Bad Chi Sao has ruined WC as a fighting art!

Kung Fu Wang

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Wing chun sticking hand training doesn't have a plan, it has a process. A step by step process.
In Taiji push hand, when I push your arm, I will expect 2 responds.

1. Resist - When you try to use your force to against my force, I can borrow your force, change my push into a pull.
1. Yield - When you try to yield into my force, I can also borrow your force, change my push into more push.

The WC sticky hand may not function like the Taiji PH. You try to give your opponent limit amount of options. Whatever the option that your opponent may take, you have some follow up waiting for him.
 

Oily Dragon

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Wing chun sticking hand training doesn't have a plan, it has a process. A step by step process.

It has a prescription, which is easy to understand the moment you stick to an opponent and have to decide what to do next.

The natural tendency for many is to break, but the point is to learn to not break, more like how to coil around and crush an opponent.

That is the essence of southern Dragon style, after all, the third biggest influence to Wing Chun.
 

geezer

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It has a prescription, which is easy to understand the moment you stick to an opponent and have to decide what to do next. The natural tendency for many is to break...

Not sure what you mean by "break". Do you mean to "break free" and try to hit? To break structure (yours or theirs)? ...or something else?
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Not sure what you mean by "break". Do you mean to "break free" and try to hit? To break structure (yours or theirs)? ...or something else?
How do you train you want to touch your opponent's arm, but you don't want him to touch your arm?

In wrestling, you want to have one hand on your opponent, but you don't want your opponent's to have any hand on you. I believe this strategy fit the striking art as well.

sc-tearing.gif
 
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geezer

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How do you train you want to touch your opponent's arm, but you don't want him to touch your arm?
In wrestling, you want to have one hand on your opponent, but you don't want your opponent's to have any hand on you. I believe this strategy fit the striking art as well.

sc-tearing.gif

Perhaps, but for the most part Wing Chun, at least the Yip Man lineage "WT" I've trained, emphasized extending the limbs forward towards the opponent rater than grasping and pulling inward. Very different from grappling-focused arts.

So when using chi-sau as a training method, you make bridge contact, with your arms sticking and pressing forward, rather than grabbing and pulling inward. However, the objective is not to defensively stick and obstruct your opponent's attacking line. It is to open an attacking line and slip forward...allowing your hand to strike outward and hit your opponent. So we say that chi sau is not so much about sticking as slipping.

I wondered if this was what Oily Dragon meant when he used the word "break" in his previous post. Either way it's important to note that even when "slipping" you are still in contact with your opponent's arms and still controlling his position ...his arms, his "center" and better yet, his structure and center of gravity. Or at least that is the objective. Only once this is achieved would the WC practitioner want to consider finishing with a throw.
 

FinalStreet

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Bad Chi Sao but chi sao hasn't been transmitted well since Yip Man, so no suprise. :droid:
 

Oily Dragon

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Bad Chi Sao but chi sao hasn't been transmitted well since Yip Man, so no suprise. :droid:

How about bong sao? It's related to chi sao, and that is part of the problem.

People love to criticize instructors, but students can be so, so stupid.

They love to pass on their limited understanding.
 

Snark

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I think its a bit more than bad chi sau.

武術 is pronounced in modern mandarin as Wu shu but when pronounced in the Cantonese dialect (as are all wing chun terms and wing chun itself) it's Mo Seot.

There appears to be a rising trend for some sources to claim that all martial arts were traditionally and historically called Wu shu, including the southern arts.

This is incredibly unlikely.

In China there are a total of 11 languages, 64 dialects, 64 subdialects.

Mandarin was historically common but not overwhelmingly so and other languages including Cantonese were widely used.

The national language (Guoyu) based on mandarin with a Beijing dialect (including the Wu shu prononciation) was only decided to be the standard in 1913.

Further it wasn't until 1932 that a dictionary based on the Beijing Mandarin pronunciation (a particular dialect of mandarin) came about for use in schools.

So calling martial arts "Wu shu" would not have even been taught as standard until 1932 because mondern Mandarin in its current format did not even exist before this date.

As for the Wu shu art itself, its widely accepted that it was not organised into its current format until 1949, as a standardised state approved group of northern martial arts.

Why does this matter?

The Chinese Communist party during the cultural Revolution of 1966 to 1976 "firmly discouraged" martial arts and the traditional student sifu relationship. Wu shu was not targeted and so the discouragement was effectively a stamp down on southern styles not affiliated with the Wu shu programme.

However, because of economic migrants and the unexpected rise of Bruce Lee as an international movie star, the southern arts not only survived but thrived outside of China.

This popularity also lead to many poorly skilled students of wing chun ,who had emigrated and lost their assets and principal sources of income to teach it outside
China. This also encouraged a specialising in chi sau to avoid any display of the glaring holes in a poor practitioners ability in actual application.

Despite its popularity the independently taught and governed southern arts do not conform to the CCPs firm ideals of social harmony. So what course of action does the CCP have to address this?

The most obvious, easiest router requiring the least efforts isa smear campaign, to establish the southern arts as the primitive and backwards cousin of the cutting edge Wu shu programme. Like an early rough draft of Wu shu if you will, as opposed to something which evolved separately. The first step... it's all the same because it all called Wu shu.

