Bad Chi Sao has ruined WC as a fighting art!

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hunschuld

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No core version other than a concept and how you execute the concept.

When closing there is a universal problem. You do not want to present your head as a fixed target. Boxing uses weaving,bobbing etc. . Moving your head can present balance issues that boxers don't have to worry about since there are no take downs in boxing. So the concept is to use your footwork to keep changing your angle of attack and defense and to keep your head changing position. Shifting steps are useful when you are on the inside, by that I mean you are inside your opponents arms. Shifting is also a way to generate power
 

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Sounds similar to our crane footwork. Most videos I see of wing chun contain the footwork of the rooted snake, rarely the agile crane.
 

EdwardA

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WC sticky hand + Taiji push hand

will make the training more complete. But there are still something missing such as...

The Asian that trained me from 1968 to 1976 refused to speak any Chinese. In the same years I practiced Tai Chi with a guy that learned it in Hawaii. He never told me much, except that it was from the Dung family...maybe Tsung.

After that I worked with a few people here and there and never picked up the Chinese. Even now, decades later....I've read and see the names, but don't remember. My bad.

I'm not sure if anything is complete, but I was taught how to move even more so than movements. I've fought some in the air against big guys (climbed them like tree), and on the ground too.... fought in between the results of both.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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The Asian that trained me from 1968 to 1976 refused to speak any Chinese. In the same years I practiced Tai Chi with a guy that learned it in Hawaii. He never told me much, except that it was from the Dung family...maybe Tsung.

After that I worked with a few people here and there and never picked up the Chinese. Even now, decades later....I've read and see the names, but don't remember. My bad.
Here is my question, if you have trained both WC and Taiji, when you train

- WC sticky hand, do you try to ignore your Taiji push hand knowledge?
- Taiji push hand, do you try to ignore your WC sticky hand knowledge?

Will you keep your knowledge separate, or will you try to integrate both. If you have integrated both, what will you call that training?

I'm sure you are not the only person on earth who has cross trained both WC and Taiji. Why have we not heard anybody who shared his integration experience so far?
 

EdwardA

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Completely integrated...as far as a sticky hands routine, or in combat.

I haven't run across anybody else, but I stick pretty private now days.

I don't call it anything..."sticky hands".

I decided to start posting some here to see if anybody else has gone in a similar direction.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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Completely integrated...
Please share more of your integration experience.

1, Single arm training:

WC single sticky hand - Your right arm contact your opponent's left arm.
Taiji single push hand - Your right hand contact your opponent's right wrist.

Double arms training:

WC double sticky hands - Your right arm contact your opponent's left arm. Your left arm contact your opponent's right arm.
Taiji double push hands - Your leading hand contact your opponent's leading arm wrist. Your back hand contact your opponent's leading arm elbow.
 

yak sao

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Completely integrated...as far as a sticky hands routine, or in combat.

I haven't run across anybody else, but I stick pretty private now days.

I don't call it anything..."sticky hands".

I decided to start posting some here to see if anybody else has gone in a similar direction.

I've learned WT from a couple of different Sifu, one of whom was from Hong Kong.
He taught us the Tai Chi form and pushing hands to help our WT skills.

I can honestly say it helped my WT but to say that I am proficient in Tai Chi I would be lying to myself and to you.
 

EdwardA

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That's quite a question, and I'll try to explain, even tho I'm using my phone.

I learned the 108 moves of the Tsung style and the push hands, but my primary instuctor insisted that I didn't learn moves. He insisted that I practiced spontaneous movement in structure that he could correct when he saw something wrong. Instead of practicing moves, he made me imagin 3-4 opponents and do my sets that way. When it came to sticky hands I had to teach the students what I was doing. His training of me for some unknown reason was completely customized for me...never charged me a dime, when everybody else paid.

I only have ideas of why but don't know why. We did not part in good company. What he taught me was strictly for the street and to hurt people badly with as little effort as possible. I integrated Tai Chi into it so that I could cotrol opponents without maiming them. He didn't like that one bit.
 
