arrogant and inexperience

[thekuntawman]

some of these people argue with people who knows more than they do because they think there teacher, remy presas knows more or is better than some little skinny young punk from the philippines. then you find out, he only saw his teacher 5 times a year, how can you have a lot of respect for that? my philosophy for respect was different then, i respected first, and got more later, or lost it later.

back to modern arnis, i study modern arnis, presas style for two years in the PI in ARJUKEN. when i came back to the US one of my good friends billy bryant showed me the "difference" of remy to ernesto's style. i didnt see much except remy likes stick to stick patterns, and ernesto like sparring. the basics are the same, but the philosophy in those days different. ernesto is not going to give a black belt unless you travel to him and train for a long time with him in his school remy travels to you, and will give the certificate faster. but for art, as somebody who knows up to black belt from both men, its the same. i dont know about tapi tapi, because i didnt see it yet.

you know i will have to go back and read the posting again because i forgot what i wanted to write.

 

[thekuntawman]

oh yeah, the reason i already gave it, that the presas kids didnt get much respect. but here is another one:

you dont know your dad's system like i do. you didnt train with him in the last 10 years, i dont think.

do you really think remy presas is going to leave his kids with average skills, and train them like he train everybody else, a few seminars a year and a camp??? no, i guarantee you they spent daily time with him, and when i met remy jr. i can see it in his movement, that he trained every day when he is learning. sorry, but you can look at someone and tell did he learn in seminar or in daily training. i disagree that you know modern arnis better because you knowed the new addition to the system. his root is the same, and some people have a stronger root than another, no matter how many leaves you see. men like dan, mr barber and mr inocallah, who have long time in modern arnis can probably show these new tapi tapi people a thing or two about modern arnis because of a longer root in the system. my thing is, remy jr will probably give you this better because he know his dad longer and have more time with him than anyone here.

sitting at bedside in death cannot add up to a lifetime of knowledge. you respect your senior even if you think your better in skills than he is, not all knowledge can be seen on a stupid video or a damn demonstration.

 

[thekuntawman]

i am sorry, this computer keeps throwing me out, and i forget what i wanted to say.

anyway, about arrogance. boasting is very common to filipino teachers. this is how we get the philippine martial arts today, that some teachers feel they have the best style, and there is only one way to see who is best. but you have your quiet killers, and your loudmouth ones.

today is not considered cool to say "my style is the best" but you will find many who will still do it, maybe behind closed doors, but they do it. you will also find it in the attitudes of the teachers. i consider this a good thing, because its keeps people on his toes, and the ones who are secretly afraid they are not as good either shut up, or they becomes enemy of the ones they wanted to be ("FMA doesnt work/ is not practical/ i improved it"). the rivalry is good, because this is how our old teachers got a chance to prove himself, and improve his styles.

the conflict or argue ment is good because it helps us get a thick skin, and not to get our feelings hurt easily, as i see many "FMA" teachers today have this kind of softness.

but dont confuse softness with humbleness. some of these humble men will hurt you. remy jr is very humble, but he is very good with his stick. also, dont confuse loud mouth with arrogance or ignorance. many loud mouth man can back themself up, they get many opportnity to prove themself.

when remy died, i am sure people came to remy jr, and ernesto, to say, you should take remys organization, they needed a leader. on bladeforums, i made one posting, title "advice for our modern arnis brothers". people got all mad and stuff, like who do i thing i am, i dont know modern arnis. but i know martial arts culture, and i know inexperience young teachers when i see it. 15 years in the martial arts is not a lot, trust me.

anyway, my uncle said to ernesto presas last year, to take over as modern arnis grandmaster in the US. i forgot what he said to my uncle, but i think it was something like, those people would never take that. so now, he is building another organization here, when those style is so similar to each other. remy jr, wanted to offer his knowledge, but you know, people are so high nose and all, saying i know remy and his style better than you, who are you? dont you know that the son of the "GM" will be the new GM in most style? and if there is somone better fighter than him, you accept his leadership, or break away, unless remy said "this guy will be the new leader". i didnt get to write remy jr, but i will probably do it tonight, i am sure he is suprised how different people are to him. he might have a lot to show you people, but you are not going to get much in one seminar or one demo, or one video. the heart of a martial art comes from being with your teacher day after day for a long time. who can say they have that except the ones who study with remy when he was in one place for a long time? my OPINION is, either the pilipino students, or his own son.

where i grew up, any parent can tell another persons kid, hey straighten up, when his parents are not there. martial arts teachers should be this way around even another teachers students. but even one teacher to another, who has more expereince than another, shouldnt be afraid to say, hey, my opinion is...

but to answer somebody question, i dont get offended. and i am not insulted. and i am not a flower smeller, so i talk to another martial artist how i talk to everyone else. maybe some people dont like me, but if you listen, you might hear me.

 

[Cruentus]

my OPINION is, either the pilipino students, or his own son.

