Seattletcj
Green Belt
Kreth/Don,
I dont believe what I said was rude, but if it was I apalogize. I will not edit one word of it though, and I cant believe you proposed the idea.
I think it should be expected that someone be called out when they give out incorrect information. This time it happens to be you that needed correcting. It may be rare that you are challenged here, but that does not make it a wrong thing to do.
I dont remember mentioning that anything should be added to the Bujinkan system, or that Hatsumi should push for conditioning. Did I miss something?
Thats a good definition. How do you go about avoiding a heart attack/ heart problems? What do you consider "other health problems" ? Because that is a very broad statement.
I had mentioned specifically strengthening the spine, which reduces the risk of many health problems. As would strengthening the legs, and the back. So you agree it is worthwhile?
I dont believe what I said was rude, but if it was I apalogize. I will not edit one word of it though, and I cant believe you proposed the idea.
I think it should be expected that someone be called out when they give out incorrect information. This time it happens to be you that needed correcting. It may be rare that you are challenged here, but that does not make it a wrong thing to do.
I dont remember mentioning that anything should be added to the Bujinkan system, or that Hatsumi should push for conditioning. Did I miss something?
Thats a good definition. How do you go about avoiding a heart attack/ heart problems? What do you consider "other health problems" ? Because that is a very broad statement.
I had mentioned specifically strengthening the spine, which reduces the risk of many health problems. As would strengthening the legs, and the back. So you agree it is worthwhile?
Seattletcj
Green Belt
Don Roley said:
Don, I think you missed his/her point. It had nothing to do with ninjas bulking up to play football
:cheers:
Seattletcj
Green Belt
Don Roley said:
That it is not worthwhile strengthening and conditioning the body (beyond walking and standing in deep kamae etc).
Seattletcj said:
That is your opinion.
The Japanese like Hatsumi seem to have a different opinion based on what we have seen. They have greater experience in the matter of taijutsu and are visible examples of the argument. The stories of Hatsumi's illenss seem to point towards a completely different conclusion. But you are dealing with your opinion that someone should do more than what the Japanese have laid out. Not a true or false situation.
Seattletcj
Green Belt
I probably shouldnt reply anymore, but I cant resist.
What exactly are you saying is my opinion?
Strengthening the spine, hips, knees, and back will assist in maintaining correct posture. When combined with a proprioceptive method such as taijutsu, taichi, feldenkrais, yoga etc the results are even better because the system forces you to be mindfull of your alignment during movement. This helps keep your muscles working at their ideal length, in their ideal positions, and limits stretching or deviating in the wrong directions during functional activities.
Using a proprioceptive method alone is not ideal because the muscles are not physically strong enough to maintain the ideal positions that you want them in for extended periods. This usually results in compensation somewhere, which means a domino effect of misalignment throughout the body(sometimes subtle). They need strengthing which means contraction . This is scientific fact.
Standing in a low kamae does not strengthen a muscle throughout its full range of motion. This method does not take advantage of the different ways a muscle contracts either (concentric,eccentric etc). It is a good stabalizing exercise for certain muscles and will get you to a certain level of strength. As muscle fatigue sets in though compensation such as hanging on ligaments and the use of incorrect muscle groups can occur, and may be hard to notice. Generally, muscle endurance is gained through progressively increasing repetitions of contractions, and strength through progressively increasing amounts of resistance.
This is scientific fact.
Walking is good for joints and circulation and helps maintain current levels of fitness, but cannot increase fitness, unless the length of the walk and/or the difficulty of the walk is constantly increased.
In order to increase cardiac endurance you must be brought to your target heart rate and maintain for a minimum of 20 minutes. To increase from there means increasing resistance and/or time.
This is scientific fact.
If you cant see how any of this relates to Bujinkan budo taijutsu then I dont know what else to say.
Again, I recommend that conversation that i linked to earlier on Kutaki. Rob Renner and Garth Lynch made some good points that are worth reading.
What exactly are you saying is my opinion?
Strengthening the spine, hips, knees, and back will assist in maintaining correct posture. When combined with a proprioceptive method such as taijutsu, taichi, feldenkrais, yoga etc the results are even better because the system forces you to be mindfull of your alignment during movement. This helps keep your muscles working at their ideal length, in their ideal positions, and limits stretching or deviating in the wrong directions during functional activities.
Using a proprioceptive method alone is not ideal because the muscles are not physically strong enough to maintain the ideal positions that you want them in for extended periods. This usually results in compensation somewhere, which means a domino effect of misalignment throughout the body(sometimes subtle). They need strengthing which means contraction . This is scientific fact.
Standing in a low kamae does not strengthen a muscle throughout its full range of motion. This method does not take advantage of the different ways a muscle contracts either (concentric,eccentric etc). It is a good stabalizing exercise for certain muscles and will get you to a certain level of strength. As muscle fatigue sets in though compensation such as hanging on ligaments and the use of incorrect muscle groups can occur, and may be hard to notice. Generally, muscle endurance is gained through progressively increasing repetitions of contractions, and strength through progressively increasing amounts of resistance.
This is scientific fact.
