Bar-Brawl Evangelism. Come Join In...

[SFC JeffJ]

It's like saying since that is US Army isn't prepared because thier force on force training doesn't use live ammunition. In the dojo, we do train for "the street". Can we cover all the bases there? No. Can we plan for every contingency? No. But we can train to the best of our abilites and condition our bodies and minds to be as ready as possible.

Is SD the only reason I train in the martial arts? No, I also train for fitness, the cameraderie, and for the sheer joy of it.

And check your local laws. I think to be truly prepared, you should also carry some sort of weapon. Be it pepper spray, a colapsable baton, a firearm, or what have you. Any of those could greatly increase your survivability in an unexpected altercation. A true SD altercation, not some ridulous fight, which we should be mature enough not to get involved in the first place.

Jeff

 

[MartialIntent]

It's like saying since that is US Army isn't prepared because thier force on force training doesn't use live ammunition. In the dojo, we do train for "the street". Can we cover all the bases there? No. Can we plan for every contingency? No. But we can train to the best of our abilites and condition our bodies and minds to be as ready as possible.

It's not that the army isn't prepared, a more accurate hypothesis might be that those troops who have not seen action in the live theatre before are perhaps not as prepared as those veterans who have. One of the saddest testaments to this is the oft-cited Vietnam war which failed so many young and courageous troops who may have previously had faith in their preparedness.

Is SD the only reason I train in the martial arts? No, I also train for fitness, the cameraderie, and for the sheer joy of it.

Me too. The arts give us so much and have potential to bring us to deeper knowledge of ourselves mentally, spiritually and physically, but where they often fail us is in teaching of SD techniques which are far removed form those envisioned by the founding fathers of the arts. We may well be faster, slicker and safer in our practices compared to those feudal times in centuries long past but we have diluted our SD techniques from the pinnacle of self-protection into nothing more than demonstration.

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

Well, I did cut it. I survived, and so you, could you have done much better, evangelist, what could you learn with your mock staged streetfights that would have given you what it takes, to do better than I, or better than any one, martial artist or otherwise? How could your ideas about training protect you any better than traditional training. I hit hard and so did he, two strong, stubborn and stupid men. You wouldn't have done much better against either of us. Sounds like you're thinking of selling a little snake oil yourself, like the ads in the back of a certain magazine "UNREALISTIC TRAINING WILL GET YOU KILLED! LEARN THE SECRETS OF REAL STREETFIGHTING!" They shout. Been there for years, this is nothing new. Apples and oranges are both nutritious and delicious, I enjoy them too.

lonecoyote, don't for goodness sake be taking this as a tirade at any personal level - that's not my intention. If I have offended you I am sorry.

This is all hypothetical. I'm no charlatan or peddler [how could I be with an idea like this??? Come on! I mean...] and though I'd never be so conceited as to see this concept as visionary, I'm merely using it to illustrate the idea that what's being taught within the sterile confines of our dojo walls cannot by definition be *automatically* transferred into the real world.

I'm not saying your training or my training will not apply to the street, I'm saying that we cannot AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME what works on the mats will work when someone doesn't flash a blade about in your face but rather runs up behind you and plunges it straight into your kidneys.

Again sorry if any of the preceding comment gave you cause for offense.

Respects!

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I'm not saying your training or my training will not apply to the street, I'm saying that we cannot AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME what works on the mats will work when someone doesn't flash a blade about in your face but rather runs up behind you and plunges it straight into your kidneys.

Of course we cannot Automatically Assume what we train in will always work. But could the people who founded our arts do that? I'm sure this debate is centuries old. Sure, they might have gone out and tried thier technique against others, but there was always the spectre of defeat when they did, just like today.

Our SD training nothing more than demonstration? For some it might be. But once again, it's not the technique, the style, or who tought you, it's the person weilding the technique that matters most. In training for SD, you still must have the will and the drive to make the techniques effective. Are there situations that even the best training won't be able to handle? Of course there are, but that does not negate the utility of training.

Jeff

 

[shesulsa]

Street brawling and bar brawling is not the same thing as self-defense.

I train in martial arts to, among other things, learn: 1. How to avoid physical conflict and 2. How to handle conflict should I find myself in it with no way to avoid it.

To me, hitting the street to train is brawling, pure and simple. It means a person has something to prove - a chip on one's shoulder, a neglect of belief in oneself and a lack of value placed in certain training methods.

I don't want to get hit with a soft stick in training because as far as I'm concerned, it could be a knife or broken bottle.

I don't want to get smacked softly because that means I could get smacked firmly.

