Bad Chi Sao has ruined WC as a fighting art!

yak sao

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Since circular punch such as hook, or hay-maker is not general used in the WC system, How to establish and remain arm contact by using the WC sticky hand when your opponent throw a hook punch at you?

There is hook punch in biu tze form and lifting punch ( uppercut) in chum kui but you are correct, there is no hay maker.
 

Danny T

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There is hook punch in biu tze form and lifting punch ( uppercut) in chum kui but you are correct, there is no hay maker.
Yeah...well in the wing chun I have learned there are several circular movement strikes that could be called hooks. The thing is for the most part the range where wc is most effective is in close therefore elbows are usually a better choice than hook punches. Our 'hooks' are predominately body strikes vs head.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Yeah...well in the wing chun I have learned there are several circular movement strikes that could be called hooks. The thing is for the most part the range where wc is most effective is in close therefore elbows are usually a better choice than hook punches. Our 'hooks' are predominately body strikes vs head.
Hook punch or hay-maker can cover wider range than elbow can.

 

yak sao

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Hook punch or hay-maker can cover wider range than elbow can.


Consider though that wing Chun fights at a range that is inside the arc of a hay maker. And if we are at a longer range, like at the onset of the fight or having been knocked back away from our preferred range of fighting, we're not going to close the distance with a round technique, we would prefer to take a more direct approach with straight punches and kicks saving the round attacks for close in.
 
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hunschuld

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Since circular punch such as hook, or hay-maker is not general used in the WC system, How to establish and remain arm contact by using the WC sticky hand when your opponent throw a hook punch at you?

I can only speak for the WC Leung Jan passed to Lo Kwai. As others have noted circular techniques exist across a wide range of WC styles.

Sticky hand is not for fighting per se. The goal of Chi Sao for us is to learn to react to an opponents energy with out thinking. In other words to build reflexes, If I am pushed or grabbed or I intercepts an incoming punch you do not have time to think what is this attack and how do I respond. You just respond. Chi Sao is used to remove thinking from the equation.
You don't try to remain in arm contact. The goal of forward intent is to hit. If I am not obstructed I hit. Chi sao teaches how to clear a path to hit if your path is obstructed.

There are no blocks in wing chun. Chi sao will also teach you how to cover your exposed areas. part of that is learning movement how to move and where to move. One reason you move to the outside, side body, instead of up the middle is to use the opponents body to help block hooking movement from one side. The best way to stop a punch is not to be there. that is why footwork is so important. That is why people in the videos I posted to start the thread have so many problems. Non of them are using WC footwork. Triangle step,circle step, shifting step.sinking step etc and shifting are designed to help you change your angle and points of contact as well as change your head position.

Of course no matter what you do sometimes you get hit. Some one that spends time training their art be it boxing or what ever will get in their stuff. The key to getting hit is to be in a position where you don't absorb the full power of the strike which gets back to movement and position and covering or obstructing the open space.

This is our WC others may differ.
 

yak sao

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I can only speak for the WC Leung Jan passed to Lo Kwai. As others have noted circular techniques exist across a wide range of WC styles.

Sticky hand is not for fighting per se. The goal of Chi Sao for us is to learn to react to an opponents energy with out thinking. In other words to build reflexes, If I am pushed or grabbed or I intercepts an incoming punch you do not have time to think what is this attack and how do I respond. You just respond. Chi Sao is used to remove thinking from the equation.
You don't try to remain in arm contact. The goal of forward intent is to hit. If I am not obstructed I hit. Chi sao teaches how to clear a path to hit if your path is obstructed.

There are no blocks in wing chun. Chi sao will also teach you how to cover your exposed areas. part of that is learning movement how to move and where to move. One reason you move to the outside, side body, instead of up the middle is to use the opponents body to help block hooking movement from one side. The best way to stop a punch is not to be there. that is why footwork is so important. That is why people in the videos I posted to start the thread have so many problems. Non of them are using WC footwork. Triangle step,circle step, shifting step.sinking step etc and shifting are designed to help you change your angle and points of contact as well as change your head position.

Of course no matter what you do sometimes you get hit. Some one that spends time training their art be it boxing or what ever will get in their stuff. The key to getting hit is to be in a position where you don't absorb the full power of the strike which gets back to movement and position and covering or obstructing the open space.

This is our WC others may differ.

What he said :)
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Sticky hand is not for fighting per se.
My question is can WC sticky hand training be able to help to handle the circular punch. Do WC guys use a different training to deal with this kind of punches? What training will that be?

mantis-hay-maker.gif
 

Danny T

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In my wing chun training; yes we do. We do so in other drills but not withing the chi sao platform. Chi Sao is but one (1) drilling platform there is far more to wing chun than chi sao.
 

wckf92

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My question is can WC sticky hand training be able to help to handle the circular punch. Do WC guys use a different training to deal with this kind of punches? What training will that be?

mantis-hay-maker.gif
San sik
 

Danny T

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While there are pros to this type of repetition exercising there many cons a well. No sense of distancing, timing, pressure. 2 Person drills help but one also needs to work against another who is being non telegraphic and unpredictable as well as using pressure and speed.
 

Jens

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Triangle step,circle step, shifting step.sinking step etc and shifting are designed to help you change your angle and points of contact as well as change your head position.

I am familiar with Triangle step and circle step, but what in the world is a "shifting step"? are you referring to Juen Ma (pivoting)?
 
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hunschuld

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I am familiar with Triangle step and circle step, but what in the world is a "shifting step"? are you referring to Juen Ma (pivoting)?
To be clear what I call shifting you call pivoting. Like beginning of Chum Kui double lan let right left. Shifting step is you are shifting as you move most common use is in place of an arrow step
 

EdwardA

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In regard to the idea of inside and outside...or small and large circles, that's exactly why in my third year of training I started in Tai Chi. Both the 108 movement form (for stucture and posture), but I concentrated a considerable time to Tai Chi push hands. A very natural combination....it's almost like WC was made to add to TC. Haha, ya'think?

I t wasn't real long before I found you could combine Chi Sao and the many forms Tai Chi's push hands.

For me it became a very encompassing form of sticky hands that made sense.
 
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EdwardA

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In regards to the OP's subject....I agree that instruction about attitude, ego and the idea of working as partners seems to be missing from many schools. When my sifu made me start taking control of classes I specified and worked with each individual to make sure they had to overcome their ego. You can push your partner, helping them to improve...at their pace, but trying to prove yourself at their expense helps no one.

Eventually, I gave up on schools completely for that reason. It seemed more common as time went by. Instead, I found individuals I could train that were willing to do it so we helped each other improve.
 

Jens

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To be clear what I call shifting you call pivoting. Like beginning of Chum Kui double lan let right left. Shifting step is you are shifting as you move most common use is in place of an arrow step

by "Shifting step" are you referring to shifting while slightly advancing one foot as in the stepping at the start of this clip? or the stepping which starts at 0:12 into the clip?

 
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hunschuld

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Both are versions. There are a couple more variations.
 

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