Ahhhh..............so it's a racial thing. Gee, I sure hope not, because I have seen this racial thing before second hand. When Datu Hartman was promoted to "Datu" he got hammered on eskrima digest for recieving the title as a non-filipino. He also was challanged to a knife fight when he recieved the Punong Guro title in Germany, because he was not Filipino. These are just a few examples off the top of my head.

Racial things can get ugly. Professor Presas spent a lot of time here in the States, and there are plenty of non-Filipino's who had studied with him for a long time, whether it be in one place, or all the places they would travel to meet with him. And no, I am not refering to your average seminar Junkie who saw him twice a year between BJJ/Sambo and JKD Seminars, while running a Karate school at the same time. I'm talking about devoted students who put in their time. Shouldn't these people be considered as well?

His devoted students in the Philippines missed a quarter of a century of training with the man. This doesn't mean that they aren't good arnisadors, but it does mean that they missed a quarter of a century of progression with the art. Should they be the next GM or successor of "Modern Arnis." Not when their interpretation of the art is a quarter of a century behind. Could they be a master in their own right? Well, that depends on them. But sole heirs to the system...I think not!

Well how about all of Remy Presas' children then. If we are going to keep it traditional, and let the sole heirs to the art be the ones with the last name, then that would make 2 of his other children that no body ever seems to talk about (Renia and Joseph, both under 10 years old, I believe). Maybe we should crown them GM as well, while we're at it.

Doesn't sound so good, does it? How about we go with the recomendation of the Filipino government, then, who named Marppio the heirs to Modern Arnis. Oh wait....could this be the SAME Filipino Government that made Professor Flee for his life, which was brought him to america in the first place? Gee, I think it might be. O.K.....different leader, but same system, and same government. It might as well be the same leader. If we take this route, then we maybe we should get a recomendation from Narriphil (sp??) while we're at it.

No, not that solution? Well maybe we'll look at the will and trust and decide who should be the sole heirs based off of that. Wait a second....Remy Presas' children aren't even MENTIONED in the will. Uh oh...we'd better take on a differen't strategy, and quick, before people start to notice.

Maybe, then, we'll recommend an heir of the art based on general leadership and recognition by Remy, while Remy was alive. Surely that should do the trick. But wait a second....I've been in the system since 1990....and I didn't hear about Professor's children as students or teachers of Modern Arnis at all during that time while Professor was alive. But hey, I'm inexperienced (and sometimes arrogent...heh....), so perhaps with my world view being so small, and in my ignorance, they have been training with Professor, but I have missed it. Well, when I asked friends from other parts of the country, it seems that it isn't just me. NOBODY has seen them around in the 90's training with their father. O.K......so they missed the 90's. No big deal, right? Maybe they trained in the 80's with professor. Asked around.....nope, they sure didn't.

O.K. here is a side bar. when I first rekindled my communication with Datu Hartman after Professors death, I had asked about MARPPIO. Hell, I didn't even know Professors kids even lived in the states still. I just hadn't heard anything about them. So I asked Tim about the family. Tim said that he knew them a little bit, and he had stayed with them before. When I asked about their experience in Modern Arnis, and why I hadn't heard of them while Professor was alive, he had said that they (the children) told him that they hadn't had anything to do with their fathers art since he brought them over in 1980. This is the truth, and it came from Marppio, and hopefully Datu Hartman won't B**ch slap me for saying so.

I could continue, but the point is, Kuntawman, you really don't know what the hell you are talking about. The dynamics of the situation, and the political arena of Modern Arnis is too complex for you're limited knowledge of the situation. I am not refering to your knowledge of FMA, of Filipino culture, but the situation. Period. For the record, also, I didn't want to have to throw this in your face, but you have kinda forced it out of me with your statements.


A Note on The Presas Children: I will give credit where credit is due, also. The Presas Children had done wonderful things for the art in the philippines, and I am sure learned a lot while Professor was in the philippines. They had put significant time and training in during that time. There are other students of the art who stayed in the philippines, such as Rodel Dagooc (From my understanding) and taught and propigated the art, and made it their own. Others who had been there in the beginning, such as Roland Dantes for instance, propigated MA in other areas of the world, such as Australia, I believe.

The point is, all these people may have something to offer, and are our brothers in the art. They are all worth seeing, even if it is only once. Should any of these people be crowned heir to Professors system, while having missed 20 years or more of progression of the art. No they shouldn't. Not unless they can prove that even thought they missed this progression, that they are still the kings of the modern arnis mountain though their skills.
Until that happends indefinatily, don't count on any of these people being recognized as such by the majority.

Kuntawman...want to know what Demetrio had said to me over the phone? He had told me to not worry about all the "successorship" and "Grandmaster" stuff. We are all successors, for we all hold modern arnis in our hearts. Not bad advise. I was very impressed by that statement. I think you should realize that Marppio is out there to teach what they know, not to claim Successorship, or to take away from the students who have been around since Professor lived in america. So, you shouldn't try to take away from these American students either. And by doing so, I don't think your helping Marppio at all.

