Bad Chi Sao has ruined WC as a fighting art!

Jens

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Its different than the 12 sections but is a fine form. I like Yip Chings and WSL form better but all YM forms are different to some degree. Tradition is that there is only 1 knife man in a family and he gets the 12 sections. Yip Bo Ching was that man for YMWC

Would you say all
the material of the Yip Bo Ching 12 sections are also covered in Yip Ching's and Ho Kam Ming's 8 section knife sets?


Tan Sau is the action of spreading or opening up the opponents center line. So spreading hand

What's your definition or explanation of the Tan Sau Spreading action?

Of all the direct Yip Man students that you've seen, in your opinion who have the correct Hip usage?
 
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hunschuld

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Would you say all
the material of the Yip Bo Ching 12 sections are also covered in Yip Ching's and Ho Kam Ming's 8 section knife sets?
No


Of all the direct Yip Man students that you've seen, in your opinion who have the correct Hip usage?
Its not something I have seen emphasized from anyone in a public setting. Most do some type of hammer/knail thing with the full body and locked hips. Some have talked about after I have brought it up with them. Chu Shong Tin always seemed most open about internal and body use in general

What's your definition or explanation of the Tan Sau Spreading action?

Three parts or options. It comes into play after contact. Primary action comes from the elbow. it can be done with the wrist and of course the whole body via shift. Used to either open a path to the center or move object off the center. short ging can be used. Always followed with a strike. If overdone can be countered with running hand. This most easily happens when spreading with a shift..

My observation through the years is the use of short ging seems to be problematic early on in training so using the body has gotten relied upon. Its primarily done with the elbow
 

wckf92

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Would you say all
the material of the Yip Bo Ching 12 sections are also covered in Yip Ching's and Ho Kam Ming's 8 section knife sets?

It appeared to be missing some footwork(?)
 

Jens

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Three parts or options. It comes into play after contact. Primary action comes from the elbow. it can be done with the wrist and of course the whole body via shift. Used to either open a path to the center or move object off the center. short ging can be used. Always followed with a strike. If overdone can be countered with running hand. This most easily happens when spreading with a shift.

Does the Tan sau immediately spread directly to the side? or using more of an elbow retracting motion which pulls as it gradually spreads to the side to either open a path to the center or move object off the center?
 
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hunschuld

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Its the elbow motion.You only need to move the opponent arm half an inch or less to change the line or open the center.. The more you move your arm to spread the easier it is for the other person to run around your spreading motion. Always stay tight. If the elbow isn't doing it you ad the wrist with ging.
 

Jens

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Its different than the 12 sections but is a fine form. I like Yip Chings and WSL form better but all YM forms are different to some degree. Tradition is that there is only 1 knife man in a family and he gets the 12 sections. Yip Bo Ching was that man for YMWC

Are there major differences between the Yip Bo Ching 12 section knife form and the WSL 12 section knife form? if so please elaborate.

Does Lo Kwai wing chun emphasize punching along different angular lines such as circular and hook punches? or is there more of a heavy reliance on straight center line punches as in to Yip Man wing chun?
 
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hunschuld

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Punching, all angles, hooks ,uppercuts overhand hammer hangingfist/backfist to name the main punches in addition to straight punch then there are the different body usage tied to punches ,rising falling sinking swinging etc

Knife question. Have given how to answer this some thought. First there are2 general wing chun knife forms. Some lines have a southern set not a specific wing chun set. Leung Jan WC has a set specific to wing chun. The purpose is one how to fight with weapons. Two how to fight with Wing Chun specific hands and techniques.

All forms are knife forms. Do Chum Kui holding knives and you have a knife form. Since the knife form is meant to train how to fight with WC hands all knife forms from Leung Jan are similar. All Yip Man forms are similar for the same reason. One form may have "A" one may have 'B' but they are all similar.

Some forms have left out things you need for real fighting some forms have dead bodies. Some forms hold knives in ways that would get you killed if you faced a sword or other weapons

The Ho Kam Ming form above is a fine form however all you have to do is look at how the body is used and how the knives are held to see some issues.