If I'm going to get attacked IRL, I don't want to test my weapon evasion and see how much I can toy with the attacker, I don't want to duke it out, I don't care to try my jumping back kick ... I WANT IT OVER!!! FAST!!!

If martial artists take that attitude to your bar brawl, people will wind up in the hospital quite possibly to include the artist. And ... all this proves what? And to whom? Why?

If a person wants to brawl to prove something to themselves or other people, that's not martial arts and it's not self-defense. It's brawling - fight club, street fighting ... as another person put it, 'ego'. It's not about self-protection.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

 

[MartialIntent]

Street brawling and bar brawling is not the same thing as self-defense.

Exactly. SD is a set of techniques and theories that we train and practise in the vacuum of our dojos, dojangs, clubs, schools and practise halls. Street fighting on the other hand, is the mortally dangerous situation one is involuntarily *forced* into to keep oneself alive and unharmed.

Only a fool fights voluntarily on the street. I mean, call me naive but I had sort of assumed we'd all be on the same page regarding the fact I'm citing Bar Brawl Evangelism merely as a far-flung hypothetical and purely illustrative situation, right? We *do* all realize that, right?

What we learn from our Martial arts SD may or may not assist us in an attack but really, that's not the heart of my point. That point being that we've come to hail our martial arts SD strategies and skills as the epitome of real world defense. And amazingly all this martial arts SD knowledge has been attained and drawn not from our experience on a feudal battlefield from aeons gone by, not from our action in theatres of war, not from our running battles in riotous crowd control situations, not even from our bar brawling [and I'm speaking generally, as I know many serving forces and LEOs have won their real world experience the hard way ie. iTRW]. Nope, for martial arts lay-fighters, all this wonderfully sanctified martial arts SD experience and knowledge that we hold in such high esteem has been drawn from hammering out techniques against a bag and from compliant ukes and from friendly sparring partners. At no stage during the accumulation of this wealth of "workable" martial SD technique and learning has anyone tried to hurt, maim or kill anyone else. For all that though, we're still adamantly, ahem... more-or-less certain we'll be ok if it happens for real. Hmmmm... Well I don't buy it. But don't sweat it, that's just my opinion and I'm sticking to it

Respects!

 

[SFC JeffJ]

One thing to keep in mind is, that if you don't have confidence in your technique, there is no force in the universe that will make it work in a rl situation.

Jeff

 

[FearlessFreep]

Good point, Jeff

One thng that training in MA and in SD has taught me also is that the unknown is always there. I'm not a lot more aware of what can go wrong. I have confidence in my trainingg and my techniques and believe that, skill-on-skill, I could handle myself if need be. I also know that Murphy's Law and the unforseen show up often enough not to want to press my luck un-neccessarily

 

[MartialIntent]

Thanks to each and every one of you for expressing your opinions - all very interesting reading and I think I can take something away also!

OK, to me, some of you get the idea, some don't wish to question the martial doctrines in which you have been raised, and others simply don't care. Fair enough, all opinions are equally welcome and valid in my house. But rather than having us stuck in the defensive loop, let me provide another alternative... I mean Evangelism I've called it but I'm seeking no converts, I'm just trying to challenge y'all to think seriously about how well you're prepared for the worst.

Righto then, let me suggest another, perhaps more palatable means [though no less outlandish in many a book] of not so much testing your ability in the actual live fight situation but rather of enhancing your *preparedness* for that situation. Ability per se and preparedness: two parts of the same SD coin.

And I'm not referring to SD preparedness in the manner of keeping your eyes and ears open and avoiding a confrontation, I'm referring instead to how you physically react to changes in bodily chemistry and physiology when suddenly thrust into a life-and-death defensive situation - because make no bones, when you're attacked with a blade [for example] there's no time to pigeonhole what's happening to you as either a mortal or non-mortal threat - all sudden attacks are instinctively life-and-death situations.

My suggestion then would be a twofold strategy of firstly utilizing and focussing on the experience you have already and secondly building upon it.

So how's that done? And what "experience" am I talking about? Well, who has ever suddenly skidded their car on ice or been in a serious auto accident? Who has ever fallen downstairs? Who has ever gotten their head stuck between the bars of a fence as a kid? Badly cut themselves on a kitchen knife or broken a major bone maybe? I'm talking specifically about those situations not where there are great amounts of assistance and you can wail and faint hopelessly, but rather those when you've instantly got to cope yourself.

As an illustration, I recall two major incidents. Firstly having just received my driver's licence, I took my dad's car one night without his consent and rolled it onto it's roof in a field and secondly in one of my first jobs when hurriedly finishing a client's artwork, I removed the tip of my finger and half of my fingernail with a commercial guillotine.

