Bizarre Training Methods...a Myth?

[Telfer]

I wonder sometimes if all those weird exotic training methods you see in the movies...like this:

are just something dreamed up by the studios for entertainment.

I say this because I just finished reading Brian Kennedy's excellent book 'Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals: A Historical Survey'...and guess what?

All those bizarre austerities arent in there! Instead there was a lot of time doing push-ups, sit-ups, isometrics, breathing exercises, forms and sparring.

There are a few exceptions. For example there was a drill called the 'Sunshine Hand' where the student tried to snuff out a candle with a very quick straight jab.

And it was also described how one school used a hollow bronze dummy target with vital points marked in white dots. The teacher would judge the success of a strike based on the ring tone of the bronze!

But aside from that...it was pretty ordinary stuff.

So, what do you think...a myth???

 

[Wey]

I'm sure not all of it is "real" per say, but one can see the applications of some of the drills. A lot of it is for the movies, though. I wouldn't discredit all of what you see, Telfer. =]

 

[jks9199]

Depends. If you're talking about things like carrying buckets with razors on your arms or the more extreme stuff like sparring 6 feet up in the air on poles? Nah; that's exaggeration for the movies. But Plum Blossom Poles are real, as are some of the other things...

As to striking trees? Xue is our resident expert there! But I used to do it, too. Fists, forearms, shins, feet, knees, and elbows all. (Haven't for awhile. Getting lazy as I get older!)

 

[Wey]

Depends. If you're talking about things like carrying buckets with razors on your arms or the more extreme stuff like sparring 6 feet up in the air on poles? Nah; that's exaggeration for the movies. But Plum Blossom Poles are real, as are some of the other things...

As to striking trees? Xue is our resident expert there! But I used to do it, too. Fists, forearms, shins, feet, knees, and elbows all. (Haven't for awhile. Getting lazy as I get older!)

Did you find hitting trees to be beneficial?

 

[dbell]

Did you find hitting trees to be beneficial?

I was wondering the same thing....

 

[jks9199]

Did you find hitting trees to be beneficial?

It conditioned my weapons, and I learned a lot about being solid when I strike. A tree has NO give, unlike a heavy bag, so if you aren't truly and solidly rooted, you'll land on your butt from a kick.

You don't just hit any tree, though. It's easier to show than explain, but you want one with bark that's not going to destroy your hands, and you may want the right flex in the trunk depending on what you're doing.

 

[still learning]

Hello, A real life JUDO master'' Masahiko Kimura" did over 1000 push-ups a day and train for up to 9 hours ( the "Kimura" name after him)...was consider unbeatable in his prime!

His most famous bout was with Helio Graces....

Aloha, bizarra training...can work....The video was fun to watch....

 

[Telfer]

Hello, A real life JUDO master'' Masahiko Kimura" did over 1000 push-ups a day and train for up to 9 hours ...was consider unbeatable in his prime!

Speaking of training with trees...Kimura apparently would sometimes practice his Osotogari vs. a tree!???

 

[Wey]

It conditioned my weapons, and I learned a lot about being solid when I strike. A tree has NO give, unlike a heavy bag, so if you aren't truly and solidly rooted, you'll land on your butt from a kick.

You don't just hit any tree, though. It's easier to show than explain, but you want one with bark that's not going to destroy your hands, and you may want the right flex in the trunk depending on what you're doing.

Thank you for the insight, kind sir.

 

[punisher73]

Some are real, some have somewhat of a basis in reality, but then have been "hollywoodized" to make it cooler.

There are some things that didn't exist before a script writers pen. For example, to pass the final initiation as a Shaolin monk, you had to lift a big huge vat of heated metal with your forearms and when you were done you would have the tiger and dragon tattooed on your forearms. I have actually seen this mentioned in a book on the martial arts as if it was a fact.

Once, the general public sees something in the movies, etc. they tend to think it is real when it comes to martial arts.

 

[kingkong89]

There are many what seem like bizzar training methods that is why it is up to us to deferentiate what works and what doesnt

 

[Uchinanchu]

I can't comment on the video mentioned above (can't access it at the moment), but I can tell you that iron broom training (Chinese conditioning drills) and kotekitai (Japanese/Okinawan conditioning drills) are very effective. In our Goju system, it is a necessary part of our training, in order to strengthen/condition our limbs and torso against impact.
Also, much of the traditional Okinawan Hojo undo (supplimentary training), such as walking sanchin while carrying ceramic jars (sometimes filled with water, sand, or pebbles) is also still practiced. If memory serves me correctly, many of the hojo undo drills/tools can be traced back to China.