The Knife form on one level is the companion to the dummy form. The dummy form is giving basic combat suggestions after the bridge has been crossed. The knife form is providing suggestions on how to cross the bridge and maintain the crossing. It is based on aggression the dummy based on counter fighting. If you can close the gap and cross vs a sword you can do it vs a fist .

The Yip Bo Ching form I was taught has things that I have not seen in other YM forms. However the YBC form has almost all of the same things as the LK form.
 

Jens

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@hunschuld

Besides Tan Sau what were the other misnamed and misunderstood hands according to Chao Kwai sifu?

When "covering", how do you determine where your exposed areas are? or which of your gates to close? especially if the opponent moves erratically.

In Lo Kwai wing chun how is "Stillness to overcome movement" ?
 
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hunschuld

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@hunschuld

Besides Tan Sau what were the other misnamed and misunderstood hands according to Chao Kwai sifu?

When "covering", how do you determine where your exposed areas are? or which of your gates to close? especially if the opponent moves erratically.

In Lo Kwai wing chun how is "Stillness to overcome movement" ?

Now you are going into actual fighting. It starts with my opponent moves but I move first.


To do everything you mentioned comes down to one thing. After determining distance and stance you don't pay attention to what the opponent is doing. Erratic movement does not matter. Distance and position is what we care about. Once my bridging distance is reached I move based on position to bridge. Therefore I know what gates I need to cover because I am not reacting to what someone else is doing. The timing of the fight is mine not yours. The things you are talking about are only an issue if the other person is driving the timing and you are reacting. if you do this you will always have issues. Also we don't use fakes. Intent is always to strike.

This is where knife form knowledge is important. One reason we have 4 steps forward and back in each of the 12 sections. You bridge and then chase if needed. each section teaches different chasing footwork coordinated with multiple hand techniques. So you learn you try to close and bridge ,the opponent moves to avoid ,you have then trained chasing reflexes so you change to continue closing depending on the direction they moved to avoid.
 

Jens

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Punching, all angles, hooks ,uppercuts overhand hammer hangingfist/backfist to name the main punches in addition to straight punch then there are the different body usage tied to punches ,rising falling sinking swinging etc

Please give an example of how "Dong - swing" and "Jui - follow" is applied according to the Lo Kwai 18 Methods/Energies.
 

Jens

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In an earlier post you mentioned:
The concept is to use your footwork to keep changing your angle of attack and defense.

Please explain how does "use your footwork to keep changing your angle of attack and defense" relate to "Stillness to overcome movement"? these two seems to be contradicting each other.

Are you using constant motion with your footwork to keep changing your angle of attack and defense to force the opponent to re-adjust his position by "squaring " back up (i.e. why boxers use circling footwork), to prevent their opponent from "getting set" by minimizing his ability to potentially attack you continuously? or is the purpose of you using your footwork to keep changing your angle of attack and defense strictly used to counter the opponent's angle of attack and angle changes, thus you only step when he steps?
 
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hunschuld

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In an earlier post you mentioned:

Please explain how does "use your footwork to keep changing your angle of attack and defense" relate to "Stillness to overcome movement"? these two seems to be contradicting each other.

Are you using constant motion with your footwork to keep changing your angle of attack and defense to force the opponent to re-adjust his position by "squaring " back up (i.e. why boxers use circling footwork), to prevent their opponent from "getting set" by minimizing his ability to potentially attack you continuously? or is the purpose of you using your footwork to keep changing your angle of attack and defense strictly used to counter the opponent's angle of attack and angle changes, thus you only step when he steps?


I think "Stillness" is either mistranslated of just miss understood because of a lack of real fighting/sparring experience. It is closer to "deliberate" not "still" as in not moving.

Footwork usage is not either or its all of the above. Its depends on situation and what your capabilities are. Against another fat old man I may be very aggressive. Against a younger person I have to be more deliberate and defensive staying within myself if I am to have a chance.

Follow is for staying with someone that is trying to disengage Dong is for grappling range and is based on absorb and react to incoming energy
 

Jens

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I think "Stillness" is either mistranslated of just miss understood because of a lack of real fighting/sparring experience. It is closer to "deliberate" not "still" as in not moving.

Please elaborate on what you mean by "deliberate" in this context footwork/stepping above?

