Are you an "Inclusivist" or "Exclusivist" in your view of WC?
- Thread starter geezer
- Start date
I thought it was more like a warning.
If you want to dish such advice out and act upon t in terms of reporting perceived offences to moderators then please at least be equal handed. Or don't do it. Just some friendly advice, but then I'm not trying to get anyone banned, am I?
I should just ignore this...and you. But really, let's do address this since you continue to fling these accusations at me. Just where do you think I have lied or been dishonest to anyone? You have gotten away with calling me a troll, and a liar, and a coward and have insulted me on numerous occasions. Moderators have done nothing. So just how do you think I have been dishonest with anyone? The one case where I said I agree with LJF and you said I was lying because I didn't really agree...I pointed out exactly WHY I said I agreed and wasn't lying about anything. So either drop the ridiculousness, leave the forum, or point out exactly how I've lied about anything.
Well, KPM, where I think you've been less than honest, it has been with yourself more than anything, so...
An example, you did say we dismissed your evidence for a suggested connection between White Crane and Wing Chun "out of hand"... which is just not true.
And you knew it wasn't true because you followed us for several pages where we gave reasons for not accepting your evidence, with detailed explanations, pictures, videos, and quotes from historians in building our side of the debate.
Saying we just dismissed your stuff out of hand really undermines the effort we put into the discussion on that topic. It's just that we didn't agree with you in the final analysis, and you couldn't accept that, so you reduced it to "out of hand" rejection, which is clearly dishonest.
An example, you did say we dismissed your evidence for a suggested connection between White Crane and Wing Chun "out of hand"... which is just not true.
And you knew it wasn't true because you followed us for several pages where we gave reasons for not accepting your evidence, with detailed explanations, pictures, videos, and quotes from historians in building our side of the debate.
Saying we just dismissed your stuff out of hand really undermines the effort we put into the discussion on that topic. It's just that we didn't agree with you in the final analysis, and you couldn't accept that, so you reduced it to "out of hand" rejection, which is clearly dishonest.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #48
LFJ, I get it. You were simply expressing your point of view on the subject, saying that you don't think KPM was being honest with himself, nor was he accurately describing the situation. That's fine. I disagree, but have no objection to your opinion or your wording. People have strongly differing views which color their perceptions. But that doesn't justify the use of epithets like "liar", "coward", "lying parasite" and some of the other stuff people started throwing around. If people want to rant like that, there are other forums where that stuff is the norm. Not here.
Now let's move on.
No. I disagree. What I said was that you cannot just dismiss what I said, because what I presented were facts. You may not agree that those facts suggest real connections, and I said that. But you cannot deny that those facts actually exist....which you did, which is "dismissing them out of hand." You can present arguments and reasons for not accepting that the evidence is enough to show an actual connection between White Crane and Wing Chun, but you cannot deny that the evidence actually exists. THAT is what I said you were "dismissing out of hand." I wasn't being dishonest with anyone, including myself. And disagreeing in an argument/discussion is a far cry from lying or being dishonest or being a coward or any number of other things you accused me off. Besides...you were all about how everyone needed to essentially grow up and tolerate the BS behavior coming from you and Guy. And yet you take such major offense at me saying that you dismissed something "out of hand"????
That actually offended you enough for you to call me a "lying parasite"??
OP
- Thread Starter
- #50
That actually offended you enough for you to call me a "lying parasite"??
You'd prefer to be called a "truthful parasite"?
. I didn't think so. So just let it go! You've stated your position numerous times with total clarity. If certain people are unable to accept what you've previously posted, why do you think they will suddenly develop vastly improved reading comprehension now? ....moving on....
No. I disagree. What I said was that you cannot just dismiss what I said, because what I presented were facts. You may not agree that those facts suggest real connections, and I said that. But you cannot deny that those facts actually exist....which you did, which is "dismissing them out of hand." You can present arguments and reasons for not accepting that the evidence is enough to show an actual connection between White Crane and Wing Chun, but you cannot deny that the evidence actually exists. THAT is what I said you were "dismissing out of hand." I wasn't being dishonest with anyone, including myself. And disagreeing in an argument/discussion is a far cry from lying or being dishonest or being a coward or any number of other things you accused me off. Besides...you were all about how everyone needed to essentially grow up and tolerate the BS behavior coming from you and Guy. And yet you take such major offense at me saying that you dismissed something "out of hand"????
Just a sidenote, please avoid using words such as facts and evidence in regards to WC history. I know you mean it is your own opinion and LFJ as well as guy write this way all the time which can annoy me. Facts and evidence probably dont exist anymore, even though I would have wanted to figure it out.
Then again, my inclusivist nature thinks that our art is better now than it ever has been before. One evidence of such a thing is BJJ and how it has caused a lot of schools to incorporate groundwork teachings not in order to use instead of WC but also to teach students how and why to attack a certain way as to make their drills more realistic.
Also we are eager to share and mix knowledge, which previously was individualized. Each had their own understanding, but now through internet all of it is brought out into the open.