Also, to Marppio: I am sorry to bring up so much dirt. I may have inadvertently offended you. That is not my intention. My intention, rather, is to put everyone who is a "successor" of the art in their own right, with the art in their heart, on an equal playing feild. I feel that the Kuntawman had not done this, but rather in his ignorance unfairly elivated some, while unfairly downplaying others.

Also everyone....sorry for the long post. That is what happends, unfortunatily, when I get pissed off. :soapbox:

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by arnisador
Yes, Mr. Hartman has always looked for a way to communicate to people that Modern Arnis is more than just stick-on-stick fighting, as some think--it also includes empty hand techniques. There is perhaps the possibility of a misunderstanding either way one goes!

You have missed the point of the comment in terms of the context of the total discussion.

More will be spelled out in a reply to Renegade.

You also wrote as the title:

"Re: Kuntao ("Ken Po" or more loosely "Kung Fu")"

Not quite accurate: kenpo/kempo is Japanese translation of the Chinese word "chu'an fa" and both are translated into English as "fist law" or "law of the fist". Kuntao actually translate into English as "China Way" or "Way of China" and was derived from an Indonesian language then later spelled "kuntaw" in some parts of the Philippines. It does not even "loosely" translate as "kung or gong fu". There is a good deal of Chinese martial arts in Kuntao, particularly as practiced in Indonesia, Malaysia and the Southern Philippines, however the Kuntaw style could be either a Chinese variant of the internal arts or it could be a variant of Shotokan.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Renegade
For the record the organization name was never Arnis de Mano - Kuntao Sikaran, it was the Can-Am chapter of the IMAF. This is found here, http://web.archive.org/web/20000303101456/http://www.wmarnis.com/

The name was used for my school cirriculum. This was used for in school belt promotions and was NEVER used as an organization.

Respectfully
Tim Hartman

:asian:

Let me make this comment, Tim, because we are in a bit of a disagreement. I hosted two seminars for you in 1992 and 1993 and the logos that YOU provided had the names Anis de Mano - Arnis Kuntao and in 1993 the logo titles words were Arnis de Mano - Arnis Sikaran. There was nothing mentioned about Can-Am Chapter of the IMAF! If you had provided that information it would have been published as such, even if the words did not appear on the logo!

In addition I have one of your business cards with each of the above titles in place under your name. On the web site you have one thing but it is not consistant with what you had on your business card. I am well aware that your cards changed over time but what I posted was factual and correct.

Renegade, also wrote:
Actually I used the word KUNTAO as suggested by Dr. Barber.

Correct and thanks for the acknowledgement. BTW, I assume the part that I got half right from your perspctive was regarding the Arnis de Mano - Kuntao Arnis title. I passed the idea along frorm Professor, who had suggested that I use the term when I founded the "Western New York Modern Arnis Associates" in 1989. He was aware of the fact that Kuntao was taught in the Philippines and it would have, in his opinion, been acceptable to use the term to indicate that I taught an empty hand art in conjuction to my stick arts. I decided against using the term because I did not have any instruction in the art AND I had a perfect companion art to arnis in my Tracy Kenpo.

Which now brings us to the critical point - you misunderstood what I wrote to Paul and took my comments entirely out of context. Paul made several assumptions based on the screen name "Kuntawman". The point that I was making for his consideration was that there is a kuntao segmant of the WMAA curriculum AND if someone were to focus on that they would have a distorted and incomplete understanding of the curriculum as well as what Paul (WMAA) actually teaches.

To spell it out a bit more given your comments and those of Arnisador, some people could assume that you and the WMAA instructors have trained in and use the Kuntao Silat arts of the Philippines or Indonesia. You do not! But reading the curriculum information does not clearly indicate that fact. Someone might ask a WMAA instructor to show their juru #1 or their lankas. Your system does not contain instruction in either. So is it misleading to use that term? Perhaps! Could there be misunderstandings? Yes?

Because we have talked and discussed some curriculum matters in the past, I am well aware that "Kuntao" in your organizational context is a belt requirement that refers to escapes from grabs,
use of joint-locks and throws. If memory serves, you have 33 techniques in that belt grouping.

In context, my message for Paul's consideration was, 'do not just focus on the screen name'! Nothing more and nothing less. Using an example that he is familiar with allows him to consider my point more critically. Don't get your knickers all in a knot, there was no intention to misrepresent you or your organization.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Cruentus]

In context, my message for Paul's consideration was, 'do not just focus on the screen name'!

Personally, My Knickers aren't in a knot over the use of the term Kuntao. I don't know about Arnisadors or Renegades...uh...knickers.

I do want to say that I had looked in Kuntawmans profile, and I based my posts off of the information I had available on his background that he presented in the profile, as well as based off of what he said in this thread, and other forums.

Just wanted to clarify, but I got your point.

