arrogant and inexperience

[thekuntawman]

i notice that people who have just a little experience, think they know a lot because they study with master so and so, and challenge even a filipino on the tagalog language! they believe that since they dont see your ad in the magazine you dont know much, and since you dont go around doing seminars and giving out certificates you are not that good. and they argue everything you say that they dont know much about, so you must not know what your talking about.

i am not talking about how people treat me, i am talking about how you guys treat remy presas kids.

i saw them in person, and i can tell you, the skill of those "children" is better than what i seen most of the "updated" modern arnis people have. you think you have to study with someone forever to stay good? TMS--too much seminar. your knowledge is only updated in your training, not re-certificate every year. the son of remy presas can show you a thing, if anything, how to look better swinging your sticks. so what if he doesnt know the new method of tapi tapi. is there art no longer presas style arnis? just because you didnt see tham at any of these seminars?

i think i am illiterate now. i never went back to the 8th grade in more than 20 years. that's bs.

so maybe they didnt study from there dad when you see them. when i teach my daughter and my brother, i do it at home. my brother is far ahead of my students with 2 years experience. i can bet money, that the presas kids got more than 3,4 seminars a year, mr know it all. now maybe he evolve to one direction, and they went another direction, but i am sure mr presas did not leave his kids with poor skills. and so what if the teaching is not the same what you got in those seminars, maybe you might like what they have to show that is new to you. but instead you insult them because you didnt know remy presas kids new arnis at all.

it is also disrepect for the students to show disresepct to the teachers children. do you think he would be pleased with you?

arrogance. no respect. green young lions.

in many filipino styles, and maybe you dont know this from watching video and going to seminar and reading websites, you would have to call presas juinior, gran master presas, like it or not. what do they have to do to get some respect, sell you a black belt certificate?

 

[Mickey]

Yet in the Mcmanus thread you hope people will attack someone, so it is ok if you say it is ok, but not ok if you think it should not be?

I am confused

 

[Cruentus]

Would you mind specifying "who" exactly your directing your post too. There are a lot of different Modern Arnis Factions, so some specification would be appropriate, I think.

 

[thekuntawman]

i dont follow who is who in modern arnis. but i read the post here because anything about philippine martial arts is interesting to me.

to answer micky's question, i am talking about anyone who been in the art for 10 years or less, and says he love remy presas, is not showing this love for your teacher by insulting his kids. now if you have just a little time in the art, how can you doubt the skill of someone who train with remy presas, MORE THAN YOU, just because you saw him 3-4 times a year in the last 10 years of his life? like those people in the philippines who study with him before he came to the US. is there knowledge less than yours because they didnt "update" training by taking seminars with people with less time and experience?

i am talking about the comment i read in any topic with the kids of remy presas. instead of welcome them, you are saying, who are you, i dint see you at any of those seminars?

i am not interested to read the old postings and see whose name is there. but those of you who got little respect, you know who you are.

if you are offended by the things i am saying here, than i am probably talking about you.

"Yet in the Mcmanus thread you hope people will attack someone, so it is ok if you say it is ok, but not ok if you think it should not be?"

no i dont want anybody to be attack. if i think they need attackig i will do it myself. i am talking about lisa mcmanus was a BROWN BELT in 1999. i know, because i know a friend of hers. and today, she is a 5th degree? the fault aint hers, dont insult her, insult the teacher who give it to her.

oh here, i'll say it...who ever gave her the 5th degree is bastardising the modern arnis name, how bout that?

 

[Dan Anderson]

Dear Kuntawman,
Not all of us are dissing the Presas family. I, Kelly Worden and Tim Hartman a just a few who have a good relationship with them. Kelly is the closest and has had the family do several seminars at this school in Tacoma. I gave them my demonstration slot at the first Filipino Martial Arts Gathering in San Francisco last year. Personally, I am glad they are on the scene.