I'm certain you recall your own similar and worse situations where panic is utterly inappropriate and you've got to cope because you may be your only source of help.

I'm certain if you've ever encountered any of these scenarios you *WILL* have clear recall and more importantly, your instantaneous reactions to them will have been imprinted into your psyche. I believe this process is by design and not by accident. I believe our subconscious "locks down" the recall of our physical reactions to these incidents in our lives so clearly in order for us to be able to draw upon them as subsequently required.

Now, as odd as it initially sounds, I believe focussing upon how we *immediately* reacted in these situations, how we instinctively handled ourselves physically and what our instant coping mechanisms were, ultimately gives us more of an indication of our preparedness for a real attack than hours of largely theoretical randori on the mats.

OK, so what about building upon this foundation? Well, that's simple and many of you probably already have made your own progress... I'm talking off the top of my head about solo climbing [no partner, no ropes], caving, skydiving, moto-X jumping, off-piste skiing, downhill MTBing, free-diving and any of the the myriad other activities in which you don't have a metaphorical [or literal] safety net. They are activities in which at any stage, you could end up in serious trouble. I think anyone interested in building upon that instantaneous and instinctive SD preparedness might consider these activities as well as trad SD training in the martial school.

Sparring on the mats simply contains no elements of genuine foreboding danger and while you're undoubtedly training techniques which -credit due- may benefit you in a real attack, having your entire SD portfolio of coping mechanisms based solely on sparring and technque training is neither a balanced nor a holistic approach.

I'm aware few of us like to be challenged in our beliefs. Regarding SD in our martial arts, we believe unquestioningly in what we're told, taught and what we read with neither convincing personal proof of its efficacy nor genuine experience of its application and we'll readily, and often aggressively, defend our beliefs to all comers and objectors. In this respect, many of us are little better than advocates any of the ancient, vociferous and ominously totalitarian world religions.

But stop, think and perhaps set the dogmatism aside for a minute. I've really got no one to convince. I'm on no crusade, I'm just talking here with the genuine intent of challenging a martial ideology that from what I'm hearing [and what I've experienced] is hoisted up as being beyond question. If an SD system is beyond question it belongs in the realms of the despot and to my knowledge, none of the great artists who formulated our wonderful arts were of any such mind...

Respects!

 

[lonecoyote]

Respect to you, too! I certainly took no offense and appreciate your viewpoints and understand where you're coming from. I do believe that working w/out a net in any endeavor will harden resolve, in fact, how could it help but do so. A couple of points to consider-Many dojos are more hardcore than you think. I knew a guy who would hold classes for kids, had an after school program, etc. and a successful adults class w/ lots of friendly folks who were into helping each other acheive their best, which is how a successful commercial dojo should be run. Friday nights about 9:30 after the adult TKD class was getting ready to go home, the storm clouds would gather, some guys in Gis, someguys just wearing shorts, Tshirts, and carrying mouthpieces, turned into a completely different place. Still a good place, but much different. I've seen the same thing in some Satuday and Sunday sparring only classes and other late night classes. Not all martial artists stick strictly to a certain dogma, and you can find more than a few places where students and instructors together are taking things very, very close to real fighting. Now, how to put your ideas into practice-How about short fights, prearranged in a park, vacant lot, empty street, beach, etc, day or night. Set short time limits to keep things fast and yet limit the amount of punishment. Rotate fighters often. Fast, fast, fast, then jump in the van, drive somewhere else and do it again. Take two cars, make teams. Or work scenarios, 2vs.1, armed vs. unarmed. Is that your kind of idea? Give us a little more of what you would have us do, its pretty easy to run something down, but what do you want to create instead?

 

[7starmantis]

The street is a nice, safe place to hang out - statistically speaking - but if you pay any heed to your newspapers the truth would appear to lie completely contrary to such statistics. The streets have potential to be highly and mortally dangerous. Alas, some of us I believe are so swamped in our own complacency and martial conceit that we edge ever closer to failure of acknowledgement of these dangers, trusting instead our own [unproven] SD training.

I completely agree, I think there are many martial artist who are “swamped in their own complacency” but I simply don’t think that is the fate of all martial artists. Also, I disagree with your use of the word “unproven”. While you may be speaking from your own personal experiences which may have been in schools that left you “unproven” that is not the case in all “indoor” training. I’m sorry, that’s just absurd. What kind of proof would you offer to support that kind of statement? Also remember that I have used my “indoor” training to protect myself on “the street”. One thing that was brought up a few posts back is the ability to escape a violent confrontation, if you think that is not SD you are terribly wrong. Now I understand your point here is fighting and we can assume we are talking about after de-escalation has failed, but your simply blanketing in the same way the people you are talking about are. You are so strongly convinced of your point that you blanket that point to every martial artist at the same time you warn against blanketing their training to cover SD.

