a large enough magnet and then grind a rock into fine dust and roll the magentite through it to pick up all the little metals, then put those shaving onto a rock slab and heat it up until it starts to melt. If a traditional fire wouldn't do it, I'd have to take it to a volcano until I was able to make a proper furnace near my camp.

 

[drop bear]

I've been trying to figure out how to find metal in the wilderness. I understand that certain kinds of sand can be melted down into metals, but it seems you need metal tools such as a hammer, chisel and melting pot/pan too, so my paradoxical dilemma is how to find and melt metals in the Wilderness, completely by hand or by using stone tools. I want to do it the way it was first done in history; back then, they didn't have the technology we do; machines didn't do their work for them, and I'm just completely in love with that idea; the idea of finding and harnessing metals in the wilderness by using nature to do it.

Perhaps with the right sand and a thin piece of slate rock over a fire, one could melt down enough material to start making small metal tools, then gradually work up towards getting the material to make a proper cauldron. Would that work?

There's also magnetite; another idea I had would be to find a large enough magnet and then grind a rock into fine dust and roll the magentite through it to pick up all the little metals, then put those shaving onto a rock slab and heat it up until it starts to melt. If a traditional fire wouldn't do it, I'd have to take it to a volcano until I was able to make a proper furnace near my camp.

You would need a lot of your primative skills in order before you could start mining your own metal.

And you would probably make a kiln rather than muck around with volcanoes.

 

[pgsmith]

I've been trying to figure out how to find metal in the wilderness. I understand that certain kinds of sand can be melted down into metals, but it seems you need metal tools such as a hammer, chisel and melting pot/pan too, so my paradoxical dilemma is how to find and melt metals in the Wilderness, completely by hand or by using stone tools. I want to do it the way it was first done in history; back then, they didn't have the technology we do; machines didn't do their work for them, and I'm just completely in love with that idea; the idea of finding and harnessing metals in the wilderness by using nature to do it.

Perhaps with the right sand and a thin piece of slate rock over a fire, one could melt down enough material to start making small metal tools, then gradually work up towards getting the material to make a proper cauldron. Would that work?

There's also magnetite; another idea I had would be to find a large enough magnet and then grind a rock into fine dust and roll the magentite through it to pick up all the little metals, then put those shaving onto a rock slab and heat it up until it starts to melt. If a traditional fire wouldn't do it, I'd have to take it to a volcano until I was able to make a proper furnace near my camp.

If you're not going to use a volcano for heating your meteorite, then you need to go do a bunch of research and educate yourself on what's involved rather than asking others to do it for you.

 

[Zumorito]

...I was never asking anyone to do it for me; I'm just curious if there were any tips or tricks or nudges in the right direction available by members who perhaps have a wealth of information on the subject matter. And it's been working; learning about new things to research. Been learning about what would be involved in traveling to a volcano; I assume that's probably what the very first primitive metal forgers thought of doing; a campfire isn't hot enough, but the "Mouths/Gates of Hell"? Totally hot enough haha. There's a possibility of noxious gasses, (not to mention incredibly intense amounts of heat, but being a fifth year fireman, I think I'll be able to stand the heat okay). I'd definitely need some kind of a head-covering though to protect my airways from any dangerous fumes or gasses. Sure, a gas mask and reflective suit would be ideal, but my ancestors probably didn't have that kind of gear. I want to walk the steps they took as much as I possibly can. It's part training exercises (mind and body), part adventure/thrill seeking, and partly my obsessive pursuit for the notion of Absolute Freedom. Metal is vital to pretty much everything that makes humans a powerful creature. Right after metal was discovered, many new advances were made, such as making soap from animal fats and oils and mixing medicines and poisons. The advent of metal gave humanity an overwhelming powerful edge over the forces of nature and all threats that crossed their path. But the very first metal discovered/forged couldn't have possibly been made using metal tools; I can only assume that they used wood and stone tools to harvest their metal at first; probably one of the first things they forged was a hammer. This may even tie in with ancient norse myths involving Thor's Hammer; such a monumental discovery can very well be seen as nothing short of Sacred.