Thx,
PAUL :asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by DoctorB
I hosted two seminars for you in 1992 and 1993 and the logos that YOU provided had the names Anis de Mano - Arnis Kuntao and in 1993 the logo titles words were Arnis de Mano - Arnis Sikaran. There was nothing mentioned about Can-Am Chapter of the IMAF! If you had provided that information it would have been published as such, even if the words did not appear on the logo!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

I'm on my way to Philly in the morning so I don't have much time.

The cards and logos were for my school, not an organization. Remy used the Arnis De Mano, Jornales the Sikaran. I taught both in my program so both were in the name. I NEVER had an organization until Remy had me do the Can-Am Chapter of the IMAF.

Respectfully,
Tim Hartman
:asian:

 

[Pappy Geo]

Quoted by Paul:

"Demetrio had said to me over the phone? He had told me to not worry about all the "successorship" and "Grandmaster" stuff. We are all successors, for we all hold modern arnis in our hearts."




That about sums up MARRPIO'S ideology the way I understand it from them also. They believe there is/was only one Grandmaster and that was Remy Sr.

Since the professor always projected Modern Arnis as the "Art within your Art" how can there be a pure Modern Arnis? With the Professor gone, the art dilutes as he was the evolutionist. When you adapted the art to your present foundation a new flavor evolved. Every Senior has a different flavor of Modern Arnis, are any more correct than the other? Just evolved differently to adapt to your foundation, your physical body limitations, how you were encouraged to develop by the Professor.

It appears Modern Arnis has blended differently across the world, was it ever a "pure" system even when the Professor was alive? I guarantee you, every Datu and Sr, will do the forms and practice the system differently from each other.

Us Northwest guys will have a slightly different style than the Eastern US family, the Texas family, the German family and different from the Filipino Modern Arnis practioners. Marrpio has the same foundation as the rest of us from a different part of the world and time, they also have evolved along their path differently as each one of us has.

I Have spent time with the Presas family they are absolutely wonderful people, very sincere, extremely talented and actually both Remy Jr and Demetrio have separate specialty talents developed down different paths from each other. They have the right to claim the hertigage, they do not want to claim the "Grandmaster" title, with the heritgage they feel comes the responsibility to share their knowledge and continue down the path their father began. They are not interested in the politics only in sharing with and embracing Modern Arnis practitioners as family and I ask you this why not share with them what you have that they may not, make this a two way street for everybody's benefit?

Acknowledging what I have just discussed why not accept that we all may be a little different in our interpretation of modern Arnis but we are still in the same family? Share like mature family members not bicker like young siblings.

Pappy Geo

 

[arnisador]

I honestly am not sure where I stand on the issue of whether or not there ever was a pure Modern Arnis--surely if there was it changed with time--but one thing I would disagree with is that "Art within your Art" was the (main) reason why there wasn't. I think there were other reasons that were much more important--evolution and disorganization and the seminar teaching style, for example.

 

[thekuntawman]

"who can say they have that except the ones who study with remy when he was in one place for a long time? my OPINION is, either the pilipino students, or his own son."

this is has nothing to do with race. i am talking about people who train with remy presas when he taught in the same place, every day, for a long time. when you study with someone a few times a year, and maybe one week camp or something, you cannot get what you will get from a few years or even ONE year of training full time with a martial art teacher. well, you have to get study for a much longer time than what you are comparing to.

let me ask a question, how long did remy presas go without HIS teacher? probably a long time. after a point you do not need to be fed your information. i dont believe your going to get to that point in a few years when you study only a few times a year. so am i talking about people who learn here in the US with mr presas? yes i am. study in the seminar, and it will take you probably 10 times longer to achieve the level you will get when you train full time. but i am not talking about race, i am talking about time in training, and commitment. ernesto presas has some committed students, because they came to the philippines to study with him for 1, 2 months, and sometimes two or three times a year. how many people who go to these seminars can say the martial art is that important to them? how about one guy, from texas, who stayed in the philippines for one year just to learn arnis, you cannot compare his commitment level to the one of a seminar goer. pissed off? good. its true. my only point about the pilipino students is they will have a look into the arnis art that a seminar goer cannot get in his study, and he should not shut out these people because the miss the last 20 years or whatever.

now my point about remy junior is he is a connection to remy senior. if you dont like him, dont. but you cannot say you love remy and reject his son. and for his art, if you dont see what he has to offer you will miss something. if you dont want to that is fine to, because it doesnt change my life.

i am only offering advice, those who dont want it just dont take it.

remy jr is only offering information. those dont want that information, dont take that either. but if you disrespect him in public dont get mad when you raised the eyebrow of people who "don't know what the hell they are talking about."

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by PAUL
Personally, My Knickers aren't in a knot over the use of the term Kuntao. I don't know about Arnisadors or Renegades...uh...knickers.

I do want to say that I had looked in Kuntawmans profile, and I based my posts off of the information I had available on his background that he presented in the profile, as well as based off of what he said in this thread, and other forums.

Just wanted to clarify, but I got your point.

