Become a fighting machine

[Gerry Seymour]

Ok. specifically. You train sd techniques. But you cant really train them against people from the same club because they dont give the correct responses. So you have to train people to give pretend responses. which means you can only train resisted with guys who are only pretending to stop you. And all of that is based on some sort of assumption that is how a person will react in a different environment. Based on videos and mabye some anecdotal evidence.

add that to techniques you cant even train resisted because they cripple your partner.

And that becomes the lynch pin to your effective fighting.

Again, you are ignoring that not everything we do is trained this way. Yes, we do simulate the kind of resistance/movement we expect (based upon evidence) from an untrained attacker. We ALSO practice against the resistance we (with our training) give each other. Two different practices, because there are two sets of responses. Simulation isn't something fake - its' a way to address specific situations and prepare for them. You do this too, by the way. When you train to do, let's say, a BJJ-style ground arm bar, do you just HOPE the person feeds you the motions and positions that make it available, or do you force it regardless of what they give you, or do you have them feed you a situation that makes that particular move a good idea? The answer, of course, is the latter. Later, you progress to actually finding it within the context of normal fight movement. That's the same progression we use, with the difference being that some of the attacks we are learning to defend are unlikely to happen in the context of a training area, because of the training of our opponents.

As for those techniques which cannot safely be trained against full resistance (notice the difference in terms?), that's a safety issue. I would love to be able to do them at full speed against full resistance, but it's simply unsafe. MMA and other competition doesn't deal with those - they typically get banned either from the start or after a few injuries.

And what you are left with is a system basde on a whole buch of guess work. Which is a whole bunch of baggaged compared to just two guys wreslting rolling or punching each other.

Those two guys aren't doing something that looks like an attack on the street, though. And that's what we're training for. We do the two guys wrestling punching each other - a fact you're conveniently forgetting yet again to make a stab at fraud-busting against SD-oriented programs. Yes, we use some training techniques that are not used for competition. They frankly make no sense for competition. But we also use many of the same training techniques as competition does...because, as you firmly imply, they work well.

Your training ground is the real world. The concrete does not help you defend takedowns. Takedown defence helps you defend takedowns.

Yes. Not sure I've ever said anything different. The concrete is an advantage when we are throwing, not in avoiding takedowns.

You dont need training in eyegouging to successfully eye gouge. It is like saying you need to train to make a fist. (Ok sometimes you do but it 10% of your focus) Training in striking and grappling makes you good at eyegouging.

Actually, you do need to train to make a fist, unless you already know how. I have students come in whose fist is too weak, too open, or just all kinds of wrong. Otherwise, yes, you are correct. We don't spend time practicing eye-gouging. For the most part, I simply point out where it would be a good option. Then students can simulate (gasp!) eye gouges during some of their defense drills.

So we start from an internal scrip. An attack wont look like a sparring match because of "video evidence"

And there is no evidence that comes with this statement. I am pretty sure I was the only person who showed actual video evidence of real attacks.

Ah! Now you're making some sense. Okay, I didn't realize you were unaware of attacks that didn't look like sparring/rolling. You never asked about that. I'll dig some up later today and post a few for you. For the record, I never said ALL attacks don't look like that; I'll actually include a few that do match the movements of the competition context. It's not an "internal script" if it's based upon evidence. You simply assume I don't have any because I didn't provide it without being asked.

Remeber about baggage and stories?

You may not see BJJ flying triangles but. You will see. (And people forget the topic) MMA punching, kicking, takedowns and punching guys on the deck. The bulk of what someone should be training in self defence. It is a different sport. There are different emphasis on training time.

Yes. Those are all part of our training. However, organized attacks like that are not the bulk of what I see in the video evidence. They are a portion - an increasingly significant portion - but not the majority. Others I've found (all found in both video evidence and in reports from bouncers, LEO's, and others with reliable backgrounds) include "one and done" attacks, rushing tackles (rarer now), step-up stabbings, grab-and-throw (using clothing to sling the victim), hard shoves, slaps, kicks to the groin, hard foot stomps, and hair pulling (mostly between women, but not exclusively). Some of those have analogues in MMA. None are exactly represented there.

Correct. But my argument is for the people who start from the same base. If you punched kicked and grappled well in that basic resisted manner and then applied that to self defence specific circumstances you would have a self defence system.

No argument there. That is a valid approach. It's not the only one, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

 

[drop bear]

Again, you are ignoring that not everything we do is trained this way. Yes, we do simulate the kind of resistance/movement we expect (based upon evidence) from an untrained attacker. We ALSO practice against the resistance we (with our training) give each other. Two different practices, because there are two sets of responses. Simulation isn't something fake - its' a way to address specific situations and prepare for them. You do this too, by the way. When you train to do, let's say, a BJJ-style ground arm bar, do you just HOPE the person feeds you the motions and positions that make it available, or do you force it regardless of what they give you, or do you have them feed you a situation that makes that particular move a good idea? The answer, of course, is the latter. Later, you progress to actually finding it within the context of normal fight movement. That's the same progression we use, with the difference being that some of the attacks we are learning to defend are unlikely to happen in the context of a training area, because of the training of our opponents

And this is the infamous good training that video cannot capture.

