Best combo for street self defence

[drop bear]

where I come from "Different Systems" get "Different Names"

That might be the problem then. If you don't have consistency within your style and you can't really differentiate between one system and a other within that.

Then you are essentially rolling the dice

 

[JowGaWolf]

The important thing to understand when choosing the best martial arts for self defence is there is no requirement for it to work.

I believe you would have a different perspective if you were the one who had to advertise and market a school to attract people who are seriously looking for self-defense. You make the assumption that they don't know what to look for. In my experience I have often found that my school was not the first school that they checked out, nor was it the first school they trained in. They have requirements for what they expect of training and if your school doesn't meet those requirements then they will choose not to be a part of your school.

That's just the honest truth. A lot of times the discussion in the threads make it seem like the people seeking martial arts don't know what they want. Tell @Alan0354 that. Based on the people who asked about Jow Ga and self-defense in the past, it wasn't their first time seeking out a martial arts school. Same with the self defense class. Many had taken other self defense classes so they had enough exposure to compare my school with past schools and classes they attended. They weren't first timers who never took advantage of trial classes or invitations to come and watch classes.

 

[drop bear]

I don't know what you are trying to say. Literally I don't understand your shorthand here.

Ok. The guy who couldn't perform well in one system changed systems and performed better.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That might be the problem then. If you don't have consistency within your style and you can't really differentiate between one system and a other within that.

Then you are essentially rolling the dice

Consistency is why different systems get different names. You can't get consistency by have something with the same name doing 2 different things. This is why you don't say BJJ is the same as Japanese Jiu-jitsu they are not the same thing.

 

[drop bear]

I believe you would have a different perspective if you were the one who had to advertise and market a school to attract people who are seriously looking for self-defense. You make the assumption that they don't know what to look for. In my experience I have often found that my school was not the first school that they checked out, nor was it the first school they trained in. They have requirements for what they expect of training and if your school doesn't meet those requirements then they will choose not to be a part of your school.

That's just the honest truth. A lot of times the discussion in the threads make it seem like the people seeking martial arts don't know what they want. Tell @Alan0354 that. Based on the people who asked about Jow Ga and self-defense in the past, it wasn't their first time seeking out a martial arts school. Same with the self defense class. Many had taken other self defense classes so they had enough exposure to compare my school with past schools and classes they attended. They weren't first timers who never took advantage of trial classes or invitations to come and watch classes.

People will accept an easy way out.

So to sell self defence you sell the idea about learning an art that is strangely twice as dangerous but takes half the work.

Detroit dust is still going gang busters for example. Yet people know what it takes to learn self defence?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Ok. The guy who couldn't perform well in one system changed systems and performed better.

What about him? We are good at some things and better at others. What's your point?

 

[drop bear]

Consistency is why different systems get different names. You can't get consistency by have something with the same name doing 2 different things. This is why you don't say BJJ is the same as Japanese Jiu-jitsu they are not the same thing.

You were saying g jow gar you could either walk in to a school where people fight.

Or walk in to a school where they don't.

 

[drop bear]

What about him? We are good at some things and better at others. What's your point?

That when he changed systems he got better at fighting. He is doing a better system.

 

[gerardfoy50]

yup

Ok fair enough my friend, how

I'm all in with you on boxing having great hands. Period.

But let's not lose sight of why, the ONLY why, Connor McGregor took that boxing match.
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eith great power comes great responsibility, to get rich

 

[gerardfoy50]

That's a bad comparison to prove boxing is the best hands only style. Not only did he take on the 'boxing champ' but he did so in boxing rules. Meaning not just "only hands", but having to fight with all the other limitations of boxing. This means they've got to use specific gloves, that are different than the ones McGregor is used to, and the round system was boxing rounds rather than UFC rounds, which can mess with someone's stamina (which is already McGregor's biggest issue in the UFC).

To add to that, the two champs aren't on the same level. Mayweather has won 50 matches with no losses, while McGregor won 22 matches and 7. So you're taking someone who never loses against someone who does lose, and expect it to prove something that the guy who never loses won again? Add to that the guy who is 22 and 7 now was 21 and 3 at the time, lost this match and 3 of his next 4, so he just reached the dip in his athletic career when this match happened.

To add to that, one win/loss doesn't prove anything. That's the issue with style vs. style. Take pretty much any sport, and you'll see multiple instances per week of the better team losing to the worse team. That's why most sports don't have 1 game eliminations. Look at baseball world series or NBA finals from last year; both finals went 4 and 2. That means that twice the "worse team" won. If you wanted to prove anything specific here, you'd need to take multiple boxing champs, multiple ufc champs, and have them face off against each other multiple different times. Only then could you have anything statistically significant enough to make any sort of claim from.

