Awesome Kung Fu Kick used in MMA

[Deleted member 34973]

Just my opinion, and only matters to me.

 

[drop bear]

Just my opinion, and only matters to me.

Yeah but deciding the effectiveness of something based on sport is about as applicable as basing it on the colour of a guys pants.

Running is very successful in a lot of sports. Do you discount that as a self defence application?

 

[Hanzou]

You have already seen me use successfully use the extreme kung fu stances during free sparring to defend against a possible shoot. I don't do mantis nor bagua so I can't help you there. I do Crane beak, but the one I practice is a groin strike so I can't use that during sparring (we don't spar with cups unless it's intense sparring). We already have Buka, Rampage Jackson complaining about kicks to the knee. I'm sure a Crane beak to the privates wouldn't be welcomed.

No offense, but free sparring in your swoon isn't a MMA match. Just like rolling in my Bjj gym isn't a MMA match. We're talking about MMA here, not general sparring. I would love to see the stuff you do and the more exotic aspects of CMA emerge within the MMA sphere. Unfortunately after 20+ years of active MMA in America and worldwide, they have yet to emerge.

Everyone doesn't look like this guy. If a TMA practitioner looks and performs like the sportive styles instead of the style that he trains then it's because that person doesn't train the techniques in a free sparring context. My sparring doesn't look like the sportive styles that you speak of. Out of all of the Martial Arts practitioners out there, I'm not the only one that trains the techniques in free sparring.

Then that must be fairly widespread within the traditional styles, because the vast majority of TMA practitioners are coming out looking like sloppy kick boxers when they get into competitive style vs style, or MMA matches.

 

[Hanzou]

Poor example.

Maybe you'd prefer an example straight from the motherland?

Which one is the mama guy and which is the Kung fu guy. They both look like crap.

They're both Kung Fu. One is supposed to be "legit" while the other is supposed to be a fraud.

Yes, they both look like crap, as does the two WC fighters above. An MMA fighter (even at amateur level) would decimate both sets of fighters.

Look, mama was designed for sport, and came from sport. Thats what it will always be. I have yet to see proper structure when an mma guy fights. Basically, its kickboxing with a lot of ground fighting and grappling added. Its nothing new.

Yes, and that combination (of what actually works) makes a brutally efficient and effective system of fighting. It's so effective that traditional styles have to find answers for it within their own system.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No offense, but free sparring in your swoon isn't a MMA match. Just like rolling in my Bjj gym isn't a MMA match. We're talking about MMA here, not general sparring.

No offense taken. If you can do it during quality free sparring half power and half speed then you'll be able do it at full intensity. I'll be honest with you, I find it easier to do CMA techniques at full speed than at 50% speed and 50% power. Every system does light free sparring including BJJ and they don't question their ability to do it at full speed. If you can't do a CMA technique at 50% speed-50%power during free sparring then there's no way that you'll be able to do it at full speed - full power - and high intensity. We see proof of this in Point Sparring where the participants aren't going full power and some aren't even going full speed.

Then that must be fairly widespread within the traditional styles, because the vast majority of TMA practitioners are coming out looking like sloppy kick boxers when they get into competitive style vs style, or MMA matches

Yes it's wide spread but that doesn't have anything to do with the validity of the fighting system. That's a fighter issue and an issue with his training or better yet a lack of it. I can't claim to be doing Jow Ga if I come out doing sloppy kickboxing because Jow Ga doesn't look like kick boxing. If it looks like I'm doing kick boxing then I'm not using Jow Ga techniques and the only techniques that can be legitimately discussed are my lack of Jow Ga ability and my sloppy kickboxing skills.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Maybe you'd prefer an example straight from the motherland?

They're both Kung Fu. One is supposed to be "legit" while the other is supposed to be a fraud.

Yes, they both look like crap, as does the two WC fighters above. An MMA fighter (even at amateur level) would decimate both sets of fighters.



Yes, and that combination (of what actually works) makes a brutally efficient and effective system of fighting. It's so effective that traditional styles have to find answers for it within their own system.

Not me, I would never degrade my ability with sport training. It only makes a brutal(half ***) sport. At least in my observation. I have no use for it. I believe it is, what it is, a sport.

By the way, the WWE looks a little more brutal. But hey, thats entertainment arts for you.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

Yeah but deciding the effectiveness of something based on sport is about as applicable as basing it on the colour of a guys pants.