If you were to become a fighting machine the bulk of your training should be based around what you can actually do pretty much unfiltered.

 

[drop bear]

Yes. Those are all part of our training. However, organized attacks like that are not the bulk of what I see in the video evidence. They are a portion - an increasingly significant portion - but not the majority. Others I've found (all found in both video evidence and in reports from bouncers, LEO's, and others with reliable backgrounds) include "one and done" attacks, rushing tackles (rarer now), step-up stabbings, grab-and-throw (using clothing to sling the victim), hard shoves, slaps, kicks to the groin, hard foot stomps, and hair pulling (mostly between women, but not exclusively). Some of those have analogues in MMA. None are exactly represented there.

This leads in an interesting direction as good mma defends a lot of other styles without having to actively defend that style so much.

Good head position defends hair grabs. Good ground and pound defends guard. There are these basic defences that structurally work against a lot of concepts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And this is the infamous good training that video cannot capture.

And where, ever, did I ever claim that it cannot be captured?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This leads in an interesting direction as good mma defends a lot of other styles without having to actively defend that style so much.

Good head position defends hair grabs. Good ground and pound defends guard. There are these basic defences that structurally work against a lot of concepts.

Agreed. This is where the generalized principles come into play. Defending against a rushing tackle draws on bits and pieces of defending against shooting, defending against 2-leg takedowns, etc. It's more a matter of improving ability in those specific areas and having responses for them that work for the students involved. Remember, we're not talking about the kind of people who are going to train for MMA competition. These folks will always start a bit softer, and won't spend as many hours per week, so they need a few different tools and a different approach to avoid injury. I was one of them when I started, then I wasn't because I often trained with high intensity and for many hours a week, and now I am again as Generally Crappy Knee Syndrome has begun to limit my options and the amount of time I can spend on some activities.

 

[drop bear]

And where, ever, did I ever claim that it cannot be captured?

Man come on all that good training out there and none of it winds up on youtube.

I suspect dark magic.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed. This is where the generalized principles come into play. Defending against a rushing tackle draws on bits and pieces of defending against shooting, defending against 2-leg takedowns, etc. It's more a matter of improving ability in those specific areas and having responses for them that work for the students involved. Remember, we're not talking about the kind of people who are going to train for MMA competition. These folks will always start a bit softer, and won't spend as many hours per week, so they need a few different tools and a different approach to avoid injury. I was one of them when I started, then I wasn't because I often trained with high intensity and for many hours a week, and now I am again as Generally Crappy Knee Syndrome has begun to limit my options and the amount of time I can spend on some activities.

A lot of the defences against a rushing tacke. Everything from the downward elbows to guillotine chokes are basically nullified by good basic tackling.

So learning that good tackle. Just trumps those less effective defences and because then you need higher percentage defences. Like crossface sprawl or shucking the head if you have room. You effectively allready start with better basics.

This is where people say it is the people not the systems. But there is a reason the systems exist.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Man come on all that good training out there and none of it winds up on youtube.

I suspect dark magic.

I've never really taken the time to capture very much of my teaching. And what I have captured is in pictures and one very lousy one-angle video I haven't had a chance to review yet. I know a lot of instructors, and almost none of them video their classes (though a few do video portions of tests). And none of those, as far as I know, upload those videos to places like YouTube. What they upload are teaching videos, which demonstrate techniques and discuss the principles. You won't, of course, see any fully-resisted sparring in a video that's demonstrating a technique for teaching purposes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A lot of the defences against a rushing tacke. Everything from the downward elbows to guillotine chokes are basically nullified by good basic tackling.

So learning that good tackle. Just trumps those less effective defences and because then you need higher percentage defences. Like crossface sprawl or shucking the head if you have room. You effectively allready start with better basics.

This is where people say it is the people not the systems. But there is a reason the systems exist.

Agreed. This is why we practice against those kinds of attacks, which aren't likely to occur during just sparring and rolling. We get a chance to work on the kinds of movement (built into our system, and used within other techniques and defenses) that actually allows us to handle that kind of attack. For us, the primary movement is a combination of stepping back offline and redirecting the main force of the tackle. Those are movements built into and trained with multiple techniques - basics, but applied differently under that type of attack.

 

[drop bear]

I've never really taken the time to capture very much of my teaching. And what I have captured is in pictures and one very lousy one-angle video I haven't had a chance to review yet. I know a lot of instructors, and almost none of them video their classes (though a few do video portions of tests). And none of those, as far as I know, upload those videos to places like YouTube. What they upload are teaching videos, which demonstrate techniques and discuss the principles. You won't, of course, see any fully-resisted sparring in a video that's demonstrating a technique for teaching purposes.