Thx,
PAUL :asian:

Hello Paul,

Yeah, knickers... and I know that you got my point, that's why I dropped out of the thread and let you and Kuntawman continue the discussion as it would develop between the two of you. On the other hand, Renegade's presentation of what was or was not an organization vs. a school name or curriculum, while very clear in his mind was not as clear to others including myself, because of his business cards and two school names that he used at different times, both before and during the run of the Can-Am Chapter of the IMAF.

Thanks for making sure that I understood that you got my point and accepting the invitation to lunch at the WMAA Camp.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Renegade
I'm on my way to Philly in the morning so I don't have much time.

The cards and logos were for my school, not an organization. Remy used the Arnis De Mano, Jornales the Sikaran. I taught both in my program so both were in the name. I NEVER had an organization until Remy had me do the Can-Am Chapter of the IMAF.

Respectfully,
Tim Hartman
:asian:

I can accept what you have posted, however the failure to have a clear presentation on your former business cards and the fact that you have also used both "Horizion Martial Arts" and "Western NY Institute of Martail Arts" as school names - both of which were used in the Yellow Pages of the phone book, just further muddies the waters. Just drop the whole thing, Tim, it is in the past, your presentations of school vs. organization vs. business names were not very clear in the 1990's, except to you and a few close associates.

The WMAA as the organization and your re-establishment of "Horizion Martial Arts" as a school name are much cleaner and easily understood.

Paul understand my point about "kuntao" and there is no need to take this diversionary discussion any further. It is done!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[ARNIS PRINCESS]

Originally posted by DoctorB
I can accept what you have posted, however the failure to have a clear presentation on your former business cards and the fact that you have also used both "Horizion Martial Arts" and "Western NY Institute of Martail Arts" as school names - both of which were used in the Yellow Pages of the phone book, just further muddies the waters. Just drop the whole thing, Tim, it is in the past, your presentations of school vs. organization vs. business names were not very clear in the 1990's, except to you and a few close associates.

The WMAA as the organization and your re-establishment of "Horizion Martial Arts" as a school name are much cleaner and easily understood.

Paul understand my point about "kuntao" and there is no need to take this diversionary discussion any further. It is done!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Dr. Barber-

What is your problem?! YOU started this whole bit about organization vs curriculum names, and when Mr. Hartman gives his explanation about his use of the term "kuntao", YOU decide ..there is no need to take this diversionary discussion any further. It is done! Who named you "Organization/Curriculum/Business Card Police"? I also have Mr. Hartman's business cards. Did you happen to mention that his business card also states "International Modern Arnis Federation"? Just because someone puts a logo on their card, does not mean that it is "their" organization. Case in point, I also have a card from Punong Guro Doug Pierre. There are two logos - GrandMaster Remy A. Presas Modern Arnis logo and Modern Arnis Domog logo. Is "GrandMaster Remy A. Presas Modern Arnis" Mr. Pierre's organization - or does he just teach Modern Arnis? Is Modern Arnis Domog an organization? Or is it a school? Or is it just a curriculum? Not very clear - is it?

As for the name of Mr. Hartman's school changing....you are obviously not a businessman. Dissolution of partnerships is a daily occurance. Unless agreed upon, a business name cannot be used after a partnership is dissolved. And I am sure we both can name many businesses that have changed their name for whatever the reason.

It is amusing to see you tell Mr. Hartman ...there is no need to take this diversionary discussion any further. It appeared that Mr. Hartman was only trying to clarify a misstatement on your part. Unfortunately, when the discussion started going against you, you decide it was "diversionary".

I would consider "diversionary" - mentioning YOUR symposium on every thread you can possibly sneak it into.

And speaking of your symposium, you have already lost the Presas Family, Kelly Worden and Dan McConnell. Are you sure you want to risk losing another instructor due to your caustic remarks? I, myself, was looking forward to seeing Datu Worden and the Presas family. I am definitely rethinking my decision to attend the event.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Pappy Geo:
Since the professor always projected Modern Arnis as the "Art within your Art" how can there be a pure Modern Arnis?

The closest thing to a pure Modern Arnis was HIS performance of it, in my estimation.

With the Professor gone, the art dilutes as he was the evolutionist.

Not necessarily. He evolved it from a Filipino art (balintawak and what he learned from his family) and blended it with other arts, most notably karate and judo and later, small circle ju-jutsu. Are we not doing the same with the art, Kelly, Tim and I among others?

When you adapted the art to your present foundation a new flavor evolved.

Absolutely

Every Senior has a different flavor of Modern Arnis, are any more correct than the other? Just evolved differently to adapt to your foundation, your physical body limitations, how you were encouraged to develop by the Professor.

It appears Modern Arnis has blended differently across the world, was it ever a "pure" system even when the Professor was alive? I guarantee you, every Datu and Sr, will do the forms and practice the system differently from each other.

To quote Prof. Presas, "You got it, baby."

Us Northwest guys will have a slightly different style than the Eastern US family, the Texas family, the German family and different from the Filipino Modern Arnis practioners. Marrpio has the same foundation as the rest of us from a different part of the world and time, they also have evolved along their path differently as each one of us has.