Again, I'm not belittling anyone's training. What I'm saying is that gauging one's performance in an real altercation can at best be guesswork, without ever testing one's mettle in the live situation.

Again, while you have a point its not complete. On some technical level I can agree that training is “theoretical” on the sense of intent of the attacker. However, if this alters the way in which you train, maybe you should seek out different training partners. There are those out there interested in alive realistic training. What exactly would you list as different from “in doors” training to “live situations”? What makes the difference? Because like it or not, you will fight the way in which you train and while that usually has a negative connotation it can have a very positive one as well. If I train seriously and realistically enough, there need not be any change in my behavior from “training” to “live combat”. I’m not sure how you train but I train quite a bit in full contact combat and I want to do it then exactly as I would on the amazing streets. Guess what…I do. I’m missing your point as to what is so different. I see the intent being different, and the adrenaline and situations, but why do you believe that automatically dissolves your training?

The simple fact is that where a gangsta may differ from you or I is in their intent to follow through. I use the term "gangsta" to pinpoint a stereotypical street hoodlum. OK, let's be honest, he may be chap who may well have no skill and he may well not be 250 lb of muscle, but he is proven willing to carry through an intent to filch your purse or wallet [or worse] and back up that intent with action and commitment. I'm sure of course, there are many pleasant and jovial gangstas out there helping their communities

Apologies to our gangsta brethren for any gratuitous stereotyping...

Ok, I’ll try to lay this out as best I can. The way I perform in training is not contingent on anyone else’s actions or intentions. If your training is lacking follow through, I would advise seeking out different training. I think the issue is your bad experiences with martial arts, but don’t be naïve enough to apply those experiences to all martial artists.

Again, nope. Nothing mystic about this place. At its most primal though, it's a place where anyone with intent can attack you with neither fear or concern for damaging you or killing you, nor of actual retribution from you or punishment from the law. *These* are the things you can never train in the dojo.

Here I think is the problem with your romanticization of “the streets”. While I don’t propose blind faith in your skills I must also not support blind faith in your would be attackers feelings, thoughts, or concerns. While you can not train in your school against a person who disregards your safety altogether (arguably) what does that disregard do for the attacker? What does it offer them that gives them the edge on you? Because bottom line, if I’m attacked, I have no regard for their safety whatsoever. I train to unleash as violent an attack as humanly possible, we often say to turn on such violence as to scare a serial killer. This is a part of my system and training, I don’t think a disregard for my personal safety gives a would be attacker a physical edge over me…and I’ve proven that.

I have had the pleasure to train in many practise halls. Seldom have I encountered one where students do not give 100% commitment to their sparring or randori. But yes I am saying to a great extent it's unrealistic simply because in a sterile environment it's impossible to train for a live SD situation. We can approximate certainly, though often our approximations are borne out of ignorance and are not representative of techniques [for want of a better word] that real attackers use to achieve their goal. Choke holds and bear hugs? Heck in my art we train for wrist grabs, LOL. All of these have their place within their arts but not as part of an effective SD strategy.

Once again I must advise looking at your own training then. Remember, I do not take part in “sparring” or “randori”….I think your taking one type of training and trying to apply it to everyone. First, I disagree that wrist grabs do not have their place in SD. Second, I must yet again refer you to your own experiences with SD training. If your training has included ignorant and unrealistic scenarios, I’m sorry but you simply can’t try to say all SD training follows the same mold….you would be horribly mistaken. I see what your point is based on and I agree, we cannot ever really apply all possible variants to SD training, but your placing such unrealistic importance on these variables. The attackers intent “shouldn’t” change my actions, if it does you may need to check your training.

This is my point exactly, that fighting on the street *is* dangerous and more pertinently, does leave no room for mistakes. I mean, what's the very worst that can happen to you when sparring full contact? A bloody nose? A broken toe? At the end, your sparring partner has concern for your injuries, as do your compadres. It's by no means a hostile situation.

You're completely correct in saying that training should be such that it doesn't allow for mistakes but heck, make a mistake in your randori session and well, nobody gets killed...

Actually I don’t even really know what randori is, but there are much much worse injuries possible than a broken toe or nose. This is a classic example of placing too much importance on aftereffects. Whether your partner cares for your injuries after the fight is ended or not is irrelevant during the fight (or should be). Your applying the possible outcomes as determining factors to the actual SD situation. If you approach a pure SD situation with a set outcome in your head (as I’ve already said) you are most likely already dead.

