Become a fighting machine

[Gerry Seymour]

What change of mental state? I am not sure having the sucker punched in the street mental state and the eaten an uppercut in the gym mental state as two separate entities is at all helpful. Why would you bother?

I'm not making it so - it simply is so. It's psychology (my background). Someone in a contest is expecting an attack, so even a surprise there isn't entirely unexpected. Someone walking down the street and getting clocked is in a different mental state - different areas of the brain doing different things. A much bigger difference between anticipated outcome and actual outcome in the moment.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You have two responses to counter ether a street style attack or a trained attack. That is a lot to process in the few seconds an attack will take. That is complicated.

You're presuming the defender has to stop and select between them. They are two different attacks, so no selection needed. The type of attack flows into the response. Do you find it difficult to select the right response to a jab to the face, versus a punch to the abdomen? Of course not - they are two different attacks.

I don't want sd to be complex. It does that to itself. And generally focused on areas that could be time spent to better use.

That's your perception based upon your strawman concept of what you think SD training is. You keep presenting all these "you do this" situations, and nearly none of them bear any relationship to my training. Yet you keep pointing back at them to show how complicated things are. I agree that what you THINK we do is pretty complicated.

I do speak of mma as a separate entity. Because if you don,t understand where it differs from other systems you dont understand the arguments you should be making.

I do understand how it differs. And, other than the fact that its proponents are constantly working against different styles, it doesn't do that much different than any other competition style. The main benefits it has are that it deals with opponents from many different styles, it draws from different styles so isn't linked to a single set of techniques, and most of the proponents train at high intensity more often (this latter being true for folks who compete in other areas, as well, of course).

A lot of times you have pretty much suggested it is bjj with punching. It isn't. Understanding how mma uses unique concepts will help you understand how those concept fit into self defence.

I've suggested no such thing. I use BJJ as a reference point most often when talking about MMA because it's clearly present and something I have a reasonable understanding of. It's also something that dominated MMA at one point, so is something MMA fighters must defend against.

Or to put it another way. Almost nobody does flying triangles or butt flops or a lot of other things that just incorrectly get atributed to mma.

I'm not sure what the "butt flop" is, but I accept that the flying triangle isn't common. I can't recall the last time I saw one when perusing footage of MMA matches. My point in mentioning it was that I would expect many MMA competitors would train on how to avoid/defend it, because it has been used successfully, not that many would be training to actually use it. That may be a misperception, but not one that can be corrected by a single person's experience.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is a discussion on concepts.

It is not so much wrong as a long way to go to gain a skill. Especially as a fighting machine in the case of this thread.

I've addressed this in other threads (or was it this one) with Steve, I think. There are many ways of preparing for physical defense. MMA is certainly one, but there are a lot of people who aren't interested in that one. My program is one of the other ways. I'm not sure it's all that much longer as a path. I teach some very simple and direct pieces right up front, then just keep adding to build skill and add options. I accommodate a wider range of people (and commitment levels) so I move more gradually.

And i thought you couldn't spar because of the danger. How to people bounce using those techniques?

How many times have I actually replied to you that we DO spar. We DO spar with resistance. We do striking sparring and randori (like rolling in BJJ), and even combined sparring/randori. There are some techniques we don't use in sparring/randori because they aren't safe with full resistance, so we leave them out. Those who bounce use what's appropriate to the situation, just like we would in self-defense. Just like the LEO's do.

It is not personal it is basically a technical discussion.

You have to understand why something doesn't work in the ring. Not the illegal stuff. But the overlap. Generally there is a simple mechanical reason.

That's not the only reason. There are a great many things that will work quite well against someone who doesn't understand grappling very well, which will fail spectacularly when used against someone who grapples. An "okay" striker (reasonable power, form protects hands, speed is decent) will often be sufficient on the street, but will be easily outclassed by a faster or more powerful striker (who has trained harder) in competition.