Yep.

I Have spent time with the Presas family they are absolutely wonderful people... They are not interested in the politics only in sharing with and embracing Modern Arnis practitioners as family and I ask you this why not share with them what you have that they may not, make this a two way street for everybody's benefit?

Acknowledging what I have just discussed why not accept that we all may be a little different in our interpretation of modern Arnis but we are still in the same family? Share like mature family members not bicker like young siblings.

Sounds like a good idea and thanks for the good post. See you in West Linn next weekend.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by ARNIS PRINCESS
And speaking of your symposium, you have already lost the Presas Family, Kelly Worden and Dan McConnell. Are you sure you want to risk losing another instructor due to your caustic remarks? I, myself, was looking forward to seeing Datu Worden and the Presas family. I am definitely rethinking my decision to attend the event.

Dear ARNIS PRINCESS,

I am not one of the promoters but I sincerely hope that you are going to attend the Symposium. I know for a fact that training and exposure to different flavors of Modern Arnis is going to be the focus of this event. Forum discussion and the dissing of other instructors or other affiliations is not.

As to losing the Presas family and Kelly Worden, I think Kelly had the Presas family already booked in Tacoma at his school. I think Dan McConnell has family committments. They will be missed as they represent a very valid portion of current day Modern Arnis. Senior IMAF and IMAF, Inc. representatives will be missed for the same reason.

Anyway, the Symposium will go on and it will be an excellent event. I continue to look forward to a very positive camp and will continue pushing the positive end of it. I hope you will attend.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Pappy Geo]

Sidebar here for Dan,

I was watching with Kelly a 1984 video yesterday called "T-Town battle of the black belts" (T for Tacoma). There was this thin young guy with lots of hair I mean lots of hair kicking butt in the ring. I said to Kelly whoever that is, is a real firecracker! He laughs and said that is Dan! No way! Yep everybody's changes! Laura Worden was only about 22, she would have been a candidate for the show on TV "are you hot", really foxy! ( she is still good looking but a lady now). She too was kicking butt! Kelly was the Referee tall, skinny not even 30 yet.

Priceless treasures from nearly 20 years ago! Is it time to start a Modern Arnis historical museum or library of old pictures and videos of the Professor and the senior students?, bonding everyone's common respect for the art. Maybe the could be reproduced and sold to support the cost of such library.

Anyway I got a real kick out of it!

 

[Cruentus]

The one thing that you continue to disregard is Professor Presas' dynamic and diverse relationships that he had developed, not just in the Philippines.

Now, I'm sure he had developed a good student/teacher relationship to his core students in the Phil.; I know that there were people dedicated to him, who trained with him diligently while he was in his native country. Maybe Marppio, his own children and others, were some of these dedicated students. I can't say for certain (nor can you), for we weren't there.

But the sad fact is, Professor was tossed out of his own country, and was forced to come to the U.S. Why do you continue to deny the possibility that while he was here in the U.S., that he could have had some "American" students who had the same level of dedication as did his students in the Philippines? That is why I brought up the race thing. I just call things like I see them. Because you continue to deny even the possibility that an "american" (non-filipino) could possibly have the same, if not more dedication then his "Filipino" students, I thought that your stance is culturally biased. You must admit, when seeing things from my viewpoint, that your stance does seem culturally biased, doesn't it? Regardless, you said that it was not a racial thing. So, I will take your word for it and move on.

Now don't think that I was "pissed off" because you were somehow correct. I was angry because I have someone who is not really in the system that I have been dedicated to, or who knows all the facts, making a bunch of accusations, declerations, and assumptions. This would piss off anyone. And I'm sorry if I was rude, but if you go into a situation with out knowing all the facts, you should expect to get spanked. Unfortunatily I was the one to do the spanking. I am glad that there is no hard feelings because of it.

Now, having said that, I might understand where you are coming from. I'm guessing that you've taken your stance because your experience of Modern Arnis and Remy Presas' students has been through maybe a few day seminars, or camps. This is a fair guess, because that was how Remy taught. I am also guessing that you noticed that it seemed like most of the people in the seminars were there to suppliment their training in another art, and were people who only saw him twice a year, if they were lucky. This has probably lead you to believe that Remy's students in the states couldn't possibly have even close to the same understanding of Remy's art as his students who were with him in the Philippines. If I am wrong in my assumptions here, please tell me. If this is correct, however, then I can actually understand why you took the position you did.

Having said that, let me shed some light on a different side that you may not have seen through your few encounters with Remy, or from your connections with other FMArtists. There were a good # of students (although smaller in %) that were greatly dedicated to them. They allocated one weekend a month at least to see him and train, wherever he was. Some of these people are career martial artist. Others (like myself, actually) are not career Martial Artists, but had the benifit of being able to allocate the $$ and time to see him that often during different periods of their life.