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Kung Fu Wang

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How to integrate these?

WC single sticky hand - your right arm touch your opponent's left arm.

WC-single-sticky-hand.jpg


Taiji single push hand - your right arm touch your opponent's right arm.

Taiji-single-ph.jpg
 
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EdwardA

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The only time I did single hand was so the students could learn that and go on to double hand.

For myself, I practiced being amadextrius. I believd in that from the beginning. Circular or straight line, I could do the same with either or both. I even practiced writing with both hands like a mirror...at the same time, of course. It was natural for me.

Referring to the last photo, I don't attack, but move inside the attacker at the same time, again like a mirror inside a mirror. Defense and offense in the same movement.

Blocking and sticking at the same time. Receptivity, speed. That's my advantage.

I talked to my istuctor about and I named it the magnetic mirror. He didnt say much, but seemed encouraging. I taught myself that.

Added: if you are asking about more detail of controlling someone's arms... moving inside or outside for control, yes with the wrist and forearm, but my perferrence is to control their movement, in that circumstance, is at, or near the elbow.
 
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EdwardA

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The way I was taught, there is no form, only stucture. You don't learn vantage points for controlling movement, you have to learn how vantage points work so you can apply them to any movement...as it occurs.

So the sticky hands I developed from WC and TC is formless, but retains the posture, balance and underlying technical structure of the original systems.

There are no moves, only undertermined movement.

I can't tell anyone that what I did was the right way or the wrong way. That's the direction I went and was very effective on the steet, even people that were trained. The gang-bangers were the most dangerous because one guy would stay back until he could sneak in behind you.... wouldn't even know he was with the other two. They planned it that way. Organized.
 
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Jens

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Both are versions. There are a couple more variations.

How many variations/versions of shifting steps are there?

Would you say anytime you torque to step is considered "shifting step"?

So the concept is to use your footwork to keep changing your angle of attack and defense and to keep your head changing position.

In both these versions the head still appears to remain on the center line instead of changing your angle of attack and defense, so not too sure what you mean here?

Shifting steps are useful when you are on the inside, by that I mean you are inside your opponents arms. Shifting is also a way to generate power

Would you say "shifting steps" applications are best used when occupying the 3 gates inside the opponent’s arms?
 
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EdwardA

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This is the Taiji PH that I'm talking about. It's predefined pattern.


I would have to watch this carefully several times to offer an opinion. Being out in a rural area means I'm out of data for now. I reedited and uploaded a coulpe videos to youtube a week ago....now im low on data. The vids are just heavy bag routines tho.

I live a ways North of Spring Branch off 281, by the way.

How long is the video.
 
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EdwardA

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I did stated a new thread. But no WC guys share their opinion there so far. Does this kind of integration discussion not interest to any WC guys?

I think most believe in very strong tradition and I agree for most practitioners. In '60s to the early '70s people were creating systems like JKD and Kenpo, but that's a hard way to go especially if you intend on convincing people of the validity. Personally, I never cared whether anybody else was interested in what I was doing, but found some that were after they spent a little time seeing what I was doing. I never tried to be official about it or tell many.

I'll look for your other thread, but you might put its link here.
 
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hunschuld

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How many variations/versions of shifting steps are there?

Would you say anytime you torque to step is considered "shifting step"?



In both these versions the head still appears to remain on the center line instead of changing your angle of attack and defense, so not too sure what you mean here?



Would you say "shifting steps" applications are best used when occupying the 3 gates inside the opponent’s arms?
You are getting past my ability to write an explanation. Entering much easier to show you than describe territory. The shift happens when you foot lands so front foot lands/shifts back foot shifts or also lands/ shifts.

As for the head in the video. There are variations some things harder to learn/do than others/.

As for the 3 inside gates that is where I personally use them. You can use them anywhere.
 

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