Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
I agree with that 110%
I agree with that 110%
DWeidman said:
Daniel, I dont disagree with you, however my statement goes back to the idea of "going several rounds"... A "pro" fight round is (I believe) 3 or 5 minutes long, and I define "several" as more than 2. If I encounter a "skilled" fighter that I can match technique for technique for 9 - 15 minutes or longer... I need to either break and flee, or do SOMTHING to end the fight, because IMO thats a ******** thing to try and do on the street...
Understand, I am NOT against conditioning, I personally have been doing a LOT to change my physical makeup these past couple months...
However, I am also AGAINST the idea of using strength to "cheat" taijutsu, which is why I posted that we need to define good physical condition. I dont wanna look like arnold, but I certainly dont want to have a heart attack when the adrenaline hits durring a fight...
Technopunk said:
Ah.... Ok. Agreed - 100%. The caveat to this is multiple attackers, neh?
Honestly, most people who train in this art assume decisive victory within 30 seconds. Because that is how they train - attacker throws a punch, defenders puts him in the budo-blender for maybe 15 seconds and, 'viola! Instant decisive victory.
Technopunk said:
Please understand something - I am **completely** committed to learning things the right way... That means no more strength than is necessary (and, by the way, some strength *is* necessary).
Why does everyone who assumes you are in the gym working out is trying to look like Arnold - or trying to Bulk up like the Hulk?
I think we all know that unusable muscle mass isn't the ticket to victory in every confrontation. This is especially true if you are using weapons / force multipliers.
However, being able to hold your hands up after 2 mins of serious fighting is a handy thing to do.
Why does everyone point to the "ninja" aspects of the art when we talk about muscle and endurance? Last time I checked, we spent more time training in the non-ninjutsu schools (which outnumber the ninja schools 2 to 1 within the Bujinkan) - and probably hold a ratio above 100:1 as far as training time spent on them - when this topic comes up.
Do you walk into battle out of shape? Anyone? Who thinks the armed forces of the world, yesterday and today, sat around discussing whether or not getting into shape would "decrease" their skill? Do you think the warriors of the past (the ones that we have heard stories about) didn't use whatever tools they had to get into the best shape they could? Be glad you are born today, where we have great information on how to hone the human body...
This "I don't work out because I am afraid I will look like a 30 yr old instead of an 80 yr old" is a conversation for the "blessed" - those who aren't about to walk out into battle and face 5000+ other people hoping to put a hole in them.
Ask Sensei how he was training when he was 30. Read about how Takamatsu was training when he was 30. Etc Etc Etc.
Unless you are always planning on poisoning people... then don't worry about it. Oh... and buy a gun. Then stop going to class too...
Really people. It is VERY few who are at the elite status where they **GET** to say something like "I think my strength is inhibiting my growth in this art". If you aren't aware if you are using strength, then you have more to worry about then better subtle technique...
-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy.
PS. I never start these threads. If you want to be lazy or out of shape, I have NO problem with it. Honestly. The likelihood of needing to go several rounds is LOW unless you are in a high-risk category... I don't teach physical shape drills in my class because it is a choice you need to make as an adult, if you want to be in shape or not. It is your choice... I do, however, get miffed when I hear people talking about the "dangers" of being in good physical condition. And Nagato is still plenty strong right now... do you think he would be a lot better if he dropped another 50 lbs?
As to weight training... you are an idiot if you don't think you can use weight training to your advantage. Let me repeat, "IDIOT". Are there dangers associated with over-doing a weight routine? Of course - just like everything else... And I don't need to talk to someone in Japan to know that.
Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
I find deadlifting, done right, is one of the simplest, most "bang for the buck" exercises there is for combat strength development. Not that it should be the only lift you do, but IMO should be one of the core exercises. Find a qualified instructor to show you the proper form and you wont be disappointed. That and add in some sort of cardio training and you are on your way.
rutherford
Master Black Belt
And why do people think about taijutsu as an activity that won't lead you to be strong and healthy?
You could certainly have a complete excercise routine consisting of things found within Taijutsu. And, before you think it'll be cake remember that flips on your fingertips and running silently and endless pushups and hours striking makiwari and days in full armor swinging a huge club is all taijutsu.
And, I take back what I said about not being too strong for it to impact my taijutsu. I've thought about it a bit, and I know I'm already way too strong. We all are.
Personally, I still plan to grow stronger. And I think that we should all do what we love, what excites us, and what we think will push us to be better.
You could certainly have a complete excercise routine consisting of things found within Taijutsu. And, before you think it'll be cake remember that flips on your fingertips and running silently and endless pushups and hours striking makiwari and days in full armor swinging a huge club is all taijutsu.
And, I take back what I said about not being too strong for it to impact my taijutsu. I've thought about it a bit, and I know I'm already way too strong. We all are.
Personally, I still plan to grow stronger. And I think that we should all do what we love, what excites us, and what we think will push us to be better.
Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
Sure, Taijutsu is exercise. But like my Football comment, Football itself is exercise too. Running, throwing, pushing and tackling other people. But if you want to be a better football player you need to be running and hitting the weights.
rutherford
Master Black Belt
Blotan Hunka said:
But the point of the thread isn't to play football.
You seem to be ignoring that essential fact.
Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
Its a comparison between any type of "combat" literal or figurative (football is nothing more than a stylized combat metaphor) and physical conditioning.
Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
This is the martial artists version of the "ill just buy a gun" argument. "I dont need to exercise I just need better technique". It can kill you.
DWeidman said:
You know, the idea that if we don't go down to the gym we are lazy and out of shape is just so wrong and rude. I am not out of shape and I do a lot of training. I just don't do it as you would want.
Oh that has been mentioned. Both of them did things at that age that they regretted later on in life. Hence we do not do those things. Hatsumi does not make us do pushups or toughen up our hands.
Again, why don't those of you that think there should be conditioning in the Bujinkan take the issue up with the Japanese in Japan? Because if they thought we needed to go down to the gym as you say, why are they not mentioning it in class and in their writings?
rutherford
Master Black Belt
Blotan Hunka, you're the only person saying "I don't need to exercise."
It's a strawman arguement, and combat with strawmen isn't something I enjoy.
I'd rather get some exercise.
It's a strawman arguement, and combat with strawmen isn't something I enjoy.
I'd rather get some exercise.
Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
Mon Mon said:
This was the initial post on this thread, is it now about "What is taught in Japan"?
Blotan Hunka said:
Not speaking for anyone else, but for myself...I disagree... I DO belive there needs to be a middle ground. Enough fitness to DO the techniques for the durration of the fight... enough strength to stay on your feet, enough "endurance" that you don't fall over wheezing durring the fight/encounter... But you dont need to be a physical fitness guru to pull it off like some other arts where jump-spinning-back kicks require the extra strength to lift your bodyweight, spin and land properly, repeatedly, round after round in a ring.
I also believe that as your technique gets better and better, you will need less and less... thats WHY this art works so well for the old folk who do it... or guys with bad knees, or artificial hips like Papasan... BUT you gotta get there and that takes years.
Personally, I wouldnt mind being in better shape, for personal reasons unrelated to my Taijutsu... so I am doing somthing about it. But do I think its NECCESSARY, or am I in good enough shape to do it (taijutsu) now... *shrug*
rutherford
Master Black Belt
Blotan Hunka said:
This is a Japanese Martial Art.
That question is part of every thread.
Blotan,Blotan Hunka said:
Do you train in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu? If so, how do you draw a comparison between football and our training? When in fact, the principles between the two are very different. One using the principle of crashing through the wall to get to the other side, and the other having enough sense to use the door to get to the other side.
I can see how you might draw a slight comparison between football and combat (but that is a matter for another thread).
I workout because it is good for my health. It makes me healthier. If it helps my training (which it does in many areas) then that is a bonus.
Blotan Hunka
Master Black Belt
Technopunk said:
That all sounds completely logical, and I agree. But there is always the potential for a real fight to turn into a brawl where you WILL need to depend on your strength/conditioning. Its all relative though. I agree.
Grey Eyed Bandit
Master of Arts
Technopunk said:
It went straight to hell last monday. Those of you who want to know more may PM me.
Don Roley said:
Who is saying that??? Not me. Please find where someone said if you aren't in the gym you are lazy and out of shape?
I believe I said, "If you want to be lazy or out of shape, I have NO problem with it. Honestly." That has NOTHING to do with the gym - it only has to do with lazy and out of shape...
I don't care what you do. I don't care if you walk up stairs - walk your dog - or train with the olympic track team.
The gym has NOTHING to do with just being fit.
Don Roley said:
Bleh. It was good enough for him. It was good enough for his teacher... and good enough for thousands and thousands of martial artists before them. I am not going to cut that part of the training out... I don't care who says to...
Don Roley said:
Because I was given something to fill the space between my ears. I don't need someone else to tell me what to do... And I am not responsible for the Bujinkan. Only myself and my students (and really -- it is only myself). Has Sensei ever said, "if you go to the gym to get stronger, you will be kicked out of the Bujinkan?"
Unless someone has a salient argument against it... I am going to continue keeping fit (which INCLUDES going to the gym and working out regularly).
I think the part here that annoys me the most is that most of the people who argue against "bulking up" aren't coming from a position of knowledge and experience. When Nagato talks about slimming down - he was already ripped and strong before deciding he needed to work on the finer points. He didn't say, "I was never strong and fast, and that is on purpose because I *chose* to so my form would be better." That is what I hear most of the time, indirectly.
When you have slammed your hands into makiwara for years - you can look back and say, "I don't need to do that". It has a different feel for someone who has never hit anything hard in his life to say, "I don't hit things hard because Takamatsu said it wasn't important".
Forest for the trees... Forest for the trees.
-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...
Brother John
Senior Master
Is there anything published or put out by the Hombu Dojo concerning general fitness levels?
Your Brother
John
Your Brother
John
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