Become a fighting machine

[JowGaWolf]

Anecdotal evidence is the best evidence.

Not sure what that has to do with you answering the question. The question can still be answered regardless of if you believe it or not.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It's still a single event. That's weak evidence, and JGW's reply was reasonable, though less documented.

Don't worry about Hanzou's nonsense. I used to show proof of the techniques that I claimed to be able to do by showing videos and Hanzou still talked nonsense after the videos. Even if I sparred with Hanzou and showed him personally, he would still be on the MMA band wagon.

I'm not going to sit here waste my time arguing about an event where I was actually there as an active participant. Hanzou doesn't validate my life nor reality so. The most that his arguments will do is make me less likely to share knowledge and information with him.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I thought even anecdotes were to have a source. That is what makes them not stories.

In this case the source is the person who was an active participant in the sparring.

 

[Hanzou]

Not sure what that has to do with you answering the question. The question can still be answered regardless of if you believe it or not.

The point is that we have evidence of a Hung Gar practitioner with 30+ years experience losing badly to a MMA practitioner with far less experience. Further, we have evidence of said HG practitioner being unable to fight on a reasonable level.

We have zero evidence of you taking down a MMA fighter the way you described.

I'm sure there are several MMA/Bjj gyms you can head to in your area, and I'm sure you can find someone to record your exploits. Heck, I've heard that some MMA/Bjj gyms enjoy that sort of thing and will record you themselves. I'm willing to bet that there's plenty of MMA/Bjj gyms who would love to host you. They would love to spar against a Kung Fu practitioner who believes that he can stuff their takedowns with traditional Kung Fu.

What's stopping you? If I were in your place, I would certainly do it. Like I told you before, you could easily make yourself quite a lot of money.

 

[JowGaWolf]

We have zero evidence of you taking down a MMA fighter the way you described.

Where did I say i took down an MMA fighter?
From post #89
"It's doesn't say anything about the system and a lot about Sherif Bey. I have no where near 30 years of experience, and I have sparred against an Amateur MMA fighter and I wasn't rattled nor was I knocked out. So what does that say about Hung Ga? That I didn't get knocked out?"

As for evidence. I don't need to have you validate what I've done. As for me going to gym to knock out an MMA fighter, just to prove a point to you? Really? Me going to a MMA gym for the purpose of knocking someone out simply because you don't think Hung Ga doesn't stands a chance against MMA? That's the weakest thing I've ever heard. Do you think I'm 12 years old or something. Damn dude. Your nonsense knows no limit.

You are now on my permanent ignore list. Right up there with the things in life that are insignificant and meaningless. I swear stupid people.

 

[Hanzou]

Where did I say i took down an MMA fighter?
From post #89
"It's doesn't say anything about the system and a lot about Sherif Bey. I have no where near 30 years of experience, and I have sparred against an Amateur MMA fighter and I wasn't rattled nor was I knocked out. So what does that say about Hung Ga? That I didn't get knocked out?"

I was combining your past exploits and claims with the ones you made in this thread. You've claimed in the last that you can stop MMA and Bjj takedowns quite easily, and you've claimed that MMA fighters strike incorrectly. You've even claimed that you're quite adept at breaking people's knees with your kicks. I don't recall every claim you've made on this forum, but I'm fairly positive that if you're half as proficient as you claim to be, taking down a MMA hobbyist shouldn't be an issue.

As for evidence. I don't need to have you validate what I've done. As for me going to gym to knock out an MMA fighter, just to prove a point to you? Really? Me going to a MMA gym for the purpose of knocking someone out simply because you don't think Hung Ga doesn't stands a chance against MMA?

Well actually it would be to elevate Kung fu as a whole and make yourself a lot of money. Again, if you're as good as you say you are, pulling that off shouldn't be a problem for you. A traditional CMA guy handily beating a MMA fighter or a Bjj brown or black belt using traditional techniques would be pretty big stuff.

Again, you've always seemed rather confident in your skill set. Why waste your time bragging about them on here? Why not put them to the test and get some substantial gains from it?

Clearly I would enjoy watching the fight, but so would millions of other people, provided you win of course. If you ended up losing (badly) you'd just be another Kung Fu guy added to the pile.

