Bear Hugs - Practical or Impractical

[Disco]

I know the Kenpo people had something similar in discussion a while back. But I'm looking for an overall opinion related to training defense against a rear bear hug. I have trained in the what I like to call "static" defense against the BH. Everything taught works. The problem arises from the practical aspect of someone putting you in a static bear hug. By static I mean you have ample time to shift, lower, etc. Everytime I have witnessed a bear hug done in aggression, and I can count the number of times on half a hand, it was never static. The person being bear hugged was picked up immediately and dumped hard. The fight was over at that point. There was no time to defend and no defense that I could/can think of for that situation. Kind of made all the training in BH defense a moot point.

Question is, what if any is the practical concept of still teaching people the static application defenses to a bear hug? Personally, I can't see any.......

 

[TigerWoman]

On a static bear hug. I guess we are trained in TKD to react fast to any type of bear hug. Front or back. We have four types of defenses if your arms are pinned. If the attacker is in back and my feet on on the ground, I would kick to to groin and back head butt. If I'm in the air, I could still head butt....and kick back, before getting supposedly thrown to the ground. And if i subsequently get my arms free, too, I've got all my tools.
Even after landing on the ground there are defenses...But, there's alot I could do before. I'm not going to just not do anything. The purpose of training is to react fast though. Any defense has to be done quickly and precisely. It all comes from training, doing it over and over as real as you can without damaging your partner. So not too practical for the attacker, to attack with a bear hug someone already trained in defense. Key word is trained.

 

[Gary Crawford]

I think Brazilian Jujitsu probably has a defense that would really work.

 

[TigerWoman]

I think Brazilian Jujitsu probably has a defense that would really work.

But you didn't tell us HOW it would work so how can we tell if Jujitsu has a defense that would "really" work? I know my method would work, but we all are open to new approaches. But a statement proves nothing. Respectfully, Tigerwoman

 

[MisterMike]

I'd say you still have half a second or so to do something before you hit the ground. Off the ground or not, there is still plenty you can do.

It's almost like "Why train for club attacks if someone is just going to club you from behind anyways?"

The bear hug is still there, it just turned into a followup throw. I'd suggest training for the what-if's as well.

 

[Gary Crawford]

TigerWoman,What I mean is,that in a situation when someone bearhugs you and thows you to the ground,groundfighting skills must come into play,there is no specific technique there.The fact that many, if not most real fights go to the ground is why it's a good idea to be very familiar with several ground fighting techniques.

 

[bluenosekenpo]

if i 'm not mistaken, it really comes down to reaction time and whether he's trying to pick you up or drag you down with the bearhug. here's a suggestion, go to a grappling class, and get one of those guys to put you on the ground using a bearhug. it's an eye opener because if you don't react immediatly, you will become a human piledriver, and we haven't even talked about a suplez(not sure about the spelling), which is the bearhug driving you backwards onto your head. to paraphrase larry tatum, if you allow someone to set and lock a bearhug, you are in serious trouble.

i completely agree with disco, the bh can be deadly. the only option is to react quickly and do something,anything and fight for your life. that's pretty lame as far as techs go, but that's reality. regards :asian:

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Front bear hug with the arms pinned. we use pushing on the attackers hips as you step back to created a good base. Follow with a knee. The hands placed on the hips could attack the groin. I believe BJJ uses something similar to this.

 

[MA-Caver]

Depending upon your present awareness level a (rear) Bear-hug can be a nasty thing to happen.
As for myself, it depends if I"m being aware of nothing, everything or something. I may or may not be caught off guard depending upon where I'm at.
I've learned several and are learning several more counters to get out of bear-hugs. I'm willing to take the guy down to the ground myself by locking my feet behind his knees (raising my legs up to do so thus giving him more weight to support and throwing him off balance), and then thrusting my own body weight backwards forcing him to go down with me on top of him. This isn't 100% because the guy might roll either way at the last second... but at that point I"m able to thrust one of my legs out enough to slow the fall and at least I do not hit the ground hard.
But I've been grabbed from behind by a (college) linebacker (for fun...at least it was for him) and was picked up and was going to be carried through the wall... feets don't fail me now...