I'd *so* like to believe this. For me, what happens on the mats and what happens when someone lunges at you with the half smashed neck of a beer bottle are a million miles apart and not so lazily reconcilable.

Then I suggest your training is unrealistic. I’m not trying to offend, but if you react or act differently on the mats than you would in a pure SD situation you are not realistically training. See, for me, what happens in our combat in school is EXACTLY what I will do (and have done) on “the street”.

The problem is that all through our MA training as we progress through the ranks, building our ring or mat experience and developing our skill and speed, we're deluding our subconscious into believing we are ready for the street as though this "safe" test-tube skillset will automatically translate into workable live fighting competency. For me, I don't believe this is the case. I had my skillset disproven to me somewhere around the middle of my martial career to date, and it forced a rethink of what I thought I knew and of how good a fighter I thought I was.

I think there really is an odor of complacency and conceit that hangs heavy over SD practices in the martial community. Some pay nothing more than lip service to SD techniques. Some are happily ignorant dealing in irrelevancies but ultimately it's the prevailing attitude of vanity and self-satisfaction with our SD systems that are convincing us that the training we have somehow elevates us above the level of street hoodlums.

Once again I completely agree. Your mistake is applying that same belief to ALL martial artists or those training for SD. If you have something proven to you, you need to learn from it and grow as it seems you have, but your applying your broken beliefs to all martial artists. In a sense your putting thoughts into their heads and then condemning them for it.

It's not that the army isn't prepared, a more accurate hypothesis might be that those troops who have not seen action in the live theatre before are perhaps not as prepared as those veterans who have. One of the saddest testaments to this is the oft-cited Vietnam war which failed so many young and courageous troops who may have previously had faith in their preparedness.

This is a change of opinion for you then? Because you have said those training in SD are not prepared…not that they are less prepared. Lets not get into Vietnam on this thread, that’s a whole other discussion.

I'm not saying your training or my training will not apply to the street, I'm saying that we cannot AUTOMATICALLY ASSUME what works on the mats will work when someone doesn't flash a blade about in your face but rather runs up behind you and plunges it straight into your kidneys.

I agree, however I do not agree that the test is to put yourself in that situation. I believe testing can be done in the school (as I have proven). What your talking about is self-destructive. Your proposing putting yourself in the real situation to “Test” but how many times have you allowed your training partner to jam a blade into your kidneys? This is a self destructive mentality that give exactly the same false confidence you spoke of earlier. We train to better protect ourselves, if you are cut, broken, and worn down you cant protect anything.

Exactly. SD is a set of techniques and theories that we train and practise in the vacuum of our dojos, dojangs, clubs, schools and practise halls. Street fighting on the other hand, is the mortally dangerous situation one is involuntarily *forced* into to keep oneself alive and unharmed.

This is the bottom line. You are placing a physical edge on the “mortally dangerous” situation. If you would act differently from your training during a mortally dangerous situation then I agree….you need to search elsewhere.

OK, to me, some of you get the idea, some don't wish to question the martial doctrines in which you have been raised, and others simply don't care. Fair enough, all opinions are equally welcome and valid in my house. But rather than having us stuck in the defensive loop, let me provide another alternative... I mean Evangelism I've called it but I'm seeking no converts, I'm just trying to challenge y'all to think seriously about how well you're prepared for the worst.

That’s a good thing, but then you turn around and use language like “some don't wish to question the martial doctrines in which you have been raised”. That’s self contradictory. You apply this blanket of carelessness and lazyness to the same people you are saying “I’m just trying to get you to think”.

7sm

 

[shesulsa]

I have been physically attacked four times in my life and been on the wrong side of a gun once.

I've been in several automobile accidents but none severe, and I have had someone try to put me down since I've been training in martial arts.

I'll tell you what happens. Your adrenaline starts to pump through your veins like speed. Then everything goes into slow motion. Some people lose awareness of what they're doing at about that point. Your training kicks in.

The last time I had to use anything on anybody was a simple joint lock and a pressure point. This took someone who was going to throw me on the ground out from in front of me and put them on the ground next to me, their dominant arm locked up and inaccessible. Was I in fear for my life at the time? Yes.

That is a simple move - not even a formal technique in our system. Will my self-defense work should I be attacked again? I guess that depends on the situation, now doesn't it?

I don't care whether a person trains on the mat or in the street or in their garage, there will always be someone out there who will clean the sidewalk/mat/floor with them. I don't care how many fights they've won how many trophies they hold, one day they will lose or cut bait before they lose.

