Being a Good Uke

[buddah_belly]

Do y'all have problems with people who have no clue how to uke? My Sensei and I have joked about having a "Good Uke" course because there is a major lack of committed attacks in our dojo. We have guys who "won't hit girls", girls who won't hit anyone, and me who accidently clocked a guy because I didn't pull my punch in time (but in my defense, he didn't tenkan like he was supposed to either.) I know that it's difficult because you don't want to hurt your classmates, but it's not doing anyone a favor if the attack isn't a committed one. I've stopped moving when I know uke isn't going to hit me anyway, because on top of being a waste of energy, it also keeps my technique from working properly. So am I the only one with this issue?

 

[theletch1]

Welcome to a VERY large club. We have several people in our dojo that are like that. They are for the most part the younger guys and one young lady who is an extreme introvert and is (I believe) using the aikido as a way to get over her shyness. I was working with one of the younger fellows the other night and he was supposed to attack with a straight push to the chest. With each attack his point of contact went further and further to the outside until finally I just didn't move at all and he missed me completely and lost his balance. These guys have been taken aback at the "ferocity" of the training between some of the more aggresive students. Repeatedly explaining that half hearted attacks were not conducive to good training hasn't done any good what so ever. Sensei remarks constantly that being a good uke can be as much a learning experience as doing the technique. Depending on who I'm working with I'll work from half ma-ai and aim for the head on an attack. Others are from full ma-ai and my aim point is the shoulder. I believe that a half hearted attack is the result of a fear of injury to themselves or others and not knowing their ukemi well enough. Fear of injuring others brings up the question of whether or not the aikido-ka would be able to use the techs to defend themselves on the street. Do they have the "killer" instinct or the deep enough sense of self preservation needed to injure others in defense of themselves?

 

[buddah_belly]

I feel like, if you are dumb enough to attack me on the street, you're gonna get it whether I choose to use aikido or not, but then again, I have an anger problem. Besides, I don't do this expecting to have to use it in real life.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Even if only a hobbyist or practicing for buDO reasons, it's nice to have a chance to practice well. Crappy uke's kinda take the fun out of exploring the subtleties of technicial proficiency.

 

[RCastillo]

I'm a "Pro" at it. With my "Fist Man" suit, I may just hire myself out. It's about time I got my 15 minutes of fame here. :uhyeah:

 

[Bushigokoro9]

Let me start off by saying that I am not an aikido stylist.

In my dojo the tori / uke role is very important. The rule we follow is I am going to have a committed attack. I will put full intention of hitting you in my movement / attack. I want you to feel my intention of hitting you. If you do not move accordingly then you will be hit. There is a general agreement that I will not pull or shank punches and you will do the same for me. We do not go full speed with the lower rank nor do we counter or reverse on them. While being uke if the tori does not do the technique correctly we will not go down for them. We feel that this is not helping the person understand or feel how the technique needs to be done. I do agree with everyone here that it is an issue but it can be resolved with proper uke instruction when they begin training.

Best Regards,
Safe training!
Bushigokoro

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I took an aikido class at junior college years ago for easy credit (I'd had it before). It was laughable. You didn't even really need to touch the people who were seniors in the class before they would go flying. Had a woman-wants-to-be-a-man for the assistant instructor, who inflated her ego by having these cooperative colored belts latch on, then dive around in circles while not releasing her wrists. Being respectful, I waited for the end of the semester. Being a smartass, I raised my concerns with the sensei at the end of the semester. We discussed, and settled on a couple of different experiments.

1. I'll throw a lead-hand finger jab to the center of your forehead, and bruise you right in between the eyes, with the understanding that moving to the right or left justa bit changes the outcome dramatically; you do to me whatever you can/want.
2. I'll grab your wrist, but won't cooperate. If you can't throw me, I don't go down. Using brute force, balance accomodations, and eventual release, your stuff won't cut it.
3. I'll come at you with a bull-rush tackle and takedown, and you can do whatever you can/like to stop or redirect or counter me.
4. I'll come at you with a short shinai in FMA stick-fighting style (he wore a scooter helmet for this one), and you defend any way you like.
5. I'll come at you in full ball-bat style swing with a full-length shinai, and you can defend any way you like.