You appear to want SD-oriented training to be awful. I say that because you keep presenting false dichotomies and strawmen. When I tell you we do things you say SD systems don't do, you keep coming back and ignoring that (reference your recent comments about not sparring, not training with resistance, etc.). You seem to be (and I'm using that specific phrase, because if that's not what you intend to be doing, I'd like you to be aware of my perception) trying really hard to prove something about the efficacy of MMA. As I've said to you and others, there's little argument to be made that MMA preparation doubles as SD preparation. It could be taken a step further to be more prepared for the street, but so could anything else, so that's not a mark against it. But MMA isn't for everyone, and other approaches have reasonable evidence that they are effective. There's no need to win here.

 

[Kickboxer101]

I've addressed this in other threads (or was it this one) with Steve, I think. There are many ways of preparing for physical defense. MMA is certainly one, but there are a lot of people who aren't interested in that one. My program is one of the other ways. I'm not sure it's all that much longer as a path. I teach some very simple and direct pieces right up front, then just keep adding to build skill and add options. I accommodate a wider range of people (and commitment levels) so I move more gradually.


How many times have I actually replied to you that we DO spar. We DO spar with resistance. We do striking sparring and randori (like rolling in BJJ), and even combined sparring/randori. There are some techniques we don't use in sparring/randori because they aren't safe with full resistance, so we leave them out. Those who bounce use what's appropriate to the situation, just like we would in self-defense. Just like the LEO's do.


That's not the only reason. There are a great many things that will work quite well against someone who doesn't understand grappling very well, which will fail spectacularly when used against someone who grapples. An "okay" striker (reasonable power, form protects hands, speed is decent) will often be sufficient on the street, but will be easily outclassed by a faster or more powerful striker (who has trained harder) in competition.

You appear to want SD-oriented training to be awful. I say that because you keep presenting false dichotomies and strawmen. When I tell you we do things you say SD systems don't do, you keep coming back and ignoring that (reference your recent comments about not sparring, not training with resistance, etc.). You seem to be (and I'm using that specific phrase, because if that's not what you intend to be doing, I'd like you to be aware of my perception) trying really hard to prove something about the efficacy of MMA. As I've said to you and others, there's little argument to be made that MMA preparation doubles as SD preparation. It could be taken a step further to be more prepared for the street, but so could anything else, so that's not a mark against it. But MMA isn't for everyone, and other approaches have reasonable evidence that they are effective. There's no need to win here.

Mma is effective and I wouldn't want to fight Anderson silva in a back alley.but that doesn't mean it's the best thing ever. It's got it's strengths and its weaknesses anyone saying it doesn't have weaknesses is simply ignorant. Every style has a weakness but it doesn't make it wrong. There's always more than route to take to get to a certain destination. Same with martial arts there's many ways to be able to defend yourself no better or worse just your preference and what's the best and available for you simple as that.

 

[drop bear]

How many times have I actually replied to you that we DO spar. We DO spar with resistance. We do striking sparring and randori (like rolling in BJJ), and even combined sparring/randori. There are some techniques we don't use in sparring/randori because they aren't safe with full resistance, so we leave them out. Those who bounce use what's appropriate to the situation, just like we would in self-defense. Just like the LEO's do.

Seeing that would help.

 

[drop bear]

Mma is effective and I wouldn't want to fight Anderson silva in a back alley.but that doesn't mean it's the best thing ever. It's got it's strengths and its weaknesses anyone saying it doesn't have weaknesses is simply ignorant. Every style has a weakness but it doesn't make it wrong. There's always more than route to take to get to a certain destination. Same with martial arts there's many ways to be able to defend yourself no better or worse just your preference and what's the best and available for you simple as that.

Nobody believes that. Look at the thread on that Qi fight. All the people who dismissed it.

Edit.

Oh. One if them was you.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not making it so - it simply is so. It's psychology (my background). Someone in a contest is expecting an attack, so even a surprise there isn't entirely unexpected. Someone walking down the street and getting clocked is in a different mental state - different areas of the brain doing different things. A much bigger difference between anticipated outcome and actual outcome in the moment.