When you look at the current state of Chinese martial arts this makes a lot of sense.

For example, it beggars belief that a character like Xu Xiaodong can upset the social harmony by targeting southern art practitioners without any reprisal or imprisonment... Especially in a country where people were imprisoned for uploading phone footage of someone collapsing in the street from covid.

Xu Xiaodong is not some plucky rebel in the hills or a criminal mastermind, he is clearly operating openly from his gym with state approval and his opponents are always carefully picked southern arts practitioners.

Further it comes as no surprise that the most successful practitioners in competitions, who utilise southern Chinese styles come from outside China like Qi La La or even Alan Orr's students.

Another issue with the quality of wing chun is because the southern arts are taught in a such a secretive manner, where not all students were historically taught equally and even the favoured ones may not be taught thoroughly until many, many years have passed and their character is deemed of worth. The excellent documentary "needle through brick" clearly illustrates the issues and commonality of this approach.


In conclusion, I think the issue with wing chun is not bad chi sau but rather the three elements of:

1) poorly skilled students widely teaching the art for many years.
2) the CCP promoting state Wu shu at the expense of the independent southern styles including wing chun.
3) the secretive nature of many teachers of the southern arts resulting in the loss of more complete curriculums and interest from younger generations.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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2 men free training drill exist in the southern CMA. It doesn't exist in most of the northern CMA. It's a valuable training tool that should be preserved and expanded.

Here is something similar to the WC sticky hand.

 

Kung Fu Wang

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IMO, this is the missing part of the WC sticky hand training.

- connect,
- disconnect,
- connect again,
- disconnect again,
- ...

Why is this important? This is how a real fight may look like.

Liao-wuchang-drill-1.gif
 

Oily Dragon

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IMO, this is the missing part of the WC sticky hand training.

- connect,
- disconnect,
- connect again,
- disconnect again,
- ...

Why is this important? This is how a real fight may look like.

Liao-wuchang-drill-1.gif

The tribble here is self-evident. Not a single punch at the face.
 

Cephalopod

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2 men free training drill exist in the southern CMA. It doesn't exist in most of the northern CMA. It's a valuable training tool that should be preserved and expanded.

Here is something similar to the WC sticky hand.


What a trip through memoryville!
Most of a lifetime ago, a visiting Cha Chuan sifu taught us this set as a conditioning drill. The arm contact in the first 16 seconds was a hard as we could take it, and the hip check at 0:28 was taught, in no uncertain terms, to launch our partner across the room. Being young adults, we had great fun crashing into each other...and ruefully limping around afterward with bruises all over our hips and arms.

Good times!

Thanks for posting KFW!
But, um, the similarities to chisao...I don't see em!
And FYI, good chisao training includes plenty of connnect-disconnect-connect etc. Otherwise, as Oily suggested, you get hit in the face.
 
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geezer

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This is wrong Bong.

wrong-Bong.gif
Sometimes "Wrong Bong" is necessary. It depends on the situation. Remember - at least in the lineage I learned, your opponent's force forms your defense. With the inside gate cross bong, or what some call "wrong bong" you just need to be aware of how dangerous it is and instantly move through it into an offensive technique.

Even with "normal" bong.... "Bong sau never stays!"
 

Kung Fu Wang

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"Bong sau never stays!"
The issue is not "stay" but "intend". When you detect my arm intend to use "wrong Bong", you back hand will move toward me, and help my elbow joint to raise higher.

For the "correct Bong", I don't have to worry about that because your other hand can't each to my elbow joint.
 
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geezer

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That could happen. And it could work.

Conversely, a typical defense to that grapple is punching straight through (over the "wrong bong" with the rear hand) simultaneously clearing the elbow and striking ...while your opponent is attempting to grab your elbow (committting his two hands to control one).

That can work too.
 
OP
H

hunschuld

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KFW said "IMO, this is the missing part of the WC sticky hand training.

- connect,
- disconnect,
- connect again,
- disconnect again,"

I agree that you don't see this but it is not missing. As Snark pointed out the problem is transmission not content.

While we have some different chi sao platforms focusing just on the standard Yip rolling our training is as follows.

no Bridge or search for the bridge--find or create Bridge-- cross bridge--- sink or destroy bridge

Cross bridge is standard chi sao . the bridge has already been made.

we then move up the forearm close to the elbow for sink the bridge training. This is training for throws ,sweeps,trips,Elbow's uppercuts ,whipping or hooking attacks. Moves designed to end the fight by placing person on the ground

Create the bridge. wrist to wrist. generally a distance where you need 2 moves to strike,learn how to stop opponent from running or break contact ,includes kicking

No contact. learn how to make contact.

we start training when the bridge is made for several reasons.This is the range that people are most unforgettable operating in yet it teaches you the most about balance,absorbing energy sinking and close body footwork among other things.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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Since circular punch such as hook, or hay-maker is not general used in the WC system, How to establish and remain arm contact by using the WC sticky hand when your opponent throw a hook punch at you?
 

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