Running is very successful in a lot of sports. Do you discount that as a self defence application?

Yes, its a training regiment. It can be applied to save your butt from a fire as well.

 

[Flying Crane]

No offense taken. If you can do it during quality free sparring half power and half speed then you'll be able do it at full intensity. I'll be honest with you, I find it easier to do CMA techniques at full speed than at 50% speed and 50% power. Every system does light free sparring including BJJ and they don't question their ability to do it at full speed. If you can't do a CMA technique at 50% speed-50%power during free sparring then there's no way that you'll be able to do it at full speed - full power - and high intensity. We see proof of this in Point Sparring where the participants aren't going full power and some aren't even going full speed.

Yes it's wide spread but that doesn't have anything to do with the validity of the fighting system. That's a fighter issue and an issue with his training or better yet a lack of it. I can't claim to be doing Jow Ga if I come out doing sloppy kickboxing because Jow Ga doesn't look like kick boxing. If it looks like I'm doing kick boxing then I'm not using Jow Ga techniques and the only techniques that can be legitimately discussed are my lack of Jow Ga ability and my sloppy kickboxing skills.

I've got to say, I actually don't care what my white crane looks like in application, as long as I'm using the fundamental principles in my techniques.

I'm a proponent of: real life application usually does not look like what training looks like. This is because training often uses exaggerated movement in order to ingrain the principles into the technical mechanics. But once you have developed skill with the principles, then the exaggeration diminishes and goes away, and it can look like anything, or nothing, or even slop. As long as the principles are underneath and driving it, it doesn't matter. An educated eye can still see it. An inexperienced eye will not.

I know a lot of people feel that their kung fu ought to look a certain way. I agree in the context of training. I disagree in the context of application.

I also know that for a lot of people who do not train Kung fu, this is difficult or impossible to understand.

I also agree with you that I rarely see what I would consider to be optimal mechanics, in the (admittedly very little) MMA that I have watched (I find myself monumentally disinterested in it, and have only accidentally caught a few bouts on tv.). But that doesn't mean they cannot be effective. I've said many times here in the forums, you don't need perfect technique or high skill, or a superior system to hurt someone. Hurting someone is easy.

However, I do agree that mechanically, there is a lot of room for improvement with a lot of what happens in MMA.

 

[Hanzou]

No offense taken. If you can do it during quality free sparring half power and half speed then you'll be able do it at full intensity. I'll be honest with you, I find it easier to do CMA techniques at full speed than at 50% speed and 50% power. Every system does light free sparring including BJJ and they don't question their ability to do it at full speed. If you can't do a CMA technique at 50% speed-50%power during free sparring then there's no way that you'll be able to do it at full speed - full power - and high intensity. We see proof of this in Point Sparring where the participants aren't going full power and some aren't even going full speed.

This has little to do with full speed vs half speed. I'm talking about your training methodology to counter something specific versus someone whose entire training methodology revolves around that which you're trying to counter. Just because something works within the confines of free sparring doesn't mean that it's going to work against a trained martial artist trying to take your head off.

For example, I'm sure you guys are quite good at doing wrestling-style takedowns and what not, but I'd wager that someone training in MMA is far better at them than you are. Because of this, your spot training of TD defense is inferior to the MMA exponent's ability to take you down. This is especially the case since the MMA exponent's training demands that they have the practical knowledge to pull off effective takedowns.

BTW, your shortcoming is no different than us in Bjj defending against someone hitting us while we're in guard. Yeah, we train to defend against strikes in Guard, however, a MMA fighter is going to be better at hitting us while in Guard than we're going to be at defending against the strikes. Why? Because an integral part of MMA training is learning how to strike while in someone's Guard, while learning to defend yourself from strikes in Bjj is (sadly) an ancillary practice.

In Bjj we mainly counter takedowns and fighting off grapplers on top with the Guard. The Guard has been proven to be an effective counter to grapplers (and strikers) in MMA for decades.

A wide Kung Fu stance has not.

Yes it's wide spread but that doesn't have anything to do with the validity of the fighting system. That's a fighter issue and an issue with his training or better yet a lack of it. I can't claim to be doing Jow Ga if I come out doing sloppy kickboxing because Jow Ga doesn't look like kick boxing. If it looks like I'm doing kick boxing then I'm not using Jow Ga techniques and the only techniques that can be legitimately discussed are my lack of Jow Ga ability and my sloppy kickboxing skills.