No, Phobius. That was kind of my point. The stories themselves may not be factual, but what is a fact is that the stories exist! You cannot simply dismiss them as if they didn't exist! I was referring to the following facts, for example:
1. Both White Crane and Wing Chun share nearly the same origin stories. That is a fact.
2. Fukien White Crane looks very similar to Wing Chun (at least mainland China versions) to many people. That is a fact.
3. People from both the Wing Chun side and the White Crane side have theorized that he two are connected for many years now. That is a fact.
4. Early Wing Chun and an early form of White Crane were found amongst the Red Boat performers at the same time in history. That is a fact.
Etc.
I'm NOT claiming that the various origin stories and legends in circulation are factual. And I've said multiple times now that anyone is free to see those facts as suggesting an actual connection of some sort between White Crane and Wing Chun....or not! But you can't claim that these facts don't exist. That was my point. I haven't lied or been dishonest about anything.
And yet you take such major offense at me saying that you dismissed something "out of hand"????
You presented these "facts" as "evidence".
It's also a fact there are many people who theorize that Earth is only 6k years old and have stories about it.
I'm not claiming these people and their stories don't exist, but I'm not accepting them as accurate or evidence for Earth being 6k years old.
If despite me building a scientifically based argument to the contrary, a Young Earther were to say I dismissed their "facts" and "evidence" out of hand, I would not be offended. I'd only find it humorous.
And you know full well the coward and lying parasite comments did not come from that topic. But let's leave that in the past, lest you and the mods get more sand (PC edit: content removed).
Nobody is dismissing them as if they don't exist. They were dismissed on the basis that they were untrue or extremely unlikely.
So do many southern chinese MA. These were inserted in the early 20th C. See Judkins
It only looks similar on the basis of superficial hand movements. In any meaningful way it is quite dissimilar. Discussed ad nauseam
This is an argument from popularity, a fallacious type of argument
Evidence?
The arguments presented in these statements are not facts. The only fact is that such statements have been made by you and sometimes other people
Ignoring counter arguments and misrepresenting what people have said is dishonest, provided it was done intentionally. If not (maybe you just have a poor memory), then you have my condolences.
You presented these "facts" as "evidence".
---Yes. These facts represent evidence of a connection between Wing Chun and White Crane. Why is that so hard to understand? And....I will say again.....you can accept that this is enough to theorize a connection between the two arts or not. But you cannot pretend that those facts don't exist.
It's also a fact there are many people who theorize that Earth is only 6k years old and have stories about it.
----But there is strong scientific evidence to the contrary.
If despite me building a scientifically based argument to the contrary, a Young Earther were to say I dismissed their "facts" and "evidence" out of hand, I would not be offended. I'd only find it humorous.
----And you have never presented any "strong scientific evidence" to negate the theory that White Crane and Wing Chun are connected. So your example is totally out of context. Your argument to negate the theory was no more convincing that the argument to accept the theory. It certainly wasn't as definitive as you seem to think it was!
And you know full well the coward and lying parasite comments did not come from that topic.
----No I don't! I asked when you thought I had lied about anything and that was the example YOU came up with!
But let's leave that in the past, lest you and the mods get more sand (PC edit: content removed).
----Oh! Is that a taunt aimed at the moderators to get them to actually do something about your BS?
---And I am NOT here to reargue that debate. I was simply pointing out that in that particular discussion I was not being dishonest about anything as I was accused. Its time to drop that and move on.
---Yes. These facts represent evidence of a connection between Wing Chun and White Crane. Why is that so hard to understand? And....I will say again.....you can accept that this is enough to theorize a connection between the two arts or not. But you cannot pretend that those facts don't exist.
It's also a fact there are many people who theorize that Earth is only 6k years old and have stories about it.
----But there is strong scientific evidence to the contrary.
If despite me building a scientifically based argument to the contrary, a Young Earther were to say I dismissed their "facts" and "evidence" out of hand, I would not be offended. I'd only find it humorous.
----And you have never presented any "strong scientific evidence" to negate the theory that White Crane and Wing Chun are connected. So your example is totally out of context. Your argument to negate the theory was no more convincing that the argument to accept the theory. It certainly wasn't as definitive as you seem to think it was!
And you know full well the coward and lying parasite comments did not come from that topic.
----No I don't! I asked when you thought I had lied about anything and that was the example YOU came up with!
But let's leave that in the past, lest you and the mods get more sand (PC edit: content removed).
----Oh! Is that a taunt aimed at the moderators to get them to actually do something about your BS?
---And I am NOT here to reargue that debate. I was simply pointing out that in that particular discussion I was not being dishonest about anything as I was accused. Its time to drop that and move on.
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And see, this is exactly what I was talking about! They ARE facts. They exist! White Crane and Wing Chun do in fact have very similar origin stories, etc. To say that these are not facts is to "dismiss them out of hand." Guy has just proven my point. Case closed. Now shut up and move on!
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You'd prefer to be called a "truthful parasite"?
....moving on....
Yep. It seems a couple of people are STILL having problems with reading comprehension! And one has now made a taunting comment about the moderators not doing anything. And the other has once again called me a liar. Time to move on. I will try, but I can't promise I will continue to tolerate this same BS from these two.
Actually, guy b. and I both went into detail analyzing similarities and differences in physical movement and methods (which was apparently over your head), and quoted historians on what is more likely factual history than the fiction you appealed to.
Just one of many, and one that was blatant and obvious to anyone reading it.