Walking is good for joints and circulation and helps maintain current levels of fitness, but cannot increase fitness, unless the length of the walk and/or the difficulty of the walk is constantly increased.
In order to increase cardiac endurance you must be brought to your target heart rate and maintain for a minimum of 20 minutes. To increase from there means increasing resistance and/or time.
This is scientific fact.
If you cant see how any of this relates to Bujinkan budo taijutsu then I dont know what else to say.
Again, I recommend that conversation that i linked to earlier on Kutaki. Rob Renner and Garth Lynch made some good points that are worth reading.
Seattletcj said:
I think that at some point in this I was talking about practicing in low kamae and not just standing.
As for the rest of the "facts" you lay out, do they really pertain to the idea of getting better at taijutsu?
You see, instead of taking time to condition myself at the gym, I think I would get better at taijutsu by actually practicing taijutsu.
I kind of take offense at the assumption that you present that anyone who does not want to take time to go to the gym is some sort of slob who prefers to eat nachos, drink beer and type on the internet. The time I would be using to condition is better served practicing the actual movements in taijutsu and doing things like hitting targets, etc.
And you fail to deal with the idea laid out that strength can actually be a distraction and lure away from proper training. No one is saying that they advocate an unhealthy lifestyle. But people from Technopunk's level to Hatsumi have all stated that they have found that they have unconsciously relied on strength instead of proper taijutsu and was only made aware of that when that strength was not availible. So the idea that begginers should train at conditioning might cause them to use the strength they gain rather than do proper taijutsu.
No one is saying that they would prefer a bad body to a good one. If everything else was the same between me and the other guy, I would love to have the better body. The matter is one of is how to learn the art and whether an emphisis on conditioning might be counter productive to learning skills.
Seattletcj
Green Belt
I understand your point Don, and your concerns are perfectly valid.
I think the benifits of having a strong (not buff) body greatly outweigh the *potential* negatives though. Who could really say if it would cause a problem for an individual? MAybe it would, maybe not. And if it did it could be corrected. Certainly strong spinal stabilizers, gluteus muscles(maximus,medius,minimus), leg adductors, and deep abdominal muscles will not interfere with technique!
Its should also be clear that a strong healthy body is not just for martial arts training, but for living better, longer lives. Can you hold on you your friends arm who has slipped off the edge of a rock face? Can you wear a heavy pack for prolonged periods of hiking? Can you run from someone with a knife? Does your back hurt? Does your neck hurt? Your knees?
Muscle strength around joints are not just good for generating power but for protecting against damage. A strong structure protects cartilage and ligaments from un-necessary wear and tear. Strong muscles also assist blood returning back to the heart, against gravity. They ensure blood circulation due to correct alignment, which increases the healing process and reduces the chances for certain helath problems/disease. All of this will help you move better when you are 70.
Much of this was not as well known, or as widely known years ago. We are lucky to have the technology and knowledge that we do now .
I think the benifits of having a strong (not buff) body greatly outweigh the *potential* negatives though. Who could really say if it would cause a problem for an individual? MAybe it would, maybe not. And if it did it could be corrected. Certainly strong spinal stabilizers, gluteus muscles(maximus,medius,minimus), leg adductors, and deep abdominal muscles will not interfere with technique!
Its should also be clear that a strong healthy body is not just for martial arts training, but for living better, longer lives. Can you hold on you your friends arm who has slipped off the edge of a rock face? Can you wear a heavy pack for prolonged periods of hiking? Can you run from someone with a knife? Does your back hurt? Does your neck hurt? Your knees?
Muscle strength around joints are not just good for generating power but for protecting against damage. A strong structure protects cartilage and ligaments from un-necessary wear and tear. Strong muscles also assist blood returning back to the heart, against gravity. They ensure blood circulation due to correct alignment, which increases the healing process and reduces the chances for certain helath problems/disease. All of this will help you move better when you are 70.
Much of this was not as well known, or as widely known years ago. We are lucky to have the technology and knowledge that we do now .
Seattletcj said:
Well, I look at the fact that it happened to Hatsumi and tend to think that it could happen to me very easily.
I would rather have a good body than a bad one. But I am in good enough of shape, especially for the lifestyle I live now. I no longer have to carry a rucksack 30 miles and then dig a defensive position.
Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2005
- Messages
- 1,462
- Reaction score
- 20
The benefits of physical conditioning are so vast, universal and common sense I dont understand where this thread is going. Trying to "bull" your way through a fight instead of using technique is not a damnation of strength and its illogical to conclude that the soultion is to make yourself weaker.
Brother John
Senior Master
It's very important that a martial artist be healthy and be in good enough athletic condition to be able to do whatever the tactics and moves of his art or of his preference says he should do.
If your art requires you to be able to leap up high and do multiple kicks from time to time....then you'll need a bit more 'athletic condition' than most. Grapplers need to have good endurance and better muscular endurance.
People intent on going several rounds of any kind of fight need to be in really great shape...
etc.
The conditioning should match the intensity, duration, frequency and patterns needed for the type of martial arts activity you intend to do.
That's pretty much all, but it is important.