I remember Prof. Presas mentioning MaryAnn a number of times and that she was a good arnisador. I also remember meeting Demetrio at a summer camp when he was a kid. They didn't see much of their father for quite some time but when he was ill, they welcomed each other with open arms and their reason for carrying on the Presas name with MARPPIO is because it is his wish that they continue the art. The more the merrier, I say.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Yes, the promotion of Lisa McManus to 5th degree now when she was a brown belt in 1999 is a bit premature.

 

[Cruentus]

Thanks for the clarification.

Although I agree with you on several of your points, now that you have clarified, I do not agree with the way you first presented yourself in this thread. The reason is because you are not a Modern Arnis student. Because of this, you came off as arrogent. If there was a political issues with Kuntaw (not that there would be, but this is just an example) I wouldn't jump into a forum for Kuntaw and pretend like I know what I am talking about, for I haven't been in the art to know the dynamics of the politics.

I think you it would have been more effective to ask a question, such as "Why is it that some people seem to show little respect for the Presas children?" or something of the like. You probably would have gotten some feedback regarding the situation. Then, of course if you disagree then say so.

People are more apt to listen to you if you are trying to understand them, then if you preach or rant at them. This is just my observation.

On a less critical note, as to the comment "who ever gave her (McManus) a 5th degree is bastardizing the modern arnis name." That is a keen observation, that I would have to agree with.

:asian:

 

[Mickey]

Originally posted by thekuntawman
i dont follow who is who in modern arnis. but i read the post here because anything about philippine martial arts is interesting to me.

to answer micky's question, i am talking about anyone who been in the art for 10 years or less, and says he love remy presas, is not showing this love for your teacher by insulting his kids. now if you have just a little time in the art, how can you doubt the skill of someone who train with remy presas, MORE THAN YOU, just because you saw him 3-4 times a year in the last 10 years of his life? like those people in the philippines who study with him before he came to the US. is there knowledge less than yours because they didnt "update" training by taking seminars with people with less time and experience?

i am talking about the comment i read in any topic with the kids of remy presas. instead of welcome them, you are saying, who are you, i dint see you at any of those seminars?

i am not interested to read the old postings and see whose name is there. but those of you who got little respect, you know who you are.

if you are offended by the things i am saying here, than i am probably talking about you.

"Yet in the Mcmanus thread you hope people will attack someone, so it is ok if you say it is ok, but not ok if you think it should not be?"

no i dont want anybody to be attack. if i think they need attackig i will do it myself. i am talking about lisa mcmanus was a BROWN BELT in 1999. i know, because i know a friend of hers. and today, she is a 5th degree? the fault aint hers, dont insult her, insult the teacher who give it to her.

oh here, i'll say it...who ever gave her the 5th degree is bastardising the modern arnis name, how bout that?

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[arnisandyz]

In defense of the kuntawman (not that he needs it)... No he may not be a modern arnis student or guro, but he IS a Pinoy of Filipino decent with a background and history of the way the art was and should be taught and its culture. And in our culture, anybody of seniority even outside of your "style" is due proper respect.

Going the other way. in a sence Grandmaster Presas invited this upon himself by offering the art to the world which is not always keen on Filipino culture.

 

[Rich Parsons]

the kuntawman,

Sir, Have I insulted you or the Presas Family? If so please advise me here or in private, as you see fit. :asian:


I can undertand your frustration, yet I might not agree with your delivery. We have crossed paths in the past, and I have not thought we were enemies or anything like that.

You speak of Arrogance and Inexperience. I would say that no country or group of people have no arrogance or all arrogance. To one culture it could seem normal and to another it could be arrogance, when actualy it is just being reserved. As for the inexperience, this is your judgement call, and it fair for you to say so. Yet, from many of your posts, you seem to be inexperenced to me in the ways of communications and instructions. You might be excellant as an instructor in person and to other Filipino's. To this I respect, until proven differently in person. So please, accept this not as an insult or challenge, just as a perception from someone of a different background and heritage. So, as one who is always willing to learn more, please advise me.