Follow is for staying with someone that is trying to disengage

Is "Follow" used strictly when there is already existing bridge contact as in chi sao to stick to the opponent? or can it also be used at long range when there is no existing bridge contact, for example in the context of using your footwork/stepping to track the opponent's footwork/stepping (i.e. when the opponent takes one step back you take one step forward in unison to match him)?

Dong is for grappling range and is based on absorb and react to incoming energy

Is the application of "Dong" (swing) related to "Juan" (Roll) ( i.e I pull you to your right (dong), then when you resist to your left, I switch directions taking advantage of your momentum by rolling with it to your left to throw you? another example of this is: I pull you forward towards me (dong), then when you resist backwards, I go forward rolling with your energy to throw you backwards.
 
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hunschuld

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The concept of Follow can be used anytime so the idea can and should be used without contact. AS an energy it requires contact.. You also understand Dong.

Stillness- Wing Chun is actually only learned by getting hit. No sparring against non wing chun people=no real wing chun. That is why all the stories of Leung Jan,Chan Wah,Lo Kwai Fung Wah etc fighting others. these were not bar fights they were usually learning and testing fights They all had real fights but those were few in number.

Fighting range to far away to connect, shoot range,kicking range,punching range, grapple range. No matter what some one does if they are to far away to get to me I don't have to do much. I don't have to move. As they get closer I have to do more adjustment and movement. If they are in range to shoot I react based on their shoulder movement. To go for a double leg their shoulders have to drop. I react based upon my predetermined defenses for a shoot from this distance. ie my opponent moves but I move first..
In kicking range I now have 2 things to deal with a kick or a shoot. etc At each range I have already trained various reaction. As someone gets closer the more I have to move and expend energy. If I stay still in front of a boxer I will get picked apart. No one can stop a real jab on a consistent basis when behind on timing and starting from a fixed position.

the reverse also happens when my range is reached I attack I do not wait to see what the other person is going to do. As a WC person and being old and slow that range is punching range.

However everyone's abilities ,speed and ranges are different. That is why you must spar against non WC people so you can learn and understand combat ranges. This can not be learned in chi sau nor can you learn it sparring WC only people since you both are acting at the same range For example You want to learn to defend against kicks you need a TKD person kicking you full speed and power not a WC person.. Doing this is the only way to really learn and understand wing chun Kuit.
 

Jens

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Fighting range to far away to connect, shoot range,kicking range,punching range, grapple range. No matter what some one does if they are to far away to get to me I don't have to do much. I don't have to move. As they get closer I have to do more adjustment and movement. If they are in range to shoot I react based on their shoulder movement. To go for a double leg their shoulders have to drop. I react based upon my predetermined defenses for a shoot from this distance. ie my opponent moves but I move first..
In kicking range I now have 2 things to deal with a kick or a shoot. etc At each range I have already trained various reaction. As someone gets closer the more I have to move and expend energy. If I stay still in front of a boxer I will get picked apart. No one can stop a real jab on a consistent basis when behind on timing and starting from a fixed position.

the reverse also happens when my range is reached I attack I do not wait to see what the other person is going to do. As a WC person and being old and slow that range is punching range.


If I understand you correctly above, when you are just outside fighting range you are Not using constant motion with your footwork to keep changing your angle of attack and defense while advancing with a series of incremental angular steps to take the initiative to close the distance on the opponent. Thus forcing the opponent to re-adjust his position by re-facing or "squaring" back up to you, then using his reactions to re-face you against him to set traps by taking advantage of timing to attack him while he is in the midst of refacing you?

When you are just a couple of inches outside the opponent's kicking range, you wait until the opponent breaches your punching range, then you immediately attack him, taking control by continuously attacking and dominating him?
 

Jens

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when my range is reached I attack I do not wait to see what the other person is going to do. As a WC person and being old and slow that range is punching range.

How do you define punching range? and does waiting until the opponent reaches your punching range before reacting or attacking him leave you vulnerable in shoot range/kicking range?

Once your range is reached, do you initially engage by stepping forward with a mun sau to create a bridge to control his bridge as you strike him? or strike him directly without the need for bridge control?

Once my bridging distance is reached I move based on position to bridge..

Is your bridging distance kicking range or punching range?
 
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