You train your way, I'll train mine.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

isn't the best self-defense avoiding the conflict in the first place?

one of the first signs of evolution i look for in my students is no longer having the desire to fight or prove themselves 'in the street'.

 

[MartialIntent]

lonecoyote,

Firstly, thanks for the post, and for your ideas and no, I ain't actually peddling any system or viewpoint by starting this thread, I'm merely using Bar Brawl Evangelism as an image or scenario to focus readers' attention [the success of which remains in some doubt, hehe!]

To that end, I have no panacea to what I'd see as a bloated confidence and lacking credibility in the martial arts SD scene in general. As has been pointed out, I patently don't know what everyone trains so would naturally be in no position to comment specifically. There may be some who train for the extreme though I'd still maintain from my experience and my martial travels that there exist a majority of SD teachings which although taught with great verve, skill and experience by women and men with unquestionable motives and integrity, are nevertheless taught in the absence of an appreciation of the true application, thereby negating large chunks within those teachings.

So in answer to your question, what are my great ideas? Well, I have none. As has been alluded to in a previous post, one man's meat is evidently another's poison. It would be impertinent of me [and unwise judging by the general posting tone!] to suggest any specific technique for any specific line of training. For the purposes of this thread I'm just the facilitator however, it's coincidental that you should mention ...

Friday nights about 9:30 after the adult TKD class was getting ready to go home, the storm clouds would gather, some guys in Gis, someguys just wearing shorts, Tshirts, and carrying mouthpieces, turned into a completely different place.

As we also had a similar "after hours" with the specific intent of winnowing techniques into more SD-relevant forms [Aikido]. "Gatecrashing" brought the idea to an abrupt halt. But for me, it was ironically the gatecrashers who raised the stakes, heightened the realism and thereby increased the potential for participants to make gains.

In the end, there's no pressing need to confront the real world. It's safer in the dojo.

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

7starmantis,

A great blow by blow post, thanks for this.

I doubt I'd have the werewithal to reply with any level of eloquence. But might I ask instead how confident you'd be of your own SD capabilities [as a % maybe?] I'm talking on average, just getting on with your normal day to day business.

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

You train your way, I'll train mine.

Resoluteness can be an admirable quality no doubt...

Shesulsa, far be it from me to give any input into your [or anyone else's] specific training methods. In respect of those, I'd class myself as an expert in nothing. In this thread I am simply posting a challenge for everyone to evaluate their own SD training in relation to potential real world hazards.

Unfortunately, the tendency to take offense and the nature of issuing a challenge to folk's martial arts SD beliefs seem to go together like Bonnie and Clyde. To that end, apologies if I have offended you [or anyone else], as sincerely, none is intended. And if I have offended you by suggesting that you'd be offended by something as trivial as this post, I further apologize.

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

isn't the best self-defense avoiding the conflict in the first place?

That's a given without a doubt. My point is that some situations are simply unavoidable no matter how highly ranked in verbal de-escalation a martial artist may be. In those cases, is the mindset with which we have trained behind closed doors of our clubs and schools, useable in a live attack? Question.

My answer would have to be no simply because until someone tries to really hurt you or kill you in the dojo you can never truly know how you will react. And er... no, again, I'm not advocating that or anything like that but rather just presenting an idea.

I'd say training techniques in the safety and sterility of the dojo are not *automatically* workable in the the brutality of the street. And my challenge is to your confidence in your abilities in that light. I'm not attacking, I'm simply issuing everyone with that challenge purely for themselves.

Respects!

 

[Hand Sword]

First, your getting caught up in semantics of the words being used. While I agree that words can create and set a mood, thats why we use words like combat, life or death, etc. Your again assuming a certain type of training and applying it to all training. In my training we dont use words like "sparring" or "playing hands" its "combat". You should create the same scenarios in your training that you could encounter outsdie it. The actual intent of my attacker isn't going to change the way I combat him (if it does your training is lacking). I've seen many, many street fights and such as a paramedic in Houston Texas, but I have to propose that if your "street fight" ranges on beyond say a minute or two, you should really look at your training again. I'm not talking about "street fights" where the two are trying to beat down each other or establish dominance, but where I'm going for eyes, knees, etc. Anything else is a mistake on this magical "street" your discussing. If the scenarios and such aren't there in training, maybe you should ask "why".