To add to that, even if there were neutral rounds/gloves/other rules (keeping just hands), Mayweather and McGregor were equal in their respective sport, and managed to fight enough times, with enough other champs added in to determine which is better, it still wouldn't prove that boxing is the best hands only style. All it would prove is that boxing is better than MMA at hands-only fighting. Which is expected, since MMA doesn't try to be the best at any one thing-it shouldn't be the best hands style, foot style, throwing style or ground grappling style. So it's not a good benchmark for that, and does nothing to suggest that boxing is better than wing chun, karate, muay Thai, kalaripayattu, bando, or any number of other arts, when it comes to hands.

Good points for sure, boxing is a hands only style and definitely will struggle against any style that uses more than hands, however if we just focus on hands, let’s say the world it’s champ or the world karate champ went hands only using there own style of movement and rounds time limit against any boxing champ from the last 10 years, who would you bet your money on

 

[gerardfoy50]

If you believe that, then you are naive.

Perhaps I am,or perhaps I am right

 

[drop bear]

Boxing kind of does a magic trick though. So instead of really reacting to punching they will move in a way that prevents it based on probability.(sort of)

It effectively means they are avoiding punches faster. And are able to attack with both hands rather than sacrificing a hand to defend.

Considering punches are very hard to see and even harder to catch. It is an incredibly effective striking method.

And so when people say boxing is just better. It is these guys at the top of the game as the reason why.

 

[gerardfoy50]

Thing is, I've never met a pygmy but I know they are out there.

Your school doesn't place importance on the showman ship of doing a form or kata then you won't meet people like that. They don't drink at your water hole. I know they are out there because I had one in the same school that I was in. We gave her the nickname Hollywood. Everything had to be perfect vs practical. Her focus bled into her sparring and often times the instructors had to remind her not to pose during sparring after striking.

I've met people from other systems as well who were similar. Then there's the extreme martial arts crowd. I'm pretty sure this is not proper sword technique. I'm not saying that it's bad. This guy may be in an action movie in the future.

Then you have people like this. You know what's important to them? Looking good, Looking cool, and not screwing up the performance. You know who would really suck at this type of stuff? People like you, and definitely people like me. You know what's not exciting to watch? Me doing forms lol

I'm pretty sure there's version of me in the multiverse who is really good at this stuff and if I ever fall into worm hole and land on his planet. I will be sure to correct that error. lol

I'm just saying that people do martial arts for various reason. We may not approve of the reasons, but it is what it is. One of the coolest things to me was the Lion Dance. My school needed some performers for Lion Dance as it helped fund the school. So I gave it a try and ended up really liking it.

You said people do martial arts for a variety of reasons, absolutely and it’s all good, my 11 year daughter started tkd 6 months ago, great for flexibility cause she was stiff as a board, great for fitness cause she’s lost weight, great as a social club making friends cause she was shy, great for building confidence cause standing up doing patterns in front of the class takes guts. Also sparring even though it’s soft touch gives an idea of how to fight.All these things are important in a street fight flexibility, fitness,confidence etc. But would she beat a judo, bjj, mauy Thai, we can love our style but let’s be honest about why we do it, what it’s benefits are and what it’s limits are

 

[JowGaWolf]

People will accept an easy way out.

That's just how some humans are. If you don't have the power to change this about human nature then it's pointless to make it an issue. The reality is that some people will take easy way out. The only thing you can do create a school that fits your ideal student. If you want a school that will be full of people who don't quit, then advertise to those type of people and that's all you'll have for students.

If you want to make a school for people who want the easy way out, then make a school for them and give out belts even though they are just participation rewards for showing up for a year of classes. Each year = new belt. If that's who you target market is then there's no point of being angry or disgusted about it. Those type of student were never going to the "no quit" school any way. At the end of the day regardless of what you teach. Your school will need to make enough money to stay open.

So to sell self defence you sell the idea about learning an art that is strangely twice as dangerous but takes half the work.

Yep. and I tell you why. Because there are people out there who are looking exactly for something like that. They aren't looking for the "no quit school" or the "work out hard school." An example during my first year training in the Jow Ga school that used to be in Georgia. An ex student's parent came to visit the school to show off his daughters black belt and how soon she got it. He told his daughter to show us her black belt form. It was horrible, the girl didn't have confidence and she knew that her form was horrible. Kids are young not stupid, they know when someone does something better than they can. She saw how her old classmates were training and you know it was an instant comparison. But that's not the point. The point is her father took her out of the Jow Ga school and enrolled her into another school who claimed that their training was more healthy for children. The father told us that his daughter didn't have to worry about injury to her joints from the impact of punching a pad. The girl was about 10 years old.