 

[Chris Parker]

I actually still do a lot of the kind of things mentioned (primarily by JKS), such as training with trees. I use them as striking targets, I use the leaves as targets for weapon work (thrusting a nine-foot spear and trying to hit the leaf you're aiming at is wonderfully disparaging, at least to begin with...), and train a lot of my throwing techniques against trees trunks. I use a resistance band wrapped around the tree, secured at a sturdy branch, and practice entering and applying the mechanics of the particular throw (I also use the resistance band secured on a tree to train strikes, and for a few other uses). This is from the Shinden Fudo Ryu, whose teachings are said to say that before making a dojo and training equipment, learn to train using nature...

As to striking the tree itself, it is exactly as JKS described, choose your tree with care! We have a tree here known as a "paper-bark", with very soft outer bark. That was a good beginning. As I continued, I've chosen much harder ones to hit, but always made sure I've chosen smooth trees to use. Like anything, choose your training equipment carefully, and use common sense.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I wonder sometimes if all those weird exotic training methods you see in the movies...like this:

are just something dreamed up by the studios for entertainment.

I say this because I just finished reading Brian Kennedy's excellent book 'Chinese Martial Arts Training Manuals: A Historical Survey'...and guess what?

All those bizarre austerities arent in there! Instead there was a lot of time doing push-ups, sit-ups, isometrics, breathing exercises, forms and sparring.

There are a few exceptions. For example there was a drill called the 'Sunshine Hand' where the student tried to snuff out a candle with a very quick straight jab.

And it was also described how one school used a hollow bronze dummy target with vital points marked in white dots. The teacher would judge the success of a strike based on the ring tone of the bronze!

But aside from that...it was pretty ordinary stuff.

So, what do you think...a myth???

First movies are movies and to be viewed as such and I believe the clip provided is a movie based on fiction.

Second you need to define what you mean when you are saying bizarre… without specific examples it may or may not be a myth.

Also nothing against Brian Kennedy and he is a good source but there are others to look at as well.

Look at Baguazhang- Theory and Applications, by Dr. Yang, Jwing-Ming, Liang, Shou-Yu and you will read about some of the older, less used today, Bagua training methods.

The issue with much of CMA today is that there is a lot of myth about training and old masters (mostly based on what people see in movies) and a lot of training methods that use to be used that are no longer because they are either to hard, to painful, to boring, take to long or to dangerous.

To hitting trees; I am not an expert, I just was shown how to train non-sport sanda using trees and from my Sifu’s POV he was not looking for a smooth bark tree he was looing for a specific diameter tree and it had pretty rough bark actually (he was also rather fond of mapel trees and cement walls). However we did not train fist strikes on it, mostly palm and there is also forearm, elbow, shin and foot but I have to say I cold never bring myself to elbow a tree. This is not training I recommend that anyone do without a sifu you “WILL” hurt yourself. What surprised me about it was that you were not looking at the force of the strike or the proper alignment you were looking for a specific sound and once you got that sound form the strike everything else followed.

My experience with tree hitting (My ongoing feud with trees aside… never trust a tree ) was good. I will say I was having some hand issues prior to training strikes on trees based on some old injuries but since then my hands have actually been much better. But since the cutting down of my favorite hitting tree I have been unable to train this way and I do miss it. I have designed and am building something that I can put in my basement that will get me back into it but I have not finished it yet.

I enjoyed that type of training (but then one of our more respected and missed members labeled me a "genuine, certifiable MA House O' Pain maniac" [thanks exile]) so consider the source when I say I enjoyed this type of training. But regardless it is absolutely not something I would recommend without a well trained sifu.

As to the rest, some is myth, some is forgotten and some is still used by many styles and some is still used by the more traditional CMA sifus

 

[Telfer]

Second you need to define what you mean when you are saying bizarre…

I think a LOT of people get into MA because of something they saw in a film, and screenwriters come up with bizarre training methods because they lend a aura of mystery to something that might otherwise be too ordinary for great drama.

Take 'The Karate Kid' for example. Did it really have anything to do with Karate???

Can you imagine how dull it would have been if Mr. Miyagi had Daniel-san doing push-ups and sit-ups, stretching, jogging...instead of wax on/wax off, or balancing on a pylon with the surf?

I liked the film btw, that scene in the dark where Daniel comes across Miyagi's war medal, and whispers one word...valour!

Cinema gold!

 

[Telfer]

Also nothing against Brian Kennedy and he is a good source but there are others to look at as well.

Interesting to note that at the end of Kennedy's book he has a chapter on the Chinese army's research into un-armed combat during the republican era.