Thank You
:asian:

 

[Cruentus]

Professor Presas taught and developed a large portion of his art here in America. His art progressed until the day he died, and now it's up to his students to continue the progression. Given that he had travelled most weeks of the year to teach in America, many (or even most) of his students are American. Professor loved being Filipino, but when I knew him, he also loved being an American. If Professor had stayed completely traditional by the standards of his culture, he wouldn't have taught women, or university students in Physical education programs, or even non-Filipino's. He might not have even decided to develop "Modern" Arnis, but might have instead chosen to represent another system, such as Balintawak for example. The fact is, Modern Arnis was enabled to be created because Professor Presas didn't adhere to the constraints of any cultural view of "how things should be taught," Filipino, American, or other. How his students behave and interact, therefore, won't be constrained by these views either.

Bottom line: Respect is earned, not given freely, in any culture. No matter what your last name is, what color you are, what culture you come from, how old you are, or how long you trained; we all have to earn respect in the long run. Professor Presas earned it. He earned it the Phillipines, and he earned it here in America. Hell, he earned it all over the world.

The question is, will our leaders be able to do the same? Will you? A last name or a race only gets you so far.

Respectfully,
PAUL

P.S. Please understand that I mean no direct slam against the Presas Children, or against anyone in particular. I am simply stating my points, and the facts. :asian:

 

[Guro Harold]

Guys,

My two cents.

I. I think that we need to listen to Andy's clarifications in this regard.

II. Only the Presas Children are getting back on the scene. The other people like Mr. Dagooc have been around. Even so, they have a vast amount of experience from eating, breathing, and sleeping the art growing up. That has to be considered.

III. Common sense. To respect the father, in general, there must be some respect for his children. Them earning a spot in the world is a different thing but at least treat them with some decency. The alienation issue and lack of recent training is an issue that MARPPIO faced head on in their introduction of themselves at the seminar in Durham, maybe its something they do everywhere that they go.

IV. TheKuntawMan is not in Modern Arnis but he might have a contact associated with it and Ms. McManus. Is this the typical reaction from those who are in Filipino family systems to the rapid promotion of Ms. McManus?

Palusut

 

[arnisandyz]

"Bottom line: Respect is earned, not given freely, in any culture."

So you mean to tell me if you meet you girlfriends father (your future father in law perhaps) for the first time, you are not going to show him respect until he earns it? Does he have to prove to you he diserves to be in the same room with you? Personally I would show respect even though I don't know the man, not only because the relation, but because he is much older and wiser than I am. In a totally unrelated side note: in America many people throw there mothers and fathers into nursing homes when they can't take care of themselves anymore, in the PI you have sometimes up to 4 generations living under one roof, no such things as nursing homes. (Is this different culture or diffent levels of respect?)

I am also proud to be Filipino AND American by the way I don't mean to cause more problems, but try to relate to both sides.

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by PAUL
Thanks for the clarification.

Although I agree with you on several of your points, now that you have clarified, I do not agree with the way you first presented yourself in this thread. The reason is because you are not a Modern Arnis student. Because of this, you came off as arrogent. If there was a political issues with Kuntaw (not that there would be, but this is just an example) I wouldn't jump into a forum for Kuntaw and pretend like I know what I am talking about, for I haven't been in the art to know the dynamics of the politics.

I think you it would have been more effective to ask a question, such as "Why is it that some people seem to show little respect for the Presas children?" or something of the like. You probably would have gotten some feedback regarding the situation. Then, of course if you disagree then say so.

People are more apt to listen to you if you are trying to understand them, then if you preach or rant at them. This is just my observation.

On a less critical note, as to the comment "who ever gave her (McManus) a 5th degree is bastardizing the modern arnis name." That is a keen observation, that I would have to agree with.

:asian:

Paul,

When you get to Buffalo for the WMAA Camp, we should go to lunch on Saturday and talk. You have not done your homework or asked the right questions of the Kuntawman. He does have some background in Presas Style Arnis, he is an accomplished FMA player and instructor, he has inherited his family system of arnis/eskrima or as some would call it in the Philippines... 'kuntaw'
in addition to having a very credible reputation among some FMA instructors here in the USA. When I go to Sacremento, new spring for the graduation of a friend from college, I will be making a stop at Kuntawman's school to pay my respects and get some training.