So, yest there are people out there who want that easy stuff. That's just the way things are. I didn't want students or parents like that in the school so I never marketed to potential student who fit that characteristic. The 2 instructors and I (before I became one) agreed that we would never seek students like that. The only option that you'll have as a school is either advertise to people like that or don't.

People who are looking for good workouts and practical martial arts don't want easy. When the original school first closed down. One of the Jow Ga students took TKD. She was disappointed because the training there didn't match the intensity of the training that we had at the school. Another example, a TKD student joined our school for about 3 months and never came back. In one of the classes he told his mom that kung fu was too hard. What we were doing wasn't hard. He just didn't want to do all of the conditioning exercises that we were doing. He wanted something easy so he left on his own. His mom was the one who wanted something challenging for her son.

Detroit dust is still going gang busters for example. Yet people know what it takes to learn self defence?

There is a difference between knowing what it takes to learn something and being willing to do it. I know what it takes to be a doctor, but I'd easily settle for something easier. It can be frustrating sometimes to deal with people who always want the easy way out because their logic makes no sense to use. But sooner we can accept that there people like that, then the less time we'll spend on pointing them out and more time focusing on things functional martial arts that can be used in fighting. Instead of pointing out people who would never train where you train or see martial arts as the same as you do.

As for Detroit DUST. People who like him don't like the same things you like. They aren't the same people who would train in the same type of gym you train in. They definitely aren't the same people who would take Jow Ga kung fu. Instead of trying to change their minds I rather spend my time finding people who are interested in Jow Ga or training like I do. Which is how I ended up having an MMA guy as a sparring partner and how he ended up with a Kung Fu practitioner as a sparring partner.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But would she beat a judo, bjj, mauy Thai, we can love our style but let’s be honest about why we do it, what it’s benefits are and what it’s limits are

I agree. Some people will do that. For me personally recognizing my limits are just as important as recognizing my strengths. I tell all of my students "fight where you are strong, not where you are weak." The only way to do such a thing is to recognize my limits and then make sure that no one manipulates me into fighting where I'm not effective.

But not everyone is going to be honest like that. Especially if the martial artist doesn't serve a functional purpose. If they don't use it then it doesn't matter. If they actually use what they train then it's going to matter right away even if you don't want it to.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You were saying g jow gar you could either walk in to a school where people fight.

Or walk in to a school where they don't.

yep. Everyone learns the same techniques, but not everyone learns how to apply it. So if fighting is a 10 step program then one school stops lessons at step 7 and the other stops the lessons at step 10. With 10 being fighting competition and 9 being applications sparring on a resisting partner / attacking partner.

The difference between the schools isn't in the techniques, It's in the time spent sparring with the techniques that are trained. I could go to a Jow Ga school that doesn't spar and still train the same techniques that were in my school. Even when people came to the school I trained in. Sparring was always optional. Kids are always more open to it. To them it was like play fighting (until they get the wind knocked out of them.). Adults tend to attach insecurities and excuses as to why they don't want to spar.

To give you an idea of it. I was kicked out of the school because "I focused too much on fighting" I was told that my vision of Jow Ga is not what Jow Ga is. If sparring was central to learning then that would have never been used for an excuse to kick me out of the school.
Fast forward about 9 years. The world gets introduced to MMA vs Kung fu master. As a result, many kung fu schools start putting that sparring element back into it and focusing on application a lot more. Originally Jow Ga schools were known for producing good fighters. Something changed and it became over focused on forms and lion dance. Now it's coming back to it's original roots.

 

[drop bear]

yep. Everyone learns the same techniques, but not everyone learns how to apply it. So if fighting is a 10 step program then one school stops lessons at step 7 and the other stops the lessons at step 10. With 10 being fighting competition and 9 being applications sparring on a resisting partner / attacking partner.

The difference between the schools isn't in the techniques, It's in the time spent sparring with the techniques that are trained. I could go to a Jow Ga school that doesn't spar and still train the same techniques that were in my school. Even when people came to the school I trained in. Sparring was always optional. Kids are always more open to it. To them it was like play fighting (until they get the wind knocked out of them.). Adults tend to attach insecurities and excuses as to why they don't want to spar.

To give you an idea of it. I was kicked out of the school because "I focused too much on fighting" I was told that my vision of Jow Ga is not what Jow Ga is. If sparring was central to learning then that would have never been used for an excuse to kick me out of the school.
Fast forward about 9 years. The world gets introduced to MMA vs Kung fu master. As a result, many kung fu schools start putting that sparring element back into it and focusing on application a lot more. Originally Jow Ga schools were known for producing good fighters. Something changed and it became over focused on forms and lion dance. Now it's coming back to it's original rooroots

Learning how to apply techniques is different to learning what the techniques are.