 

[drop bear]

In this case the source is the person who was an active participant in the sparring.

Not really. You sparred some mma guy isn't really very good in terms of supporting an argument.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I thought even anecdotes were to have a source. That is what makes them not stories.

Every story has a source. The point I made previously about this is that we have to evaluate the source. If it's someone who commonly makes unsupported claims, the anecdotal evidence carries less weight. If it is someone (like JGW) who doesn't typically make unsupported claims and who we have seen videos of him doing something similar to what he describes (sparring with someone outside his style), then it carries more weight. If we have video to complement the anecdote (as we do for Hanzou's), then even better.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not really. You sparred some mma guy isn't really very good in terms of supporting an argument.

Actually, it's a reasonable counter argument to a single-fight statistic. Hanzou pointed to a single instance and asked what that said about the art. JGW responded, essentially saying what I heard as "Not much, no more than me doing well against an MMA fighter does. It says more about the person in the fight." Not really an outrageous claim, rather pointing out that using a single individual isn't a good way to judge an art. It seems clear both are making a valid point.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Not really. You sparred some mma guy isn't really very good in terms of supporting an argument.

why not? Bey sparred some mma guy? Why does his experience of who he spars counts but the experience of who I spar doesn't?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Actually, it's a reasonable counter argument to a single-fight statistic. Hanzou pointed to a single instance and asked what that said about the art. JGW responded, essentially saying what I heard as "Not much, no more than me doing well against an MMA fighter does. It says more about the person in the fight." Not really an outrageous claim, rather pointing out that using a single individual isn't a good way to judge an art. It seems clear both are making a valid point.

Every system has some guy with "30 years of experience" who hasn't learned how to apply his techniques in free sparring against another style. This is a Jow Ga guy who claims 30 years of martial arts experience. If we were to base the effectiveness of Jow Ga on his performance then my sparring videos would look like this. For me personally, I would have been more than happy to unleashed a wide range of Jow Ga techniques on this guy just for being a flashy sparring opponent.

In Jow Ga these are considered basic Jow Ga punches. These are the punches people learn as beginners yet we didn't see any of these punches in his sparring (this is the same guy in the red)

The only thing his video showed was that he didn't use his Jow Ga and that the other guy trains to actually use his techniques during free sparring. We can assume the Jow Ga guy doesn't train using Jow Ga against other systems due to the lack of techniques that were used. But even that doesn't say much about the system itself. It only says something about the fighter.

 

[Hanzou]

Actually, it's a reasonable counter argument to a single-fight statistic. Hanzou pointed to a single instance and asked what that said about the art. JGW responded, essentially saying what I heard as "Not much, no more than me doing well against an MMA fighter does. It says more about the person in the fight." Not really an outrageous claim, rather pointing out that using a single individual isn't a good way to judge an art. It seems clear both are making a valid point.

Well the difference is that up until that point Bey was considered an authority on Hung Gar in the US, also we simply don't have a lot of examples of Hung Gar exponents participating in fights. It would be no different if Rickson Gracie got whopped on in a challenge match in the early 90s, or if Royce got beat down in the first match of the first UFC and none of his brothers or anyone else stepped up to counter that rather public defeat. Those losses would paint their style in a rather unfavorable light, just like what happened with Bey and Hung Gar.

It doesn't help that Bey's video also supports a general narrative, so while it is a single video, that video is part of a pattern of various confrontations that has been occurring for the better part of two decades.

What happened to Bey is akin to what would happen if some random clown came in off the street and beat down Shawn Williams, a prominent black belt under Renzo Gracie, or Rener Gracie. Again, Bey has been prominent in NYC martial arts and Kung Fu circles for decades, and he has made a career out of supposedly making HG a practical form of fighting that can stand up to MMA. Those claims were obliterated by that video, because the MMA guy he fought against was an amateur fighter at best, and Bey is considered a master (if not grandmaster) of his style.