I applaud your mindset, that said, call it what you will, but, it's not combat. Some of my Marine friends will attest to that, no matter your training. I've already said that we should train as close as possible to the real thing. So we do agree on that. However, Semantics has nothing to do with it, and I didn't confuse it. There are levels one has to be willing to rise to in real encounters. The attackers intent should decide how you defend yourself. You don't destroy a drunk, that can hardly stand, and takes one, big round punch at you. But, you will destroy someone who caught you in a dark alley and is trying to do you in. A change in mindset? YES! In a dojo, your always in the same mindset--Your aware your training. A hit that lands will do damage, but, isn't there a "sorry" after, a touch of gloves? You won't get that out there! You'll just get more shots.

I respect what you've seen, it plays a part. But, with respect, seeing and doing are two different things. Your kids see you drive, can they? Your also right about the times you've proposed. If you fight for more than 10 seconds your probably going to lose. It might not seem long, but it is, if your in it. Your targets are correct as well, but, I promise you not as easy to get to as you claim. Adrenaline, drugs, pain tolerance are different for people. add that to something not present in dojo training-- STRESS--that you feel, where your motor skills are the first to go, that adds to the difficulty. Also, don't assume that they'll drop because you landed strikes to those areas. I 've seen ears ripped off, stabbings, etc.. and the fights continued! The streets aren't magical, never claimed they were, dojo scenarios, no matter how intense, aren't either. The streets are however reality. People in dojos aren't usually the types that commit these attrocities. They wouldnt join a dojo and put in the work-- Another proof of differing mindsets. You wouldn't want to be locked somewhere with the kinds of people being referred to.

 

[7starmantis]

7starmantis,

A great blow by blow post, thanks for this.

I doubt I'd have the werewithal to reply with any level of eloquence. But might I ask instead how confident you'd be of your own SD capabilities [as a % maybe?] I'm talking on average, just getting on with your normal day to day business.

Respects!

First, let me say I understand what your trying to do here and I respect it. I also respect your resolve to stay "friendly" and not offend. Now, I would not know how to relate my confidence in my SD capabilities to a percentage. I would most certainly not attribute a high percentage as I am a realist and understand the nature of SD fighting. I think overconfidence can kill you. I also wouldn't put it too low as I've protected myself in real SD situations with more than one attacker. Maybe its not what your looking for but I would put into a percentage my confidence in the ability of my training to deal with SD situations. I'm extremely confident that the training I do and what goes on in my training is relatable to "the street". I am so because I've seen it with myself and other students. So all things considered I'm more than confident enough to perform my normal daily routines if that means anything. My main issue with your posts are that you seem to believe that it is impossible to train in a way to make you ready for "the street". I still dont understand why you believe this way. Maybe if you could lay out what you feel is lacking in training on a physical technique level.

I applaud your mindset, that said, call it what you will, but, it's not combat. Some of my Marine friends will attest to that, no matter your training. I've already said that we should train as close as possible to the real thing. So we do agree on that. However, Semantics has nothing to do with it, and I didn't confuse it. There are levels one has to be willing to rise to in real encounters. The attackers intent should decide how you defend yourself. You don't destroy a drunk, that can hardly stand, and takes one, big round punch at you. But, you will destroy someone who caught you in a dark alley and is trying to do you in. A change in mindset? YES! In a dojo, your always in the same mindset--Your aware your training. A hit that lands will do damage, but, isn't there a "sorry" after, a touch of gloves? You won't get that out there! You'll just get more shots.

With all due respect, I think it might be wise for you to reserve your judgment of others training until you have experienced it. While what I refer to as "combat" in my training may not be firing live bullets at each other, it most certainly is combat. In the sense of:

1. To oppose in battle; fight against.
2. To oppose vigorously; struggle against

v. intr.

To engage in fighting; contend or struggle.

I suport the use of the word combat because it gives the participant an idea of what is to come. You speak of "dojo awareness" and "sporting touches" but that is not present in combat and not in my training for such. Also, no there is no "sorry" after a touch of gloves. I have really been trying to make the point that most people are assuming everyones training matches their own, that is not the case. In our training there is only "more shots" as you say until the encounter is over by one of the agreed upon ways. As far as intent this has allways been a big issue of mine. I dont mean intent in the way you took it where its a drunk friend because I dont see that as intent I see that as condition. The intent is still the same, the drunk is still attacking me. Now, having said that I do not consider myself capable of knowing the intent of every person, therefore if I am attacked, I'm most certainly NOT going to pull anything because I assume their intentions (good or bad). As a 28 year old man, if I'm fighting, if its come to that, I'm fighting for my life or the life of my family....no intention is going to change my actions there. While there is a scale or reasonable force, to assume an attakers intent is a huge mistake and one that may just end your conflict way too soon or in a way you wouldn't choose. Would I try and kill the drunk who swings at me? No of course not, but I'm also not going to fight him either. Take into consideration that many people have been seriously injured by drunk people hardly able to stand, if you allow a preconcieved notion to police your actions you may just end up on the wrong side of that situation.