 

[Disco]

MisterMike feels there is enough time to do something. All I can suggest is that you have it done to you. If your unprepared you'll be shocked. Even if your prepared, you know what your training partner is going to do to you, it will still be an eye opener if it's done full bore.

The concept of this thread is to see if it's really worth the time and effort to teach techniques that in reality only work in a controlled setting.

 

[TigerWoman]

TigerWoman,What I mean is,that in a situation when someone bearhugs you and thows you to the ground,groundfighting skills must come into play,there is no specific technique there.The fact that many, if not most real fights go to the ground is why it's a good idea to be very familiar with several ground fighting techniques.

I don't understand "when someone bearhugs you and throws you to the ground, groundfighting skills must come into play". When someone bearhugs me, I have a second or two to do some major damage that will avoid me being thrown too the ground." In the event, I am thrown to the ground without me crunching his groin, headbutting him, or getting free and doing more damage, and he gets past me, yeah, I would have to use groundfighting techniques but there is no "MUST" since it doesn't have to happen IMO unless you are weak at above ground self defense and at striking.

 

[Disco]

TigerWoman, with all due respect. You have not been put into the bear hug I am referencing. You are being put into the "static" version of the bear hug. You are being allowed an ample amount of time to engage a technique. As for the ground fighting applications, if you get slammed into the ground - very, very good chance you will be knocked out or at the least a broken collar bone.

My main point here is that there are some attacks that there are just no defense for. I think this is one of those attacks. Therefor, why spend the time training for something that won't happen they way they are being trained to deal with it.

But now if someone out there has found a viable technique..... I'm all ears.

 

[Flatlander]

Are we assuming your arms locked in the bear hug, or free? Assuming that the agressor has the strength to quickly pick you up, and the arms are locked in, and the agressor is already picking you up to throw you, I see only 2 options, neither is good. Go for the "junk", and hope that a - you can, and b - it causes him to let go. Or, thrash violently like you're having a seizure and hope that opens something up, or at least poses a control challenge. Neither is pretty.

Is it worth it to train? Yes. You'll react more instinctively should this happen to you. You'll remember what it's like to be grabbed. It lessens the chance of you panicking, and keeping your head together.

Arms out of the bear hug opens many other possibilities.

 

[kenpo_cory]

Also in a bear hug with your arms pinned, the groin is usually pretty easy to reach back and (insert attack here)

 

[Flatlander]

Yes, I agree that if you insert a tack there that may be effective!

(I'm sorry guys, I had to.):rofl:

 

[Zoran]

First off, there are some factors on Real World when it comes to a rear bear hug, pinned or not.

1. You are caught by surprise, otherwise there would be no rear bear hug, and unless you train to react when unprepared for any type of attack, there will be a delay to your reaction.
2. The person grabbing you is usually much bigger and stronger. Anybody who tells you that doesn't make a difference is full of it.
3. When someone does grab you, they are planning to do something besides just hold you there (unless it's an idiot). This could be a tackle, pick you up and thow you, or pin you against something (car, wall etc.)

Working static techs is only a one part of your training. You should train for all possibilities. That includes working the what ifs and the spontaneous phases. Don't be fooled in believing you have a second or two. That measurement of time in a fight is an eternity. Of course, if you wish to believe that you have all your bases covered...well what ever helps you sleep at night.

 

[Spud]

I agree with Disco and Zoran. The static bear hug is one thing and there is a variety of ways to counter it. But I’m not seeing anyone address the dynamic bear hug takedown. You don’t have a second or two. You opponent will likely be bigger and looking to drop you HARD.

