Best side kick I have seen on Youtube

wab25

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I said that very bent is bad.
Why?

The video you posted to show excessive knee bend, would be considered correct knee bend in Shotokan. So, I am asking for you to elaborate on why that "excessive" bent knee is bad.
 
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Why?

The video you posted to show excessive knee bend, would be considered correct knee bend in Shotokan. So, I am asking for you to elaborate on why that "excessive" bent knee is bad.

Because it undermines your mobility to strike consecutively instead of just once and then reset.
 

wab25

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First off, I do appreciate your answers. They are very helpful in understanding where TKD people are coming from.
And while we work hard on the perfection of certain techniques, we need standards to go by. And especially when it comes to Poomsae competition you need to standardize techniques. Otherwise it would be even harder to judge than it already is.
The idea of "having standards" is not only satisfied by have a straight leg. Shotokan (at least the organizations I have had contact with) has standardized the bent knee, in the supporting leg. They also have standards. I am more interested in why TKD choose straight over bent.

It is true that TKD has roots in Shotokan Karate. There are lots of things that TKD brought over from Shotokan. However, TKD has additional roots, other than Shotokan, other than Karate and other than Japanese. In my view, having roots in Shotokan does not mean TKD is any less than Shotokan. I look at it the other way around. Since it has roots in Shotokan, it could be considered an evolution of Shotokan. While I believe knowing the roots helps to understand the new system... knowing how and why things evolved in the new system is just as important. I am certain that there are bits in TKD that could certainly help my Shotokan.
 

wab25

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Because it undermines your mobility to strike consecutively instead of just once and then reset.
You will have to elaborate on this for me. For all other athletic things I have done, you are taught to keep your knees bent, specifically to help with balance and mobility. I have had no issues throwing multiple kicks and striking combos with the knee bent stance, as shown in the "excessive knee bend" video. I can't yet comment on kicking with a straight leg... but all other athletic things I have tried, straight legs reduce mobility and make chaining together moves even more difficult. What am I missing regarding kicking?
 
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You will have to elaborate on this for me. For all other athletic things I have done, you are taught to keep your knees bent, specifically to help with balance and mobility. I have had no issues throwing multiple kicks and striking combos with the knee bent stance, as shown in the "excessive knee bend" video. I can't yet comment on kicking with a straight leg... but all other athletic things I have tried, straight legs reduce mobility and make chaining together moves even more difficult. What am I missing regarding kicking?

Again, bent is good, very bent not so great. You are limiting your mobility and options of attack when a slight bent is good enough. Even if you don't want to follow up with another kick, a very bent leg undermines mobility.

As to forms: it signals bad flexibility and is less aestethically pleasing.
 
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You might have the ability to strike consecutively but not as smoothly compared to a slight bent. It won't flow as naturally and efficiently.
 

wab25

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You might have the ability to strike consecutively but not as smoothly compared to a slight bent. It won't flow as naturally and efficiently.
Seems to flow quite well...

Even seems to be quite mobile and able to go other places besides just a kick...

a very bent leg undermines mobility.
You keep saying this... but you don't explain any further. If you are talking about a supporting knee that is at an angle of 90 degrees or less... then yes. Having the knee bent that much prevents natural movement. But, the example shown for excessive knee bend, is no where near that extreme. (its only a couple of degrees more than your slightly bent knee) I am asking for the why... not for you to repeat again the same thing. Explain the thing you are repeating please.
 
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Seems to flow quite well...

Even seems to be quite mobile and able to go other places besides just a kick...


You keep saying this... but you don't explain any further. If you are talking about a supporting knee that is at an angle of 90 degrees or less... then yes. Having the knee bent that much prevents natural movement. But, the example shown for excessive knee bend, is no where near that extreme. (its only a couple of degrees more than your slightly bent knee) I am asking for the why... not for you to repeat again the same thing. Explain the thing you are repeating please.

In clip 2,He is demonstrating two techniques in succession on a static target a la point fighting stop format. And he is stopping just like I said.
 

wab25

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In clip 2,He is demonstrating two techniques in succession on a static target a la point fighting stop format.
That takes away from the flow and mobility of his movement how?

Yes, he is stopping after the takedown, which he flowed into after the punch, which he flowed into after the kick...

You may not like the look of it... but his bent knee does not seem to hurt his flow or mobility.

Glad TKD never practices 2-3 techniques in succession on a static target a la point fighting stop format...
 
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That takes away from the flow and mobility of his movement how?


...

The more you ground yourself, the more your gravity is lowered, and the longer it is to unground and lash out a technique. You also lose time to extend a body that is tightened by the bending.
 
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I would like to think that you get off a couch faster half way sitting, rather than almost sitting or actually sitting.

This isn't rocket science
 

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[...]. I am more interested in why TKD choose straight over bent.

[..] I look at it the other way around. Since it has roots in Shotokan, it could be considered an evolution of Shotokan. While I believe knowing the roots helps to understand the new system... knowing how and why things evolved in the new system is just as important. I am certain that there are bits in TKD that could certainly help my Shotokan.

You might have the ability to strike consecutively but not as smoothly compared to a slight bent. It won't flow as naturally and efficiently.

My reply kinda mixes answers to both of the above posts...

In Kukkiwon/World Taekwondo Poomsae there aren't many consecutive kicks, but one is the
거듭 옆 차기 Keodeup Yeop Chagi in Koyreo.