Your Brother
John
If your art requires you to be able to leap up high and do multiple kicks from time to time....then you'll need a bit more 'athletic condition' than most. Grapplers need to have good endurance and better muscular endurance.
People intent on going several rounds of any kind of fight need to be in really great shape...
etc.
The conditioning should match the intensity, duration, frequency and patterns needed for the type of martial arts activity you intend to do.
That's pretty much all, but it is important.
Your Brother
John
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2003
- Messages
- 9,998
- Reaction score
- 206
Brother John said:
The only thing I have to say about that is since we dont compete... if we are in a fight and it goes several rounds, we really ****ed up somewhere.
Brother John
Senior Master
Technopunk said:
Very very true bro!
Thing is, I just saw this thread in the "New Posts" section and really didn't check to see that it was in the Ninjutsu section.
I'd have to say, then, that in Ninjutsu... it'd be important to have your fitness up to the level that if you needed to run to excape a threat, and wanted to hide to evade....You'd not want your 'panting' to give you away...
There....hows that?
But really, the gist of what I said still applies.... the fitness needs need to be formed depending on what you intend to do with them.
Your Brother
John
Grey Eyed Bandit
Master of Arts
I'm going to look hard to see if I can find the English translation of Takamatsu's autobiography somewhere, but in any case, one of the last things he writes in there is a commentary on people who claim to be able to channel energy with their breathing. He says that he's very happy for their sake if they're able to do that in order to endure several hours of prolonged combat.
DWeidman
Blue Belt
Technopunk said:
I normally stay out of these things, but this one is more than I can handle.
As much as I want to agree with this, it assumes we are a MUCH better fighter than the other person. Please, try to remember there are plenty of other people out there who can handle what you throw at them.
Also, try to remember that this is a combat art as well, and combat requires a heightened level of physical ability. Unless you are riding horseback and learning to shoot a bow and arrow, then you need to be able to move around a bit... and for LONGER than 5 mins...
As to the rest of it - why is strength and taijutsu ability always mutually exclusive? Is it **impossible** to be strong and good at the same time?
Can anyone here come up with tactical and strategic reasons to support being weaker and slower? Can anyone do the same for being stronger and faster?
The pro / con list for both is rather weighted... if you ask me...
-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...
-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
DWeidman said:I normally stay out of these things, but this one is more than I can handle.
As much as I want to agree with this, it assumes we are a MUCH better fighter than the other person. Please, try to remember there are plenty of other people out there who can handle what you throw at them.
Also, try to remember that this is a combat art as well, and combat requires a heightened level of physical ability. Unless you are riding horseback and learning to shoot a bow and arrow, then you need to be able to move around a bit... and for LONGER than 5 mins...
As to the rest of it - why is strength and taijutsu ability always mutually exclusive? Is it **impossible** to be strong and good at the same time?
Can anyone here come up with tactical and strategic reasons to support being weaker and slower? Can anyone do the same for being stronger and faster?
The pro / con list for both is rather weighted... if you ask me...
-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...
-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...
I would say you are both right.
Strength, speed and conditioning are definitely assets. But at the same time, good technique and skill can enable you to be successful without having to rely on strength as much as one with poor technique. It can even allow a physically weaker individual to be successful against a physically stronger individual.
But I don't think one could or would claim that being weaker, slower, and/or less well conditioned is something to strive for. While these assets are definitely important, good technique just makes them somewhat less crucial.
That being said, I think Technopunk is right, not just with the Bujinkan arts, but for any art, that if the fight lasts a long time then something went pretty wrong. On the street, I think the fight is either over quickly with one party the victor, or someone finds an exit fairly quickly and clears out in a hurry. One way or the other it ends without becoming a long, drawn out slug fest. Now, just how long "A LONG TIME" is, I suspect is something that people have different opinions on.
Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
- Joined
- Dec 15, 2005
- Messages
- 1,462
- Reaction score
- 20
The thing is, that kind of assumes that you HAVE to be and always will be superior to an opponent in technique and that you will either HAVE to win in the first few seconds or you are going to loose. If thats the case then isnt it the same thing for the other guy? Make it last longer than a few seconds for him and he looses right? What if the **** hits the fan and things dont go your way? Being able to outlast the other guy may be your means to victory. Get in the best shape you can under the circumstances you are given I say. No excuses.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Blotan Hunka said:
Of course. My only point is that good conditioning and/or good technique does not guarantee victory, and neither does a lack of good conditioning or good technique guarantee defeat. Both are important and both add to your chances of winning/escaping. All other things being equal, I think conditioning is important and my advice is that physical fitness should be part of anyone's training.
Monadnock
2nd Black Belt
Wouldn't we need some strength and endurance if we encountered more than one person? Or one person that isn't easily disposed of?
A lot of people would rather go to the gym to focus on buffing up and leave the combat lesssons for the dojo. I think a vigorous class workout can still aide development of these qualities. At least so the "shock" of getting hit in the face isn't such a big surprise out on the street.
A lot of people would rather go to the gym to focus on buffing up and leave the combat lesssons for the dojo. I think a vigorous class workout can still aide development of these qualities. At least so the "shock" of getting hit in the face isn't such a big surprise out on the street.
