- Feb 18, 2008
- Reaction score
- Melbourne, Australia
Oh, no, your post didn't come off that way at all. Daito Ryu is something I've had an arm chair interest in for a while, myself. I am aware of the controversy surrounding its history and am a bit of a sceptic as to its claims of antiquity. That being said, I'd love it if there was a dojo or study group within driving distance of where I am located. I'd love to train in it some time.
Agreed. There are a couple of groups in Australia, notably in my home state, but with everything else on my plate it'd be a bit too much... then again, if I heard of a seminar happening nearby....
I was aware of his training in Ono-ha Itto Ryu and that his father knew sumo, but not that there were claims about Hozoin Ryu or Jikishinkage Ryu. I'd be interested in knowing if anyone sees any influences from these styles on Sokaku's techniques. Do you know if Daito Ryu includes spear techniques in its syllabus?
I know that Takeda is said to have taught some sojutsu, and have heard stories about it being trained with at a high level (whether that is actually learning sojutsu, or training using a spear in some other fashion, is not confirmed for me yet, though). Another Ryu that I've had some experience in also claims to train in spear at a high level, but they don't have any kata for it, so it's used more as an extension of other principles and methods they have. My feeling is that Daito Ryu is the same.
Wait, are you saying Daito Ryu claims to be from Yoshitsune, or just from the 12th century? I mean, being taught kenjutsu by Sojobo is pretty impressive and all but I thought I had read that Daito Ryu claims to go back even further than that (A.D. 900, perhaps?).
Yep, the old stories have Yoshitsune as the founder of the Ryu. I've also heard earlier dates, but no other founder mentioned. Then again, the practice of including famous figures in the history of your art isn't really unusual, or uncommon in Japanese arts. There's probably a dozen schools all said to have been founded by Bokuden Tsukahara, for instance.
This is one of the main reasons why I am more than a bit sceptical about Daito Ryu's official history. It would certainly be unique amongst koryu, as far as my limited understanding goes, if it was in fact that old.
Yeah, it would basically scream that what was originally there was all gone, and the current ideas (the unarmed methods primarily) are not anywhere near as old as the system claims. Add to that the fact that the dominant aspect of weaponry these days is not from Daito Ryu itself, but from Ono-ha Itto Ryu, further removes it from being an old lineage.
Given the Japanese predeliction for leaving a paper trail when it comes to things like this, do you know if Sokaku had licenses from anyone specifically in Daito Ryu (as opposed to Ono-ha Itto Ryu)?
As the name doesn't appear to have been used before Takeda, I'm going to say no.
Interesting, thanks. I don't know much about sumo but I'd be very interested in seeing how it relates to Daito Ryu, both philosophically and technically. The link to swordsmanship I have seen. There is video of Katsuyuki Kondo showing the relationship between kenjutsu and jujutsu which is pretty interesting, as well as aikido techniques being described as "cut down with your hands as if with a sword" by Rinjiro Shirata. But going from a sword-based system to an unarmed system using sword strategy is impressive, to say the least. You have to have an amazing insight on things to see more than a basic connection, IMNSHO.
Honestly, I don't see a lot of sumo in Daito Ryu. A lot more Asayama Ichiden Ryu, really. Agreed on needing to have an amazing amount of insight as well, for the level that Daito Ryu manages. That said, taking sword techniques and making them the basis for unarmed methods isn't that hard. I've done it with some koryu kenjutsu I train in, applying it as unarmed against a knife, or unarmed against unarmed from time to time. Additionally, I'm currently teaching from one of our systems known as Kukishinden Ryu, and their unarmed methods are interesting in that they don't have any muto dori (unarmed against a weapon). Except they do. They're found in the schools methods of short sword and jutte. Fun stuff, really.
For the record, here's a very good example showing the "sword-based" attacks in Daito Ryu, from Takeda Tokimune.
And, if you're interested, this is a small example of the form of Asayama Ichiden Ryu that I'm talking about. As I said, they share a similar location, which can explain similarities in a number of ways. This Ryu dates from the early 17th Century (although some versions of the story have it a bit earlier). Not my favourite video, but there's not a lot of footage of this line available online...
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