We did some bear hug drills a few weeks ago and nobody could consistently defend from a rear bear hug until a good 10-15 seconds when a groin kick finally connected or they could squirm enough to free an arm to go for eye gouge or groin strike. Head butting wasn’t effective when the attacker had their face pressed into your shoulder blade. Brute strength and conditioning seemed to be the most effective just to allow you to “washing machine” yourself into a better defensive position.

Again, situational awareness and prevention is the key.

Your mileage may vary…

 

[RCastillo]

I know the Kenpo people had something similar in discussion a while back. But I'm looking for an overall opinion related to training defense against a rear bear hug. I have trained in the what I like to call "static" defense against the BH. Everything taught works. The problem arises from the practical aspect of someone putting you in a static bear hug. By static I mean you have ample time to shift, lower, etc. Everytime I have witnessed a bear hug done in aggression, and I can count the number of times on half a hand, it was never static. The person being bear hugged was picked up immediately and dumped hard. The fight was over at that point. There was no time to defend and no defense that I could/can think of for that situation. Kind of made all the training in BH defense a moot point.

Question is, what if any is the practical concept of still teaching people the static application defenses to a bear hug? Personally, I can't see any.......

Great Post!

I do not forcus on a "static" practice if I can help it. I'm always working my people to go on the moment of first sensation. It might sound like my idea is impractical but you've pointed out very well that something bad is gonna happen.

Thanks for your reminder! :asian:

 

[MJS]

Good thread!! Rather than address each post seperate, I'll try to give a general over view.

First off, are we talking about arms free or pinned?? Front or rear?? This of course will make a difference in what you can/can't do. Keep in mind, that there is the during and after phase of the bearhug. During...as you feel the attackers hands around you, you may have time to pin your arms to your side. After...self explanitory....hes already got you. You really dont know what hes gonna do until after he grabs you....he could pick you up, drag you to the ground, etc. One thing that you could do, is drop your weight. It'll make it much harder for him to pick you up. Of course, you have your hit to the back of the hand, headbutt, strikes to the groin, legs, stomps to the foot, etc. I would think though, that the attacker is not gonna stand there...hes going to be doing something.

As for the ground and why you need to fight from there. Well, IMO, everyone should have some knowledge of the ground. In response to TigerWoman...No, you dont need to go to the ground, but keep in mind, that at that time that he grabs you, you are doing grappling, only its standing. By not knowing what to do on the ground, could make a difference in the outcome, so to think that you will never get taken down, is foolish thinking. If you've never trained with a grappler, I highly suggest it. You're eyes will be open as to how quick you will be taken down, regardless of how good you think your stand up skills are. Keep in mind, that a grappler trains for that ALL the time, and the take down happens faster than you think.

I agree with Zorans post. Static techs. are only a part of the process. The techs. should be learned slow and then more resistance and aliveness added. There will be a huge difference in the way you'll have to defend yourself.

Chances are, you will be taken by surprsise. But then again, the same can be said about a shirt grab. Is the attacker going to stand there, or shove you into the wall??? Most likely it'll be the wall!!! Will that text book SD move be able to be done??? Probably not, but thats why its important to train with that aliveness, to get the feeling of what it'll be like. We can sit here all day and try to come uo with the "what ifs", but the fact remains that in the end, it'll come down to spontanious reacting at that given moment.

Mike

 

[MJS]

I don't understand "when someone bearhugs you and throws you to the ground, groundfighting skills must come into play". When someone bearhugs me, I have a second or two to do some major damage that will avoid me being thrown too the ground." In the event, I am thrown to the ground without me crunching his groin, headbutting him, or getting free and doing more damage, and he gets past me, yeah, I would have to use groundfighting techniques but there is no "MUST" since it doesn't have to happen IMO unless you are weak at above ground self defense and at striking.

We need to keep in mind though, that even if we get a shot off, we cant assume that its going to stop the attacker. The idea of the one punch-one kill comes to mind here, and IMO, its a fantasy!!!!

Mike