He has made a number of important points and we should look at them carefully without regard for the screen name that he uses or our own assumptions about what he knows or does not know because of the name that he displays.

He has also made an error in his presentation, because he has based it on Pilipino culture and not the transplanation to American culture where the teach is not as revered as in the former.

BTW, don't you have a curriculum area entitled "kuntao" in the WMAA? Are you aware of the fact that before the WMAA was formed Datu Hartman used the the organizatiion names of "Arnis de Mano - Arnis Kuntao" and later he used "Arnis de Mano - Kuntao Sikaran". If everyone judged his system name as the totality of what he taught and represented could there not be a misunderstanding involving "kuntao"?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by DoctorB
BTW, don't you have a curriculum area entitled "kuntao" in the WMAA? Are you aware of the fact that before the WMAA was formed Datu Hartman used the the organizatiion names of "Arnis de Mano - Arnis Kuntao" and later he used "Arnis de Mano - Kuntao Sikaran". If everyone judged his system name as the totality of what he taught and represented could there not be a misunderstanding involving "kuntao"?

Yes, Mr. Hartman has always looked for a way to communicate to people that Modern Arnis is more than just stick-on-stick fighting, as some think--it also includes empty hand techniques. There is perhaps the possibility of a misunderstanding either way one goes!

 

[Cruentus]

You make some valid points, so I should clarify what I mean by "respect." I didn't think we where talking about respect for people in general. Generally speaking, I respect everyone unless they do something that causes me to LOSE respect for them. And of course, we all have a different level of respect for people because of a given status, like if they are your girlfriends parents, or your elders, or (since this is what started this) the children of your teacher.

But, I didn't think that was the kind of respect we are talking about here. I thought we were talking about respect (or recognition of status, or validation of skill, or whatever you want to call it) as an arnis player, or as a martial artist. There is a big difference between that kind of respect, and respecting someone because they are older, or your girlfriends father.

I respect my girlfriends father, but I don't recognize him as an Arnisador. I will respect you, Kuntawman, the Presas children, my girlfriends parents, or even a stranger I just meet. I will respect everyone and anyone on different levels. But, if you, the Kuntawman, the Presas Children, my girlfriends parents, or the stranger I just meet want recognition as an arnisador, that is an entirely different story. If anyone wants recognition as an arnisador, they have to EARN IT!

So, when I say that respect is earned, not given freely, in any culture, please understand that I am refering to recognition as a martial artist/arnisador, not just respect in general.

I may sound redundant here, but I want to hammer my point into everyones head because this is a touchy conversation, and I don't want to be misunderstood.

I respect Marppio for who they are, being the children of my late teacher. I have talked with Remy Jr. and Demetrio on the phone, and I must say that I like their personalities, and I respect them for their demeanor, and their status. If I was a school owner, I would consider bringing them to Michigan to host a seminar. Since I can't host them myself, I just hope that at some point I will get to see them. I was going to see them at the Filipino Brotherhood seminar in New York, but they couldn't make it. I was hoping to see them at the symposium, but they can't make it to that either. I would like to see them in action for myself, and hopefully someday that will happend.

Having said that.....do I recognize Marppio as being good arnisadors. I can't say that I do. I have yet to see them in action before I can make that determination. And I don't think that anyone has the right to say that I should without a doubt give them recognition as good arnis players (without having yet seen or trained with them) because of a last name. That wouldn't even be fair to them. I'm not saying that they ARE NOT good arnisadors either. I am just saying that respect as an arnisador has to be earned; and it can only happend for me when I play with them.

So, to further clarify, when someone says: "I bought so-and-so's tape, or I went to so-and-so's seminar, and I wasn't impressed," is this disrespectful? Or is it a valid opinion? I think it depends on the motive or how it is presented. But if the opinion is valid, then I think that person is entitled to it, and allowed to not give so-and-so credit as a good arnis player if they felt that "so-and-so" hasn't earned it. That "so-and-so" could be any arnis instructor, by the way.