So you are still trying to say that nobody is putting representative videos of the good training that they are doing. Just the small percentage of compliant training.

You realise that dosent seem very likley?

Otherwise even the compliant videos have serious issues. for example if you are getting wailed on just stand there with your hands down ready to flop over.

Even this training has all sorts of technical issues.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you are still trying to say that nobody is putting representative videos of the good training that they are doing. Just the small percentage of compliant training.

You realise that dosent seem very likley?

Otherwise even the compliant videos have serious issues. for example if you are getting wailed on just stand there with your hands down ready to flop over.

Even this training has all sorts of technical issues.

I'm saying that the folks I know don't post much as far as video, period. Those that do, are posting instructional/informational videos, rather than recordings of training. I'm aware of the types of video you're referring to - and those problems (like "attackers" waiting out long series of responses) make me cringe, too. Some of them, I can see the purpose in the overly-compliant method being used, and my real problem is with the overly-complicated response being taught.

 

[drop bear]

Agreed. This is why we practice against those kinds of attacks, which aren't likely to occur during just sparring and rolling. We get a chance to work on the kinds of movement (built into our system, and used within other techniques and defenses) that actually allows us to handle that kind of attack. For us, the primary movement is a combination of stepping back offline and redirecting the main force of the tackle. Those are movements built into and trained with multiple techniques - basics, but applied differently under that type of attack.

So for fighting. You practice a set of defences that would be used in the context of sparring. Then you practice another set of defences that would be used if the person was sloppy or has some sort of different style of fighting.

And you dont think that is a bit unwieldy?

I mean good technique works against sloppy fighters. Good technique works against other systems.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So for fighting. You practice a set of defences that would be used in the context of sparring. Then you practice another set of defences that would be used if the person was sloppy or has some sort of different style of fighting.

And you dont think that is a bit unwieldy?

I mean good technique works against sloppy fighters. Good technique works against other systems.

It's not always different techniques. It's a different response, though. Remember that the style I teach varies response based upon the amount of physical energy committed by the attacker, so the response to a rushing attack may use the same technique as a shoving attack (assuming enough forward momentum is committed to the shove), but we'd move differently within the technique to accept that momentum in and redirect it. If we don't practice against that attack, we don't practice working with that rushing momentum in that way. The same goes for the difference between a one-handed shove, a straight punch, and a grab at the shirt. The initial movement is the same for both, but different amounts of forward momentum (energy) are committed to each, so the response has to vary with it.

We also train for those moments when our awareness fails us - when head movement doesn't avoid a hair grab, because we didn't see the attack coming. Not knowing an attack is coming doesn't happen in a competition unless someone decides to start before the ref starts the fight, and even then it just came earlier than expected rather than being wholly unexpected.

 

[drop bear]

It's not always different techniques. It's a different response, though. Remember that the style I teach varies response based upon the amount of physical energy committed by the attacker, so the response to a rushing attack may use the same technique as a shoving attack (assuming enough forward momentum is committed to the shove), but we'd move differently within the technique to accept that momentum in and redirect it. If we don't practice against that attack, we don't practice working with that rushing momentum in that way. The same goes for the difference between a one-handed shove, a straight punch, and a grab at the shirt. The initial movement is the same for both, but different amounts of forward momentum (energy) are committed to each, so the response has to vary with it.

We also train for those moments when our awareness fails us - when head movement doesn't avoid a hair grab, because we didn't see the attack coming. Not knowing an attack is coming doesn't happen in a competition unless someone decides to start before the ref starts the fight, and even then it just came earlier than expected rather than being wholly unexpected.

Where mma does not. It is one system designed to cut through other systems in terms of simplicity. The same fight in the gym in the ring in the street for the most part.

At its core. And from there you get expression as relates to the individual.

This is why mma fighters can sit in a bjjers guard. not because they know bjj better than the other guy but because they know that bjj needs to take position before they get submission.

Not knowing an attack is coming happens every time someone suckers you into an attack. You spend plenty of time recovering from being off footed in mma. Same as if you have just been ambushed in the street.

This is the point. Ok so I am walking down the street and someone pops out of the shadows and punches me. Well I have been there before in the gym having to recover find my defence and counter.

So that punch sent me to the deck. Well I have been there befor and now have to work a basic get up.

They are not specified environments they are themes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Where mma does not. It is one system designed to cut through other systems in terms of simplicity. The same fight in the gym in the ring in the street for the most part.

At its core. And from there you get expression as relates to the individual.

This is why mma fighters can sit in a bjjers guard. not because they know bjj better than the other guy but because they know that bjj needs to take position before they get submission.