The only one he did well on was the full-length shinai swung at him like a ball bat...he deftly intercepted me, and dumped me on my unceremonious butt. Everything else? Left him shaken up. He had not realized how dependent he had become on cooperative uke for successful completion in dealing with an attack. The red raw spot between his eyes from the finger jab was testament to what he was not accostumed to recieving...an honest attack by his training partners.

Bumped in to it again in the ninjutsu segment at an MMA camp. Teaching ichimonji, where you step off the line of attack from a straight punch, and counter-strike the extensor compartment of the forearm of his extended strike. Put to it at true speed with ill intent, they couldn't pull it off. 3rd try, the guy finally just backed up (changing maai).

Train hard, or get off the mat.

Just a thought.

Dr. Dave

 

[theletch1]

When doing classic technique (learning/practicing the tech from a static position) a good, co-operative uke is a must to explore the tech and get the mechanics correct. When you move on to combat application of a technique then, by all means, resist. Just make the attack realistic enough for me to actually react with good technique. That's the point of BBs original post. The co-operation she is asking for at that point in training is actually trying to tag her. You adjust your attack to the experience of tori. A more experienced tori gets a faster punch/kick from a closer distance and more and more resistance as time goes by.

 

[Bushigokoro9]

"The only one he did well on was the full-length shinai swung at him like a ball bat...he deftly intercepted me, and dumped me on my unceremonious butt. Everything else? Left him shaken up. He had not realized how dependent he had become on cooperative uke for successful completion in dealing with an attack. The red raw spot between his eyes from the finger jab was testament to what he was not accostumed to recieving...an honest attack by his training partners.

Bumped in to it again in the ninjutsu segment at an MMA camp. Teaching ichimonji, where you step off the line of attack from a straight punch, and counter-strike the extensor compartment of the forearm of his extended strike. Put to it at true speed with ill intent, they couldn't pull it off. 3rd try, the guy finally just backed up (changing maai)."


I have also run into the same thing as well. I have also trained with some Aikido and Ninjutsu (Bujinkan and ex Buj) instructors who could definitely defend themselves when a realistic attack was made. I believe that it is the instructor quality not the actual system. Granted there are a number of instructors (does not matter what system) who suck when it comes to realistic application or training. Some is even more predominate in particular systems then in others. People will fight like they train. If the school trains realistic then the techniques should not fail.

Most of the techniques that are in combat systems have worked for hundreds of years and they have survived countless tests in combat. The question is did the instructor change the technique or does the instructor not understand the principles at work? If that is the case they are simply trying to duplicate something that they see as being effective and hope for the best. As you pointed out, test the instructor, after all you will be learning from this person. Like you, I want to judge the instructors quality.

Best Regards,
Bushigokoro

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

A big piece for me along this same line is...Has the instructor ever been in a fight? I think deeper understandings of practical applications of techniques come from trying to pull them off in the heat of the crucible of personal combat. I don;t thik I can, in good conscience, submit to learn how to fight from a guy who's never been tested in an altercation. Just my own thing.

D.

 

[MisterMike]

I used to think that was a bit of a requirement when I first looked upon the Martial Arts. Now another point of view is that I hold in high regard anyone who hasn't put themselves in the situation to have to fight.

A lot of "old school" dojos still train hard enough to put you in a situation rivaling that of a street fight.

 

[theletch1]

I used to think that was a bit of a requirement when I first looked upon the Martial Arts. Now another point of view is that I hold in high regard anyone who hasn't put themselves in the situation to have to fight.

A lot of "old school" dojos still train hard enough to put you in a situation rivaling that of a street fight.

Mike, I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. It sounds very cliche to say that it takes a bigger man to walk away from a fight than to simply start throwing punches but it is indeed true. Talking your way out of an altercation requires a confidence in yourself, a cool head and the ability to put your ego to the side for a while. If the instructor is technically competent, able to teach and can use "mental Tai sabaki" to end a confrontation before it becomes physical then he has my respect.