Well again, we're only talking about the validity of the fighting system as it applies to MMA, not overall. The simple fact of the matter is that there is a stark absence of Chinese Martial Arts within MMA. There's plenty of reasons for this, but none of them are because CMAs are somehow "too deadly" for MMA, or can not be modified for sport fighting.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I've got to say, I actually don't care what my white crane looks like in application, as long as I'm using the fundamental principles in my techniques.

I'm a proponent of: real life application usually does not look like what training looks like. This is because training often uses exaggerated movement in order to ingrain the principles into the technical mechanics. But once you have developed skill with the principles, then the exaggeration diminishes and goes away, and it can look like anything, or nothing, or even slop. As long as the principles are underneath and driving it, it doesn't matter. An educated eye can still see it. An inexperienced eye will not.

I know a lot of people feel that their kung fu ought to look a certain way. I agree in the context of training. I disagree in the context of application.

I also know that for a lot of people who do not train Kung fu, this is difficult or impossible to understand.

I also agree with you that I rarely see what I would consider to be optimal mechanics, in the (admittedly very little) MMA that I have watched (I find myself monumentally disinterested in it, and have only accidentally caught a few bouts on tv.). But that doesn't mean they cannot be effective. I've said many times here in the forums, you don't need perfect technique or high skill, or a superior system to hurt someone. Hurting someone is easy.

However, I do agree that mechanically, there is a lot of room for improvement with a lot of what happens in MMA.

if you train white crane application in free sparring then it will look like what you train and you fellow classmates will not only see the technique they will recognize that it's found in there form. Karate looks like karate, boxing looks like boxing, muay thai looks like muay thai. White crane will look like white crane. If it doesn't then you aren't doing white crane.

If train to do sprints then you'll look it when you do sprint. the only difference as far as kungfu application is that it's not exaggerated.

 

[Hanzou]

if you train white crane application in free sparring then it will look like what you train and you fellow classmates will not only see the technique they will recognize that it's found in there form. Karate looks like karate, boxing looks like boxing, muay thai looks like muay thai. White crane will look like white crane. If it doesn't then you aren't doing white crane.

If train to do sprints then you'll look it when you do sprint. the only difference as far as kungfu application is that it's not exaggerated.

Just a case in point:

I'll let the Kung Fu people determine whether that's a display of good CMA technique or not.

To me, it doesn't look very impressive.

 

[Flying Crane]

if you train white crane application in free sparring then it will look like what you train and you fellow classmates will not only see the technique they will recognize that it's found in there form. Karate looks like karate, boxing looks like boxing, muay thai looks like muay thai. White crane will look like white crane. If it doesn't then you aren't doing white crane.

If train to do sprints then you'll look it when you do sprint. the only difference as far as kungfu application is that it's not exaggerated.

if technique is being driven with the proper principles, then that part looks like white crane. Outside of that, in terms of the large movement it very well should not. But it most definitely is white crane.

Except for some exceptional circumstances, to try and apply white crane technique in a fight in the same manner it is done in training is quite a bad idea.

 

[Flying Crane]

Just a case in point:

I'll let the Kung Fu people determine whether that's a display of good CMA technique or not.

To me, it doesn't look very impressive.

This is actually an example of exactly what I was talking about. His punching relied upon the principles, but did not look like punching done in training. I could see the principles in action, while the shape of the technique was modified from the training method. Exactly what I was talking about.

There were times when he did a better job of holding it together, and that was when he was dominant in the match. There were other times when he abandoned his principles, ignored his root and swung from the shoulders instread of from the feet, and that is when he became susceptible to the other guys quick shots.

I was more impressed with this than I expected to be. But I also know what I am looking at. CLFSEAN might have the background to understand it as well, since he trains in a sister method to white crane, but I doubt anyone else here would. It's a rare system. At any rate, the kid has potential.

Whether or not you are impressed with it is immaterial.

 

[Hanzou]

This is actually an example of exactly what I was talking about. His punching relied upon the principles, but did not look like punching done in training. I could see the principles in action, while the shape of the technique was modified from the training method. Exactly what I was talking about.

There were times when he did a better job of holding it together, and that was when he was dominant in the match. There were other times when he abandoned his principles, ignored his root and swung from the shoulders instread of from the feet, and that is when he became susceptible to the other guys quick shots.