I really don't think it is as big a difference as you make out. From punching dudes. (my background)You switch mentally pretty quickly. You absolutely can be good to go from inbetween the first shot to the next.

Competition is a pretty intense mental ride.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Seeing that would help.

Videoing that is in my plans. I have a very small program, and none of my students are highly experienced in the art, so I don't get to run those sorts of exercises a lot yet, and capturing video takes more of my time. Someday.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I really don't think it is as big a difference as you make out. From punching dudes. (my background)You switch mentally pretty quickly. You absolutely can be good to go from inbetween the first shot to the next.

Competition is a pretty intense mental ride.

Competition is, indeed an intense ride. That's the point. When you walk into the ring (or whatever it is in a given competition), you are on that ride. Walking down the street carrying your coffee, you're not. That's the difference I'm talking about.

I do think those who compete - or at least those who spar hard - are better equipped to make that sudden shift. When they are surprised, it's as likely to be a reaction of "what the hell - when did I step into that ring??", switching on the competition mode, which serves nicely to get defenses up and start a reaction while your brain gets back on track.

 

[drop bear]

Competition is, indeed an intense ride. That's the point. When you walk into the ring (or whatever it is in a given competition), you are on that ride. Walking down the street carrying your coffee, you're not. That's the difference I'm talking about.

I do think those who compete - or at least those who spar hard - are better equipped to make that sudden shift. When they are surprised, it's as likely to be a reaction of "what the hell - when did I step into that ring??", switching on the competition mode, which serves nicely to get defenses up and start a reaction while your brain gets back on track.

A lot of sports people have that quick shift. Go punch a football player and see how long it takes the whole team to react. They go straight into sports mode.

Otherwise I become sceptical when people discuss this extra mental state in self defence. As I think a lot of it is fear marketing. Which from a psychological point of view isnt very helpfull.

 

[drop bear]

That's not the only reason. There are a great many things that will work quite well against someone who doesn't understand grappling very well, which will fail spectacularly when used against someone who grapples. An "okay" striker (reasonable power, form protects hands, speed is decent) will often be sufficient on the street, but will be easily outclassed by a faster or more powerful striker (who has trained harder) in competition.

You appear to want SD-oriented training to be awful. I say that because you keep presenting false dichotomies and strawmen. When I tell you we do things you say SD systems don't do, you keep coming back and ignoring that (reference your recent comments about not sparring, not training with resistance, etc.). You seem to be (and I'm using that specific phrase, because if that's not what you intend to be doing, I'd like you to be aware of my perception) trying really hard to prove something about the efficacy of MMA. As I've said to you and others, there's little argument to be made that MMA preparation doubles as SD preparation. It could be taken a step further to be more prepared for the street, but so could anything else, so that's not a mark against it. But MMA isn't for everyone, and other approaches have reasonable evidence that they are effective. There's no need to win here.

There is a false dichotomy regarding self defence training. Especially compared to ring training.

On the one hand people treat self defence as this life or death scenario where one miss step leaves you crippled raped or killed.

And then half *** the training. Comparatively it is awful. I wouldnt put a one day a week training fat grampar in a ring fight. But he can train for self defence no dramas.

Now self defence should be open to everyone. But you are going to get the results comparative to the work you put in.

So when people say life or death fight. I treat that as ring training plus extra. Because I would not put a person in a life or death fight unless they have every possible chance.

(How to become a fighting machine)

Self defence is essentially martial arts lite. Enough skills to mabye get yourself out of danger in a manner that everyone can access. Stop that sloppy punch. But you pay for that in effectiveness.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A lot of sports people have that quick shift. Go punch a football player and see how long it takes the whole team to react. They go straight into sports mode.

Otherwise I become sceptical when people discuss this extra mental state in self defence. As I think a lot of it is fear marketing. Which from a psychological point of view isnt very helpfull.