Not knowing an attack is coming happens every time someone suckers you into an attack. You spend plenty of time recovering from being off footed in mma. Same as if you have just been ambushed in the street.

This is the point. Ok so I am walking down the street and someone pops out of the shadows and punches me. Well I have been there before in the gym having to recover find my defence and counter.

So that punch sent me to the deck. Well I have been there befor and now have to work a basic get up.

They are not specified environments they are themes.

Being attacked while entirely unaware is not the same as being hit while standing facing an opponent - it's an entire change of mental state. The physical recovery can be the same, and dealing with getting surprised in the ring will definitely help with some of the state change.

I'm not here to debate the efficacy of MMA. You seem to REALLY want what I do (and, in fact all SD-oriented programs) to be really complicated. It's not so much, unless someone (like me) wants to keep digging deeper and deeper layers as a personal academic pursuit. The basics are fairly simple, though some of the techniques can be complex (like those arm bars are in BJJ). You speak of MMA as if it's something wholly separate from other areas of MA. It isn't - it's derived and distilled from other areas. Many of the principles overlap several different arts, as do many of the techniques.

I'm not sure why you have such a personal drive to try to tell me what must be wrong with what I do. It works for the people I know who've used it to defend themselves. It works for the people who study it. It even works for the cops and bouncers I know that use it on the job.

What I do is a different approach than what you do. What I do wouldn't work well in a competition setting - we don't train for that. What you do does work well, so why has this become so personal for you?

 

[drop bear]

eing attacked while entirely unaware is not the same as being hit while standing facing an opponent - it's an entire change of mental state. The physical recovery can be the same, and dealing with getting surprised in the ring will definitely help with some of the state change.

What change of mental state? I am not sure having the sucker punched in the street mental state and the eaten an uppercut in the gym mental state as two separate entities is at all helpful. Why would you bother?

 

[drop bear]

I'm not here to debate the efficacy of MMA. You seem to REALLY want what I do (and, in fact all SD-oriented programs) to be really complicated. It's not so much, unless someone (like me) wants to keep digging deeper and deeper layers as a personal academic pursuit. The basics are fairly simple, though some of the techniques can be complex (like those arm bars are in BJJ). You speak of MMA as if it's something wholly separate from other areas of MA. It isn't - it's derived and distilled from other areas. Many of the principles overlap several different arts, as do many of the techniques.

You have two responses to counter ether a street style attack or a trained attack. That is a lot to process in the few seconds an attack will take. That is complicated.

I don't want sd to be complex. It does that to itself. And generally focused on areas that could be time spent to better use.

I do speak of mma as a separate entity. Because if you don,t understand where it differs from other systems you dont understand the arguments you should be making.

A lot of times you have pretty much suggested it is bjj with punching. It isn't. Understanding how mma uses unique concepts will help you understand how those concept fit into self defence.

Or to put it another way. Almost nobody does flying triangles or butt flops or a lot of other things that just incorrectly get atributed to mma.

 

[Hyoho]

Hey Guys! first off sorry for the silly topic name, and sorry if posted in wrong section!

Im just got started to MMA ( focus on striking, wrestling and jiu jitsu ) i do mma twice a week, and then im in the gym 4 for strength and look, for 45 -60 minutes only. I have some questions for you. The ONLY reason why i do workout beside keeping myself healthy is self defense. I have been attacked twice by a group, and stabbed one of the times. Not because of my attitude, once because i stood up for my girlfriend and the other, because i was at the wrong place at the wrong place. So now i have decide i wanna be able to defend myself, IF talking or running, aint the option. So do you guys think that mma is a good thing, together with strength training. For this purpose?

The otherside i know a important thing, of getting stronger, bigger and faster, is the diet. I eat a lot of beef and veggies, and water. Dont eat to many carbs, only around working out, im mostly eating to get my proteins.

Viking

Well if you cant fight none of this is going to work. People in this sort of situation use weapons. Its 2016.

MMA has rules. No rules on the street. Get yourself a taser but most of all avoid confrontation if you can.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not sure why you have such a personal drive to try to tell me what must be wrong with what I do. It works for the people I know who've used it to defend themselves. It works for the people who study it. It even works for the cops and bouncers I know that use it on the job.

It is a discussion on concepts.

It is not so much wrong as a long way to go to gain a skill. Especially as a fighting machine in the case of this thread.

And i thought you couldn't spar because of the danger. How to people bounce using those techniques?

It is not personal it is basically a technical discussion.

You have to understand why something doesn't work in the ring. Not the illegal stuff. But the overlap. Generally there is a simple mechanical reason.

 

[Hyoho]

What I do is a different approach than what you do. What I do wouldn't work well in a competition setting - we don't train for that. What you do does work well, so why has this become so personal for you?

I can only read you comments so I am guessing you are responding to the person who I blocked that always "Gets personal".