I respect what you've seen, it plays a part. But, with respect, seeing and doing are two different things. Your kids see you drive, can they? Your also right about the times you've proposed. If you fight for more than 10 seconds your probably going to lose. It might not seem long, but it is, if your in it. Your targets are correct as well, but, I promise you not as easy to get to as you claim. Adrenaline, drugs, pain tolerance are different for people. add that to something not present in dojo training-- STRESS--that you feel, where your motor skills are the first to go, that adds to the difficulty. Also, don't assume that they'll drop because you landed strikes to those areas. I 've seen ears ripped off, stabbings, etc.. and the fights continued! The streets aren't magical, never claimed they were, dojo scenarios, no matter how intense, aren't either. The streets are however reality. People in dojos aren't usually the types that commit these attrocities. They wouldnt join a dojo and put in the work-- Another proof of differing mindsets. You wouldn't want to be locked somewhere with the kinds of people being referred to.

I completely agree, seeing and doing are two different things, thats why you should "do" in your training. Also keep in mind I'm coming from a place of "doing" allready in my life. I have claimed no ease in any confrontation whether it be striking certain targets or not. Thats the probem with these kinds of discussions, assumptions run rampant. I only mentioned certain targets, I didn't speak at all of their ease "to get". I used those terms to describe the mindset of the fight; ie one that is serious, one that is life threatening. Again, it might be best if we all just clear our minds of what we think of "dojo training" for this discussion. If stress is not a part of your training then I wholeheartedly believe you are not training realistically. See, you have a certain type of training in your head and are applying that preconceived notion against all training. Stress is a huge part of realistic training. Also, I didn't say anything about someone dropping from a strike to any area. In fact, one of the main principles of my "style" is not relying on anything to drop a person. We continue fighting until the person is not a threat anymore. We explain to beginners that you dont stop fighting when you knock a person down, you fight them on the way down and into the pavement until they cannot threaten you any longer. I agree with what your saying about "dojo people" versus "street people", but that is only a generalization. In fact, I train to (when neccesary) be much more violent and vicious than most martial artist could stomach. See, a big part of our training is mental. Its a whole different level of training to learn to "flip the switch" in your mind to fight in certain ways. Many "martial artists" would consider that type of fighting to be nasty, violent, cheap, what have you. I say thats exactly what I want to do in that type of fight. In fact, I train in such a way that those people wouldn't want to be locked in a room with me not the other way around.

Let me be clear about a few things. First, I'm not trying to promote my way of training and I'm certainly not insinuating that my way is the only way. I also dont want to give the idea that I think my type of training is in the minority, look around a bit, there are alot of people starting to train realistically and alive. I agree that there is an element missing in training. You aren't goin to actually break your partners arm (or what have you) but why do you think the ability to stop before causing serious injury somehow detracts from your ability to apply the needed extra pressure to break the arm? Its hard to get to that point, but its not impossible to train with the intensity and stress of a real situation. Many dont do it because its extremely taxing on the body and mind, but its real. Why is training "theory" or "untested" when I test it everyday with my partners? What is it about a real situation that makes you think your training is lacking? I throw full power kicks, punches, throws, takedowns, locks, etc everyday. I'm in the bag room hours and hours a week. I dont see why I should assume my training is not enough to protect me. I dont propose assuming it will protect you, but I believe it is possibel to test your skill for real situations, it just takes some effort and creativity.

7sm

 

[CuongNhuka]

My therapist jokeingly suggested something like this. Myself and anouther gentleman (that's what the kid called himself) got into a little scuffle, and he wants to beat me up. Jon (my therapist) suggested that the school (were this happened) should put a boxing ring and rent out space to kidds who want to fight. If you think about it, it kinda makes sense. The desire to fight is almost basic human insetect. And if it's done with rules, referees (the gym teachers) and a few percautions, it would allow people to beat the crapp out of each other, and there would a drasticly reduced chance of someone dieing. And it could be done without anyone riscing getting into trouble. It almost makes sense. But it will never happen. Congress, Senate, and other law makers have it set so that nothing like that will ever happen.
I read a story though, of a bar in North Carolian that allowed people that had issues to deal with it in the back room with an old Irish martial sport called "purring". It is the same idea as Boxing, but you can only kick, and it's only to the knee or below. But this was back in the 1800's.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade,

John