As for JGW, we don't even know if JGW is telling us the truth. That's the problem with his story, and it's a problem that he could fix rather easily.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Well the difference is that up until that point Bey was considered an authority on Hung Gar in the US, also we simply don't have a lot of examples of Hung Gar exponents participating in fights. It would be no different if Rickson Gracie got whopped on in a challenge match in the early 90s, or if Royce got beat down in the first match of the first UFC and none of his brothers or anyone else stepped up to counter that rather public defeat. Those losses would paint their style in a rather unfavorable light, just like what happened with Bey and Hung Gar.

It doesn't help that Bey's video also supports a general narrative, so while it is a single video, that video is part of a pattern of various confrontations that has been occurring for the better part of two decades.

What happened to Bey is akin to what would happen if some random clown came in off the street and beat down Shawn Williams, a prominent black belt under Renzo Gracie, or Rener Gracie. Again, Bey has been prominent in NYC martial arts and Kung Fu circles for decades, and he has made a career out of supposedly making HG a practical form of fighting that can stand up to MMA. Those claims were obliterated by that video, because the MMA guy he fought against was an amateur fighter at best, and Bey is considered a master (if not grandmaster) of his style.

As for JGW, we don't even know if JGW is telling us the truth. That's the problem with his story, and it's a problem that he could fix rather easily.

As I said, I think you have a valid point. The bigger issue is that there's not sufficient evidence of Hung Gar being used to be able to say Bey's performance isn't representative. If a Gracie black belt gets his *** handed to him in competition and looks weak in the process, we have other examples to see that this is not representative of GJJ, nor of BJJ in general. Unfortunately, we don't have sufficient evidence in either direction on Hung Gar to determine if it's a weakness in the system or not. It may well be.

As for JGW's assertion, it's in line with what we've seen in some of his videos. He didn't claim even to have won against the MMA guy (though he may have), just that he didn't get KO'd and I think he said he didn't get taken down, though I may be misremembering that part. That's a reasonable claim that seems in line with the level of control he shows in his videos.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The bigger issue is that there's not sufficient evidence of Hung Gar being used to be able to say Bey's performance isn't representative

There's enough you tube video evidence of Hung Ga practitioners sparring to show that Bey's performance isn't the representative of Hung Ga. I'll put this way, we don't need to find an expert Hung Ga Sifu to show more Hung Ga skill than Bey showed in that match

If you know what Hung Ga is supposed to look like when fighting then you'll know if that person is representative of Hung Ga win or lose. Hung Ga always looks like Hung Ga no matter what system it's fighting against. The one thing that I promised myself was that I will never claim that I represent Jow Ga, then get in the ring and lose doing basic kick boxing. If I lose then I'm going to lose while doing Jow Ga and while representing Jow Ga to the best of my ability. I would never do what Bey did. This is even more so for me now as the fight instructor at the school. I don't only have to show the techniques, I have to get it right.

just that he didn't get KO'd and I think he said he didn't get taken down, though I may be misremembering that part

There's an update to this one. I haven't been KO'd yet that's priority #1 lol. I did say that I haven't been taken down yet, but a few months ago that kind of changed. I was working with the other instructor and helping him with his sparring and he got me with a sweep. I'm not sure how to classify that since it was a light sparring situation where I was giving him opportunities to do techniques, but none the less that sweep got me and he did it with perfect timing for a close range sweep. I didn't fly up in the air (I'm so glad of that), but I do remember my feet coming together and then it went blank and the next thing I was doing was laying on ground with my fists clinched screaming "Noooooooo." lol.

If we count practice then that would be my first take down and it happened with my own favorite technique.
So if I count takedowns in practice then the correct statement will have to be "I have never been taken down outside of school?" lol.

I'm actually proud that he was able to do it, because it's a good reflection on my ability to train him, and a good reflection on his ability to train the technique until he can actually use it. As a result of that one day, I'm more than alert not to give him those opportunities again. On the other hand there's a female student I need to watch out for. She'll probably be the next one to get me. I think she's already swept the other instructor twice and since then she's been really trying to make me victim #2. I hope she succeeds.

As for people outside of the school.. I'm going to do my best to keep them at a 0% success rate. lol

 

[drop bear]

why not? Bey sparred some mma guy? Why does his experience of who he spars counts but the experience of who I spar doesn't?