In this video (from the current World Taekwondo Online World Championships) the first of those two kicks is done with a bent knee of the supporting leg and the supporting leg is fully straightened at the end of the 2nd kick. With the majority of Taekwondo stances, the supporting leg is coming from a bent position. So I would say straightening the supporting leg is similar to straightening the kicking leg or the arm when doing a punch. At the final stage of executing a technique, we fully extend our leg or arm (at least make it look like that - without ruining the knee and elbow joints ;)). At the 'Focus point' (Karateka would call it 'Kime'), there's full tension and power. And I think this is why the supporting leg in sidekicks (but also front kicks) is supposed to be straight in Kukkiwon Taekwondo. A bent joint is associated with relaxation. In Taekwondo we always have a wide range of power and speed in a technique. We start/chamber relaxed and slow and end the technique with speed and power.
 

wab25

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I would like to think that you get off a couch faster half way sitting, rather than almost sitting or actually sitting.

This isn't rocket science
Yet the guy you showed with "excessive knee bend" was no where bending his knee enough to be half sitting or almost sitting. You are treating 5 to 10 degrees more bend, than straight as if the guy were doing that Russian Dance where his is sitting on his heels....

In reality, the Shotokan guys in these videos all show bent supporting legs... similar to athletic stances used in all sports. However, one of my favorite kickers, Bill Wallace, kicks with a straight or nearly straight support leg. The truth is that both approaches will work... people have different reasons for their preferred approach.
 

wab25

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In this video (from the current World Taekwondo Online World Championships) the first of those two kicks is done with a bent knee of the supporting leg and the supporting leg is fully straightened at the end of the 2nd kick. With the majority of Taekwondo stances, the supporting leg is coming from a bent position. So I would say straightening the supporting leg is similar to straightening the kicking leg or the arm when doing a punch. At the final stage of executing a technique, we fully extend our leg or arm (at least make it look like that - without ruining the knee and elbow joints ;)). At the 'Focus point' (Karateka would call it 'Kime'), there's full tension and power. And I think this is why the supporting leg in sidekicks (but also front kicks) is supposed to be straight in Kukkiwon Taekwondo. A bent joint is associated with relaxation. In Taekwondo we always have a wide range of power and speed in a technique. We start/chamber relaxed and slow and end the technique with speed and power.
Thank you for the excellent explaination.
 

JowGaWolf

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Here you go, Steve...


I think I'm too functional for this discussion.
A great side kick is one that doesn't get grabbed and breaks a few ribs before it returns
A good side kick is one that doesn't get grabbed but lands solid
A bad side kick is one that puts you in more trouble than you were in before the side kick.
So based on my standards. That's a great side kick = One that doesn't get grabbed and breaks a few ribs before it returns. Can one really ask more from a side kick? lol
 

JowGaWolf

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Seems to flow quite well...

Even seems to be quite mobile and able to go other places besides just a kick...


You keep saying this... but you don't explain any further. If you are talking about a supporting knee that is at an angle of 90 degrees or less... then yes. Having the knee bent that much prevents natural movement. But, the example shown for excessive knee bend, is no where near that extreme. (its only a couple of degrees more than your slightly bent knee) I am asking for the why... not for you to repeat again the same thing. Explain the thing you are repeating please.
those were some really nice kicks
 

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So based on my standards. That's a great side kick = One that doesn't get grabbed and breaks a few ribs before it returns. Can one really ask more from a side kick? lol

And he wasn't throwing that kick that hard, just fast. I know because I'm a fricking idiot. I once asked him if I could hold some kicking shields and have him side kick them as hard as he could. He said, "No, you don't want to do that." I said, "yes, I really do." That exchange was even repeated. But, no, I didn't listen.

I held three shields, and we had top of the line shields, had to with the people who came there. I had an inner tube shield sandwiched between two really thick shields.

When he kicked them, it was in a way that I had not seen him move before. And I actually had time to think, "This is really going to suck" as I was being propelled backwards. I, at least, was right about that, it really did suck. Both my feet were off the floor as I was going backwards. There was a wall behind me, way behind me. I broke two ribs hitting that damn wall.

The inner tube shield was a mistake, but if it wasn't there, I think the kick might have given me more than a couple broken ribs. I mean, it was fricken scary.

Note to self, "Doubt your instructor at your own peril."
 

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My reply kinda mixes answers to both of the above posts...

In Kukkiwon/World Taekwondo Poomsae there aren't many consecutive kicks, but one is the
거듭 옆 차기 Keodeup Yeop Chagi in Koyreo.


In this video (from the current World Taekwondo Online World Championships) the first of those two kicks is done with a bent knee of the supporting leg and the supporting leg is fully straightened at the end of the 2nd kick. With the majority of Taekwondo stances, the supporting leg is coming from a bent position. So I would say straightening the supporting leg is similar to straightening the kicking leg or the arm when doing a punch. At the final stage of executing a technique, we fully extend our leg or arm (at least make it look like that - without ruining the knee and elbow joints ;)). At the 'Focus point' (Karateka would call it 'Kime'), there's full tension and power. And I think this is why the supporting leg in sidekicks (but also front kicks) is supposed to be straight in Kukkiwon Taekwondo. A bent joint is associated with relaxation. In Taekwondo we always have a wide range of power and speed in a technique. We start/chamber relaxed and slow and end the technique with speed and power.

I don't know if I agree with the front kick statement.
The hips move forward for more power and distance, if the leg is straight it would hurt your balance.
 
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Yet the guy you showed with "excessive knee bend" was no where bending his knee enough to be half sitting or almost sitting. You are treating 5 to 10 degrees more bend, than straight as if the guy were doing that Russian Dance where his is sitting on his heels....

In reality, the Shotokan guys in these videos all show bent supporting legs... similar to athletic stances used in all sports. However, one of my favorite kickers, Bill Wallace, kicks with a straight or nearly straight support leg. The truth is that both approaches will work... people have different reasons for their preferred approach.

I gave an analogy. His fighting stance is for that matter half way sitting on a couch deep
 
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