I was more impressed with this than I expected to be. But I also know what I am looking at. CLFSEAN might have the background to understand it as well, since he trains in a sister method to white crane, but I doubt anyone else here would. It's a rare system. At any rate, the kid has potential.

Whether or not you are impressed with it is immaterial.

You think any of that was based on sound fighting principles?

Interesting.

Anyway, the point is that that fighting display is a far cry from this;

Or this;

It looked like a broken form of kickboxing.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm talking about your training methodology to counter something specific versus someone whose entire training methodology revolves around that which you're trying to counter. Just because something works within the confines of free sparring doesn't mean that it's going to work against a trained martial artist trying to take your head off.

If all this was true then no body would practice boxing, MMA, swimming, tennis, basketball, baseball or any other sport. Just because something works in practice with in the confines of practice doesn't mean that it's going to work in the game. If that's true then why bother practice. You might as well just stop training BJJ.

I'm sure you guys are quite good at doing wrestling-style takedowns and what not, but I'd wager that someone training in MMA is far better at them than you are.

I don't do wrestling, I do Jow Ga and as far as I know, there are no MMA fighters that take Jow Ga so they aren't going to be able to do Jow Ga techniques better than I can. They can't be good in a system they don't train. As for the take downs that we do in the school they aren't wrestling-style takedowns.

Just because Anderson Silva is good in MMA doesn't mean he's can do Wing Chun better than a wing chun practitioner.

Because of this, your spot training of TD defense is inferior to the MMA exponent's ability to take you down

This is also an assumption that MMA is superior to other things.

A wide Kung Fu stance has not

I've shown a video of me using a wide kung fu stance to successfully prevent take downs. I used it against a BJJ practitioner and he looked puzzled because no one had ever used a wide stance against him to prevent the take down. During that time we literally told him. "Show me how you would take me down." He got low, I got lower, when he raised his stance I raised my but always at a point where I was lower. His statement was that he couldn't do the takedown that he planned on using on me because of the height of my stance.

 

[JowGaWolf]

His punching relied upon the principles, but did not look like punching done in training. I could see the principles in action, while the shape of the technique was modified from the training method.

This is what I was talking about as well. What you train in free sparring is how it will look in application It was something you recognized. It didn't look anything like Jow Ga. The only thing I could pickout in terms of kung fu was the loss of structure that you pointed out.

One of the techniques (that walking shuffle punch combo) looks similar to one of the techniques that in Jow Ga has, I don't know what the function of it in White Crane but for Jow Ga our similar technique is a close quarters technique and not a chase down technique.

The thing I like the video is that he's actually trying to learn how to use Kung Fu techniques (that's how everyone looks when learning how to correctly apply techniques in free sparring) and as long as he keeps trying he'll figure out when is the best time to use that technique. His stance was also better in comparison to his opponent. Had sweeping been allowed and if he knows how to sweep correctly, then his opponent would have taken more than one trip to the ground. This is what a person looks like when they are learning how to use Kung Fu

The guy below is definitely not using kung fu. He definitely didn't look like basic kickboxing. The difference is clear to see when I look at this guy from the same school (I assume)

 

[Deleted member 34973]

I've shown a video of me using a wide kung fu stance to successfully prevent take downs. I used it against a BJJ practitioner and he looked puzzled because no one had ever used a wide stance against him to prevent the take down. During that time we literally told him. "Show me how you would take me down." He got low, I got lower, when he raised his stance I raised my but always at a point where I was lower. His statement was that he couldn't do the takedown that he planned on using on me because of the height of my stance.

Well said and I don't believe many mma practioners understand that experience in traditional arts, teach exactly these concepts.

It is also interesting to note, that Hanzou, is pointing out a subject that exist in all arts, techniques never look the same in combat as they do in practice yet doesn't seem to understand that mma, is quilty of this as well.

I think it brings up the point, that it always depends on the individual and not the art.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

We simply gravitate towards that which makes us feel safe.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You think any of that was based on sound fighting principles?

Interesting.

Anyway, the point is that that fighting display is a far cry from this;

Or this;

It looked like a broken form of kickboxing.

If I had to guess I would say that you picked the wrong technique. you have to look for a the technique that has that shuffle walk and then compare that.

Then you showed Jake Mace who is not the best person to use to show kung applications.

 

[JowGaWolf]

We simply gravitate towards that which makes us feel safe.

Very true