We can challenge him to come up with evidence. We can legitimately suggest that a one off has its limitations.

But a story off gets pretty fanciful. I mean we could under this system of discussion come up with anything.

I beat up ten hung gar guys this morning. And six bjjers made one cry. So therefore my argument is valid.

This is the foundation of why crap martial arts is crap. Because someone who is doing the real thing can't compete with someone who has a good sales pitch.

 

[JowGaWolf]

We can challenge him to come up with evidence. We can legitimately suggest that a one off has its limitations.

Why would you need to challenge someone to come up with evidence? No one challenge me to come up with evidence to prove that the Muay Thai practitioner that I sparred with was actually my brother. No one here challenged me to come up with evidence that I'm the fight instructor at my school. No one here challenged me to come up with evidence that I practice legitimate Jow Ga kung fu. No one has challenged me about my experience in fighting. No one has challenged me about if I ever did sparring with someone from Sanda or Taekwondo. What's bigger than that is that no one has challenged me on the question if I can actually fight or not.

So out of all the things in which would have verified me being full of crap I haven't been challenged on. In addition I've even shown videos of me doing bad in sparring and having bad days where the other instructor got the best of me. But when I say that I sparred with an amateur MMA fighter and I didn't get knocked out, my statements all of a sudden becomes unbelievable and comparable " I beat up ten hung gar guys this morning and six bjjer made one cry."

If you can't match what I say with what I've shown and determine if I'm telling a tall tale then I can't help you. That's a person problem. If you doubt my skills then that's cool too because I can't help you there unless you spar with me then you'll see first hand.

This is the foundation of why crap martial arts is crap. Because someone who is doing the real thing can't compete with someone who has a good sales pitch.

I don't even know what this means. People who do the real thing don't bother with "show me evidence" because they have enough fight experience to and knowledge, to where they can watch a person sparring and get a good idea what's that person is capable of and what they definitely aren't capable of.

 

[drop bear]

Why would you need to challenge someone to come up with evidence? No one challenge me to come up with evidence to prove that the Muay Thai practitioner that I sparred with was actually my brother. No one here challenged me to come up with evidence that I'm the fight instructor at my school. No one here challenged me to come up with evidence that I practice legitimate Jow Ga kung fu. No one has challenged me about my experience in fighting. No one has challenged me about if I ever did sparring with someone from Sanda or Taekwondo. What's bigger than that is that no one has challenged me on the question if I can actually fight or not.

So out of all the things in which would have verified me being full of crap I haven't been challenged on. In addition I've even shown videos of me doing bad in sparring and having bad days where the other instructor got the best of me. But when I say that I sparred with an amateur MMA fighter and I didn't get knocked out, my statements all of a sudden becomes unbelievable and comparable " I beat up ten hung gar guys this morning and six bjjer made one cry."

If you can't match what I say with what I've shown and determine if I'm telling a tall tale then I can't help you. That's a person problem. If you doubt my skills then that's cool too because I can't help you there unless you spar with me then you'll see first hand.

I don't even know what this means. People who do the real thing don't bother with "show me evidence" because they have enough fight experience to and knowledge, to where they can watch a person sparring and get a good idea what's that person is capable of and what they definitely aren't capable of.

It can become unbelievable any time I want. What am i supposed to believe without evidence?

That is the issue. You leave it in my hands. Or worse the group just decides based on some sort of popularity contest. Or internal script.

So my statement of fighting 10 hung gar people is as valid as yours. True or not. And that is the basic problem.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It can become unbelievable any time I want. What am i supposed to believe without evidence?

That is the issue. You leave it in my hands. Or worse the group just decides based on some sort of popularity contest. Or internal script.

So my statement of fighting 10 hung gar people is as valid as yours. True or not. And that is the basic problem.

One claim is consistent with past evidence. The other isn't.

 

[Hanzou]

One claim is consistent with past evidence. The other isn't.

It should be noted that sparring and training with your classmates (JGW) isn't the same as fighting someone trying to take your head off (Bey vs MMA).

 

[drop bear]

One claim is consistent with past evidence. The other isn't.

So one fits your internal script?

Thats pretty dodgy.