Actually, it's just psychology. Remember that that's my background.

I think you're right about pretty much any contact sport that rewards aggression. Partly, that's because it attracts a certain type of person. Studies showed that some people are predisposed to what's called an "orientation response" (turning toward a source) when surprised or startled, while others are more prone to flinching away. The former tend to be less averse to risk, so more likely to participate in MMA, football (both kinds, after a point), etc. I may be wrong, but I seem to recall they also tended to be more competitive. Put those traits together, and you get someone whose natural response adapts well to that transition.

 

[drop bear]

Actually, it's just psychology. Remember that that's my background.

I think you're right about pretty much any contact sport that rewards aggression. Partly, that's because it attracts a certain type of person. Studies showed that some people are predisposed to what's called an "orientation response" (turning toward a source) when surprised or startled, while others are more prone to flinching away. The former tend to be less averse to risk, so more likely to participate in MMA, football (both kinds, after a point), etc. I may be wrong, but I seem to recall they also tended to be more competitive. Put those traits together, and you get someone whose natural response adapts well to that transition.

I dont know if combat sports attracts a certain type of person. Football I can see. Not martial arts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is a false dichotomy regarding self defence training. Especially compared to ring training.

On the one hand people treat self defence as this life or death scenario where one miss step leaves you crippled raped or killed.

And then half *** the training. Comparatively it is awful. I wouldnt put a one day a week training fat grampar in a ring fight. But he can train for self defence no dramas.

Now self defence should be open to everyone. But you are going to get the results comparative to the work you put in.

So when people say life or death fight. I treat that as ring training plus extra. Because I would not put a person in a life or death fight unless they have every possible chance.

(How to become a fighting machine)

Self defence is essentially martial arts lite. Enough skills to mabye get yourself out of danger in a manner that everyone can access. Stop that sloppy punch. But you pay for that in effectiveness.

Self defense isn't "martial arts lite" - it's something people do when they are attacked. Competition styles (those like MMA that are reasonably intense) make good preparation for self-defense. There are other methods that work, as well.

You seem to be stuck in a loop on this. Let's move along.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I dont know if combat sports attracts a certain type of person. Football I can see. Not martial arts.

You don't think it takes a certain kind of person to want to get into a cage and fight someone who's trying to knock them out?

 

[drop bear]

I do understand how it differs. And, other than the fact that its proponents are constantly working against different styles, it doesn't do that much different than any other competition style. The main benefits it has are that it deals with opponents from many different styles, it draws from different styles so isn't linked to a single set of techniques, and most of the proponents train at high intensity more often (this latter being true for folks who compete in other areas, as well, of course).

By the way. I really think you dont here. The concepts are much more in line with mainstream self defence ideas. Than dedicated sports ideas.

 

[drop bear]

You don't think it takes a certain kind of person to want to get into a cage and fight someone who's trying to knock them out?

Do you think it takes a certain kind of person to defend a street assault?

 

[drop bear]

Self defense isn't "martial arts lite" - it's something people do when they are attacked. Competition styles (those like MMA that are reasonably intense) make good preparation for self-defense. There are other methods that work, as well.

You seem to be stuck in a loop on this. Let's move along.

You cant dissagree and then move along.

Seriously who does that.

And self defence training is martial arts lite.

 

[Kickboxer101]

Nobody believes that. Look at the thread on that Qi fight. All the people who dismissed it.

Edit.

Oh. One if them was you.

Umm yeah because that was proven in that video that that guy was a fraud so your telling me you believe in just touching a guy and they fall to the floor or are you just trying to cause an argument

 

[Kickboxer101]

Self defense isn't "martial arts lite" - it's something people do when they are attacked. Competition styles (those like MMA that are reasonably intense) make good preparation for self-defense. There are other methods that work, as well.

You seem to be stuck in a loop on this. Let's move along.

I'm very confused what this argument is even about, I'd understand if you said mma doesn't work but you've said plenty of times it does so I don't see what drop bears arguing with you about