"They researched all the popular forms of martial arts and concluded that western boxing hand techniques, when it came to developing practical striking and defensive abilities in a reasonable amount of time, were superior to all other others, including their own."

 

[Xue Sheng]

I think a LOT of people get into MA because of something they saw in a film, and screenwriters come up with bizarre training methods because they lend a aura of mystery to something that might otherwise be too ordinary for great drama.

Take 'The Karate Kid' for example. Did it really have anything to do with Karate???

Can you imagine how dull it would have been if Mr. Miyagi had Daniel-san doing push-ups and sit-ups, stretching, jogging...instead of wax on/wax off, or balancing on a pylon with the surf?

I liked the film btw, that scene in the dark where Daniel comes across Miyagi's war medal, and whispers one word...valour!

Cinema gold!

Real training can be very boring in CMA

Xingyiquan is based on Santi Shi

Stand this way, don't move for 20 minutes a day and you are a beginner. And after standing this way for 20 minutes.... switch legs and stand that way for 20 minutes. But without Santi you miss the base of Xingyiquan, IMO, and a whole lot of training on how to generate power for strikes.

Non-sports Sanshou; 100 kicks per leg per day 100 strikes per day, 100 elbow strikes per...... you get the idea and my sifu actually wanted 500 he let me off at 300 and I never got to the 100 kicks per side per day. And there are pull-ups, push ups and sit-ups too. Taijiquan do the long form 3 times a day (there's an hour) and now do your other forms and tuishou and associated qigong. Xingyiquan by the way also has forms, Tuishou and associated qigong.

 

[Senjojutsu]

First movies are movies and to be viewed as such and I believe the clip provided is a movie based on fiction.

Second you need to define what you mean when you are saying bizarre… without specific examples it may or may not be a myth....

While the OP video referenced CMA training let me state JMA/Okinawan - depending on the style and instructor's preferences and the training he had received - also had "quirks" in training & conditioning drills etc... But was it part of an established core curriculum, probably mostly not - more of an adjunct tradition?

Most of these methods IMHO have now become "myths" in part due to consumers (students' feedback and tolerance to endure any of this) and of course the bane of us all - lawyers & lawsuits.

Take something as benign as being corrected in a traditional karate class with the whack of a shinai - i.e., onto your quadriceps to emphasize you need to correct the depth of your front leaning stance. This probably doesn't happen much these days in karate classes in America, eh?

Also the advances in knowledge of exercise physiology science during the past four decades would put many of "bizarre" drills to bed if the had an outside peer review. We (martial arts practionors) don't live in isolated Okinawan fishing villages anymore do we?

As far as hitting trees, that's for wussies.
I remember watching a 1960s video of traditional Japanese karate - they had the instructor doing a demonstration by hitting an old stationary locomotive engine with his blocks, strikes and kicks - flesh and bone onto solid iron.

Just watching & listening to the "thunking sound" of these impacts - caused my limbs to get bruised. Thunk... Thunk... Thunk!

 

[Xue Sheng]

Most of these methods IMHO have now become "myths" in part due to consumers (students' feedback and tolerance to endure any of this) and of course the bane of us all - lawyers & lawsuits.

Well to quote a sifu from China I once trained with

Sifu: "I can't train Americans like I trained people in China"

Xue: "why"

Sifu: "I can't hit them when the mess up"

 

[jks9199]

While the OP video referenced CMA training let me state JMA/Okinawan - depending on the style and instructor's preferences and the training he had received - also had "quirks" in training & conditioning drills etc... But was it part of an established core curriculum, probably mostly not - more of an adjunct tradition?

Most of these methods IMHO have now become "myths" in part due to consumers (students' feedback and tolerance to endure any of this) and of course the bane of us all - lawyers & lawsuits.

Take something as benign as being corrected in a traditional karate class with the whack of a shinai - i.e., onto your quadriceps to emphasize you need to correct the depth of your front leaning stance. This probably doesn't happen much these days in karate classes in America, eh?

Also the advances in knowledge of exercise physiology science during the past four decades would put many of "bizarre" drills to bed if the had an outside peer review. We (martial arts practionors) don't live in isolated Okinawan fishing villages anymore do we?

As far as hitting trees, that's for wussies.
I remember watching a 1960s video of traditional Japanese karate - they had the instructor doing a demonstration by hitting an old stationary locomotive engine with his blocks, strikes and kicks - flesh and bone onto solid iron.

Just watching & listening to the "thunking sound" of these impacts - caused my limbs to get bruised. Thunk... Thunk... Thunk!

Well... there was a time I practiced leaps over bulldozer blades. (Obviously stationary... and unoccupied!)