Now, lets figure this out, and do some silly math. Let's say someone was able to go to 4 camps in a year (this is not unreasonable, for we usually had 4 in the midwest that I could hit every year if I wanted to, about one for every season). Your usual camp runs Friday, Saturday, and part of Sunday. You train about 12 hours (morning, afternoon, evening sessions) on Fri. and Sat., and maybe only about 6 on Sunday. So that is about 30 hours a camp. Now the Michigan Summer camp started with an afternoon and evening session on Thursday. So for that camp, we are looking at about 38 hours of training. Then let's say that this very dedicated person was able to hit about 6 seminars that year, in addition to the 4 camps. We'll low ball our figure, and say that each seminar was about 6 hours long (some were longer, but that was about average). 6x6=36. None of this is unrealistic; 6 seminars and 4 camps is only 10 times for one year. So, lets add it all up....90 (from the 3 camps)+38(summer camp)+36(seperate seminars)=164 hour of seminar training w/ Professor during that year. I just outlined my basic training schedule (by the way) for a couple years running before the year of Remys death. Considering that I'm nobody special, this isn't unreasonable.

That adds up to be about 3 to 3 1/2 hours of training a week if you had access to a FMA instructor all the time, or at a school. This is just from seminar training alone. Even though it is of a diffrent quality because it is one-on-one training, I only see Manong Ted Buot for my Balintawak training only 1-2 hours a week, and I would consider myself a dedicated Balintawak student.

Now, Let's also figure that this seminar "junkie" has students, or has a Modern Arnis Instructor who is just as dedicated to train with, for about 2 hours a week(as I did until my original instructor retired and I inherited students and trained even more). If you figure this for lets say 48 weeks (minusing any breaks, missed classes, or holidays), then that adds up to be an additional 96 hours of VALID training, even if it is away from Remy. If you add that to my figure above (96+164=260) then that adds up to be 260 hours of training. This averages out to be ruffly 5 to 5 1/2 hours of training in a FMA school every week.

Then let's figure out people who hosted Remy for the seminars. If did what you were supposed to as a host, you gave him nice accomidations, and made sure he was completely taken care of. If you were smart (like I was the one time I had the pleasure of hosting him ) then you bugged him to train, and maybe got about 4 hours of personal time in.

None of these figures include personal training time, mind you.

Kuntawman, I just detailed out my training schedule, maybe give or take, for a running few years before Professor Passed away. The years prior to this, when I was too young and didn't have the means to take on such a gruelling schedule, I had the benifit of training with a Modern Arnis Black Belt who had this same level of dedication, to help develop my skills when I could only see Remy Presas twice a year. The point is, I am a nobody. I have no title or significant position in Modern Arnis. There are others who had gone to the 2 week camps (12 hour sessions for 2 week straight), and who had professor stay with them for weeks and months at a time, and got a ton of personal training time in. Now that's dedication. Since we talking about "children" taking over the art, there was one of these dedicated students, an american, who addressed Professor as "father" in Taglog, as Professor addressed him as "son." This person, as well as some of these other dedicated people, are todays Modern Arnis leaders.

Now is this the same as having your instructor around in one place at one time. No, it is definatily different, and more sporadic. However, I would argue from my experience that when your not sure when you'll train with your teacher again, or if you know you have to wait a month to see him again, you cherish every moment, more so then if you were training at a school somewhere. So, I wouldn't discount these people who trained in America in this fashion of not having the dedication of his students in the Philippines. That just isn't a fair assessment. Training in this fashion may be different and unique, but it doesn't make these students who had to train like this any less in terms of dedication and skill.

Now after having shed a different light on the subject, maybe now you can see what I am saying. I must also say again that I am not trying to take away from Professors Filipino students, or his children. But I am trying to level the playing field, so to speak. If you choose to deny the facts that I am proposing to you here, then there will be nothing I, or anyone can do to change your mind. I hope, however, since I took the time and care to give you this lengthy explaination, that you will reconsider your position.

Respectfully,
PAUL

 

[norshadow1]

Originally posted by ARNIS PRINCESS
Dr. Barber-

What is your problem?! YOU started this whole bit about organization vs curriculum names, and when Mr. Hartman gives his explanation about his use of the term "kuntao", YOU decide ..there is no need to take this diversionary discussion any further. It is done! Who named you "Organization/Curriculum/Business Card Police"? I also have Mr. Hartman's business cards. Did you happen to mention that his business card also states "International Modern Arnis Federation"? Just because someone puts a logo on their card, does not mean that it is "their" organization. Case in point, I also have a card from Punong Guro Doug Pierre. There are two logos - GrandMaster Remy A. Presas Modern Arnis logo and Modern Arnis Domog logo. Is "GrandMaster Remy A. Presas Modern Arnis" Mr. Pierre's organization - or does he just teach Modern Arnis? Is Modern Arnis Domog an organization? Or is it a school? Or is it just a curriculum? Not very clear - is it?

As for the name of Mr. Hartman's school changing....you are obviously not a businessman. Dissolution of partnerships is a daily occurance. Unless agreed upon, a business name cannot be used after a partnership is dissolved. And I am sure we both can name many businesses that have changed their name for whatever the reason.

It is amusing to see you tell Mr. Hartman ...there is no need to take this diversionary discussion any further. It appeared that Mr. Hartman was only trying to clarify a misstatement on your part. Unfortunately, when the discussion started going against you, you decide it was "diversionary".

I would consider "diversionary" - mentioning YOUR symposium on every thread you can possibly sneak it into.

And speaking of your symposium, you have already lost the Presas Family, Kelly Worden and Dan McConnell. Are you sure you want to risk losing another instructor due to your caustic remarks? I, myself, was looking forward to seeing Datu Worden and the Presas family. I am definitely rethinking my decision to attend the event.

Gee Whiz Arnis Princess,

I understand where both sides of the discussion are coming from and I also understand that there was a very good possibility for mistaking the differences between an organizational name and a school or curriculum name, because the stuff was evolving over a long time. When I lived and trained in Buffalo, I had a similar view to that which Dr. Barber has expressed. Please note that Mr. Hartman, has never claimed to have studied Kuntao, but uses it as a sub-title in his belt structure. Also note that Paul, clearly understood the point that Dr. Barber was making. The matter does need to be closed. Datu Hartman and Dr. Barber will take care it without our help, I am sure.

Now I can't say too much about the symposium in terms of your decision to attend, however, I do think that the man has the right to mention it as often as he wishes. He always stresses the positives and points out where some issues being debated could be discussed and perhaps technical aspects viewed at the Symposium. I understand that some people, including yourself, from what you have posted, are not happy to see these posts, but why are you so focused on the symposium statements? He has posted some great observations and corrected information. Plus he has provided good source material to support his positions. He does not just act on opinions and beliefs alone.

I also have to say that I am impressed with the line-up in spite of the absence of Datu Worden and the Presas Family. I was very impressed with the way Dr. Barber handled the change in plans by Datu Worden and the Presas Family. Both had indicated in that were going to attend and their names were mentioned for months on multiple forums and digests, before the new plans for the Tacoma event were announced. Its a done deal, they will not be there, but the event will go on. Guro Dan McConnell's recent withdrawal was handled with a good deal of grace by Dr. Barber. No ill will or sour grapes were expressed. People are going to do what they need to do. Family and work should always come before a martial arts event. Guro McConnell, put his family first and I applaud him for that decision.

Personally, I am disappointed that Mr. Delaney, Ms. McManus, Dr. Schea, Mr. Gauss, Mr. Smith, Mr. Zwalinski and Mr. Ladis, all declined to attend. On the other hand, I am very pleased to see and support ALL of the instructors who have agreed to be part of the program. These people have my respect and admiration because they are willing to share with any and all people who attend the event. Dr. Barber is merely the organizer, not a presenter, therefore not attending because of him is disrespectful, IMHO, toward the presenters. They should be the focus of this program.

I would guess that Dr. Barber is going to be at the WMAA Camp in May, since he has arranged to go to lunch with Paul, perhaps you should talk with him there, face to face. I doubt that he would avoid you if you were there. He is being supportive of this WMAA event, although he is not a member of that group. It is obvious to me, from what you wrote, that you are close to Datu Hartman, so why wouldn't you support him at the symposium?

Difference of opinion do happen and sometimes the best way to handle them is to leave the people involved alone to resolve the matter. I hope that you will attend the symposium and support the instructors who are giving of their time and expertise.

Lamont

 

[thekuntawman]

i see your point, and i now understand. one weekend a month, that is good. i dont consider it equal to training where you progress, like beginner classes this year, intermediate next year, advance the year after, etc. but you are getting good supervision even one weekend the month. so for my downing of that, i apologize.

my problem is when people say something bad about the ones who are with remy presas in the past and study full time with him then, and they say, who do you think you are, you missed the last 20 years. if these people are black belters before you started, they are your senior period. in those days, mr presas did not have 5, 6 degrees of belts. so a 2nd degree from 1971 is less than a 4th degree of 1999? what i see is younger inexperience poeple who say they are superior, and lost respect because they learn some new drills that were not around in 1970.

but for the presas children, i still say they have some "insight" a part time student can not get. when you are in a seminar with beginners and intermediate, and you are advance or expert already, you need good one on one, and coaching while you fight against other people in your level. i dont think this happens in a seminar so exchange with people who did get it, is necessary.

it is difficult for me to hear someone point about his own credibilaty, when he is putting down the person in order to build it up. i am not trying to take away from the american students, i am only saying the advantage remy's full time people had over the seminar people can and should be taught to the american students. but you know what? the attitude of the american students is " i dont need the filipino students!"

now of course the new students can show the older ones what they miss in the last 25 years, and i believe that is what the gathering in new york will be for. but i didnt bring it up, because i am only mentioning the issue with the presas kids, it was in many of the recent postings.