You are not describing the same system in any practical sense.

Might have the same name but it is literally teaching different things.

 

[drop bear]

That's just how some humans are. If you don't have the power to change this about human nature then it's pointless to make it an issue. The reality is that some people will take easy way out. The only thing you can do create a school that fits your ideal student. If you want a school that will be full of people who don't quit, then advertise to those type of people and that's all you'll have for students.

If you want to make a school for people who want the easy way out, then make a school for them and give out belts even though they are just participation rewards for showing up for a year of classes. Each year = new belt. If that's who you target market is then there's no point of being angry or disgusted about it. Those type of student were never going to the "no quit" school any way. At the end of the day regardless of what you teach. Your school will need to make enough money to stay open.


Yep. and I tell you why. Because there are people out there who are looking exactly for something like that. They aren't looking for the "no quit school" or the "work out hard school." An example during my first year training in the Jow Ga school that used to be in Georgia. An ex student's parent came to visit the school to show off his daughters black belt and how soon she got it. He told his daughter to show us her black belt form. It was horrible, the girl didn't have confidence and she knew that her form was horrible. Kids are young not stupid, they know when someone does something better than they can. She saw how her old classmates were training and you know it was an instant comparison. But that's not the point. The point is her father took her out of the Jow Ga school and enrolled her into another school who claimed that their training was more healthy for children. The father told us that his daughter didn't have to worry about injury to her joints from the impact of punching a pad. The girl was about 10 years old.

So, yest there are people out there who want that easy stuff. That's just the way things are. I didn't want students or parents like that in the school so I never marketed to potential student who fit that characteristic. The 2 instructors and I (before I became one) agreed that we would never seek students like that. The only option that you'll have as a school is either advertise to people like that or don't.

People who are looking for good workouts and practical martial arts don't want easy. When the original school first closed down. One of the Jow Ga students took TKD. She was disappointed because the training there didn't match the intensity of the training that we had at the school. Another example, a TKD student joined our school for about 3 months and never came back. In one of the classes he told his mom that kung fu was too hard. What we were doing wasn't hard. He just didn't want to do all of the conditioning exercises that we were doing. He wanted something easy so he left on his own. His mom was the one who wanted something challenging for her son.


There is a difference between knowing what it takes to learn something and being willing to do it. I know what it takes to be a doctor, but I'd easily settle for something easier. It can be frustrating sometimes to deal with people who always want the easy way out because their logic makes no sense to use. But sooner we can accept that there people like that, then the less time we'll spend on pointing them out and more time focusing on things functional martial arts that can be used in fighting. Instead of pointing out people who would never train where you train or see martial arts as the same as you do.

As for Detroit DUST. People who like him don't like the same things you like. They aren't the same people who would train in the same type of gym you train in. They definitely aren't the same people who would take Jow Ga kung fu. Instead of trying to change their minds I rather spend my time finding people who are interested in Jow Ga or training like I do. Which is how I ended up having an MMA guy as a sparring partner and how he ended up with a Kung Fu practitioner as a sparring partner.

Ok. Some schools will cater to a certain student.

But this in no way would recommend them as a school in which to learn self defence. Because fighting doesn't cater to a certain student.

I mean this is basically why people pick a bunch of combat sports as a base style over some cater to a lifestyle martial arts.

If you want to pick a best style for self defence you will need to sacrifice your personal likes and engage in the most effective process that will make you the best fighter.

Suggesting otherwise is dishonest.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Ok fair enough my friend, how

How?
I don't understand the question
you said

Yes I think it’s safe to say we do, I said earlier that boxing is the best hands only style, look what happened when a ufc champ Conor McGregor took on the boxing champ, he got wrecked, if an aikido champ went against a Gracie, it’s only going to end one way

I said there was a problem with that because Aikido is not a sport, therefore, no such thing as an Aikido champion

You replied with

Really

I said yup

and now you ask "How", which to be honest, I do not understand what you are asking

Well, I guess the only answer can be due to lack of an Aikido Competition...which brings us right back to, Aikido is not a sport, therefore no Aikido champion. You see, if there is no competition between aikidoka there is no way to declare a "Champion"

 

[JowGaWolf]

Might have the same name but it is literally teaching different things.

But it's the same system. You can't learn the application of a technique without learning what the techniques are. If I teach you how to jab, then you will see the technique before you learn it. You will train and drill the technique before you can use it. Just because it's 2 different things does not mean it's a different system.

Learning how to speak english and learning how to read english are 2 different things but they are the same system. English. A person can learn to speak English without having the applications skills to read and write english.