So hopefully now I have clarified, and my point still stands: Respect [as an arnisador] is earned, not given freely.

Thank you,
PAUL

 

[Cruentus]

Thanks for the clarification on the Kuntawman.

I can see in his profile that he has experience in Filipino martial arts, but there is nothing that I saw in his profile about his training in Modern Arnis. He also says that "I don't follow who's who in Modern Arnis." So, he may be familiar with the system, but it appears that he is not in the system. There is a difference.

Example: I am familiar with Pekiti Tersia. I have trained with a few Pekiti folks, and I have attended seminars. But am I in the system? I would say not. So, if the Pekiti people had a forum, and if I got on and started making statements regarding political issues, and rebuking behaviors of Pekiti people with generalizations like "I don't agree with the way 'you guys' treat so-and-so," then how would I sound? I think I would sound arrogent. Plus it would be counterporductive. The Pekiti people would be asking themselves "who the hell is this guy" or "who does he think he is" rather then listening to what I have to say anyways.

I am not saying that the Kuntawman is arrogent, or a bad guy, or a bad martial artist. He probably is a good guy. I'd like to meet him someday. However, this doesn't change that I feel that he could have introduced this thread in a different manner, because the original way in which it was done came accrossed as kind of arrogent to me. I'm just glad that I asked for clarification instead of going with my original interpretation of his actions.

For the record, he did indeed clarify himself, so I don't think he was trying to be arrogent at all, even if that was the way he originally sounded to me. Once I was able to get past my original interpretation of his post, I was able to see his points more clearly.

One last thing.....I would be glad to get lunch sometime w/ you and chat in buffalo!

Paul

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by DoctorB
BTW, don't you have a curriculum area entitled "kuntao" in the WMAA? Are you aware of the fact that before the WMAA was formed Datu Hartman used the the organizatiion names of "Arnis de Mano - Arnis Kuntao" and later he used "Arnis de Mano - Kuntao Sikaran". If everyone judged his system name as the totality of what he taught and represented could there not be a misunderstanding involving "kuntao"?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

For the record the organization name was never Arnis de Mano - Kuntao Sikaran, it was the Can-Am chapter of the IMAF. This is found here, http://web.archive.org/web/20000303101456/http://www.wmarnis.com/

The name was used for my school cirriculum. This was used for in school belt promotions and was NEVER used as an organization.

Respectfully
Tim Hartman

:asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Actually I used the word KUNTAO as suggested by Dr. Barber.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by DoctorB
BTW, don't you have a curriculum area entitled "kuntao" in the WMAA?
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

This has rescently been changed to Mano - Mano to fit more in the spirit of FMA.

 

[thekuntawman]

hello
i didnt mean to offend people, only to point my finger to some people who have some attitude to remy presas kids. i notice the same attitude some pekiti tirsia people here in the US have to old students of leo gaje from the philippines that THEY never heard before. and from some of the sayoc students to leo gaje. wether we like it or not people will always hold opinions of us, its just that most people wont say it. i am just one of those people who always say it. right now it pissed people off becuase i am young, but when i get to be like 60 or something years old, people will listen and they will call my opinion "wisdom", even if they dont like it. but as a young man, my experience only is called "smart aleck".

your name means nothing, i agree. so is your race. but i also say, so is your resume, your bibliography, your popularity, and the size of your school or organization. but to many people respect is earned for people who have many videos and do lots of seminars. they have to see your name in the magazine a lot, or read it on the internet. i go by your ability to fight with your skills. but i also respect age and sometimes skill without seeing the fighting. but in talking about the presas kids, people say, i havent heard of you, you just popped into the scene (this part is not true, they are just not on the US seminar world), i dont know you. how about, nice to meet you, son of my arnis teacher? most of the modern arnis people i read about i had respect for before i saw the skills, only because they are high ranking students of remy presas, the brother of two of my teachers, ernesto and roberto. some i lost respect after i heard there talking, and saw that they did not have much skills, just long resume. now, i see some people like hoch, who turned his back to arnis, calling it impractical, when what he is doing is base in the "FMA".