In my dojo you will see pairs of students working at a great many levels of intensity. I train as aggresively as I can depending on uke (or nage if I'm uke). Those that are timid will find me trying to push their limits without overwhelming them. I also try to keep in mind (and respect) the reason that the individual is training in the first place. If I know that they are studying for a reason other than SD then I'll work at a slower pace and concentrate on the finer points of the technique. The SD guys get what they can handle, or what I can handle for the guys that are more advanced than I.

 

[MisterMike]

I like that - "Mental Tai Sabaki"

Andeven in the opposite scenario - If I were attacked and did have to defend myself, successfully or not, it should have no bearing on my credentials as a teacher. But it's always food for those war stories while sitting around the campfire

 

[theletch1]

I like that - "Mental Tai Sabaki"

Andeven in the opposite scenario - If I were attacked and did have to defend myself, successfully or not, it should have no bearing on my credentials as a teacher. But it's always food for those war stories while sitting around the campfire

I've never been one for the war stories. My first instructor used to "wax nostalgic" about fights he had been in and I always found myself thinking that the whole thing could have been avoided by a little less ego. If anything the number of fights the he claimed to have been in somewhat lessened his credibility as a teacher. Every time I heard him say that the art was a last resort I would hear one of his war stories in my head.

 

[Bushigokoro9]

The following link pertains to this question quite nicely. Mr. Ken Harding wrote this article.


http://www.mbdojo.com/uke.html

Bushigokoro

 

[theletch1]

The following link pertains to this question quite nicely. Mr. Ken Harding wrote this article.


http://www.mbdojo.com/uke.html

Bushigokoro

That's an excellent article and nails the "job description" of uke.

 

[Bushigokoro9]

Mr. Harding is pretty awesome! I too like his principles and rules of being uke.

Best Regards,
Bushigokoro

 

[Yari]

I agree that there are many poeple no behaving as a "good" uke. I has irritated me a long time, and I've advocated in our dojo for better uke's and the such. But as time has taken it's toll on me a nother thought has arisen.

As life is not standard, and can't be model. Life's situations will no be 100% as we do in the dojo. People are indivuduals, and will do things there own way. The will throw punches in weird paths, stop in the middel of falls and so on. So now I try another kind of approach. When using a "bad" uke I addapt. I change my technique just enough to keep to the correct technique but also addapt to the "bad" uke. This gives my pratice an extra doimension, and a little bit closer to reality.

/YAri

 

[theletch1]

Yari, I adapt to each uke that I have as best I can. There are odd uke's and then there are "bad" uke's. An odd uke sends the punch in a weird path but would still connect with a punch somewhere on your body. I've got a couple of uke's (and I'm talking yon-kyu level) that can attack with a straight push to the chest and miss my entire body with out me ever moving. The best reaction there is no reaction. It doesn't matter how uke attacks so long as they are willing to hit me. If they want to walk through a technique in slow motion that's fine. I'll go through slowly and work on the fine points. If they want to attack the waistline, fine. But, by all mean, attack something. The only real problem I have as far as a "bad" uke are those that attack in a way that I have to move toward them to line up for the attack so that the attack will hit me. I don't even mind this from a mudansha but after you've been in the dojo a few times and had it explained that an attack should be an attack there really is no excuse for attacks that won't connect. When an uke struggles against an attack that just allows me to realize what I'd have to do on the street to make it work so fighting an attack is not a problem.

Glad to see you back in here, Yari. Been a while. How's the family and job going?

 

[donald]

:uhyeah: I think that a good uke is born rather than made. My lousy uke attributes cost me a mcl injury. I was working with a guy who was getting ready to test for 1st black. He went through a number techniques kinda slow, and then suddenly switched gears. I can't for the life of me remember the tek, but it HURT... He went to take out my left leg while the instructor was continuing to comment on his performance. I was paying attention too much to her commentary(ever the student)as he went on through his work. As I refocused my attention on the guy. He suddenly went full bore, and I was on the floor writhing in agony. While the instructor looked at my leg in horror. After getting over the initial shock. I asked if she wouldf run next door for some ice. After about 20 min., I then drove my self to the hospital. Talk about kenpo adding insult to injury.

:asian: