Are you an "Inclusivist" or "Exclusivist" in your view of WC?

[geezer]

It seems to me that a lot of the disagreements we have on this forum stem not so much from the particular lineage or branch of WC people train, but rather stem from their overall perspective.

Some folks are by nature exclusive in their viewpoint, they are very devoted to a particular branch or system and value what they do primarily in how it differs from what others do.

Others have an inclusive perspective. Although they may be equally dedicated to their branch, they look for and find commonalities between what they do and what other branches of WC, and indeed even between WC and other martial systems.

Your personality and perspective, that is to say whether you are inclusive or exclusive in outlook, will color everything you have to say. In fact it will be hard for exclusivists to even admit that this is ultimately just a matter of opinion! Their outlook leans towards being absolutist, and by nature they tend to view everything more in terms of right or wrong according to whatever measure they accept as authoritative, be it their sifu, their lineage, or perhaps according to what is "proven" in sparring, or competitions and the like.

The inclusivist tends to be more open to accepting diverse perspectives, and may be less confident that they have the only right answer. They tend to view all approaches as a mix of flawed opinions and universal truths. Basically they are relativists as opposed to the exclusivists who they see as narrow-minded authoritarians.

Understanding your own perspective relative to your audience is crucial if you are to have a meaningful dialogue in person or on this forum. Now, time for the big question: Which camp would you fall into?

 

[wckf92]

Ummmm....ok, I'll bite (sort of). I view WC'ers as either "conservatives" or "liberals". I think most of the WC world are conservatives. Whereas, I am a liberal. Not sure which camp that puts me in based on your post...

 

[KPM]

I guess I tend to be an "inclusivist."

 

[Danny T]

What about those who inclusively exclude all others?

I feel I fall into the inclusive category.

 

[geezer]

Ummmm....ok, I'll bite (sort of). I view WC'ers as either "conservatives" or "liberals". I think most of the WC world are conservatives. Whereas, I am a liberal. Not sure which camp that puts me in based on your post...

I deliberately avoided the use of the terms "liberal" and "conservative" because of their political connotations which could confuse the issue. Although if you consider the term "liberal" in it's broader meaning of being tolerant and open to new ideas, as compared to "conservative" as meaning supportive of tradition, or at least, the status quo, then I suppose these terms would roughly equate, respectively, to "inclusivist" and "exclusivist". This is especially true if you consider that "conservatives" often appeal to authority to justify a position whereas "liberals" tend to question authority even to the point of being iconoclastic.

So, if you define yourself as a WC liberal, I would expect you to be less rigid about lineage and what a particular master says, and more open to relevant ideas regardless of source ...ie an inclusivist.

BTW in my experience, often the most interested and involved members of this forum are "liberals" or inclusivists since 1. Exclusivists wouldn't view this as a place to learn and share since they are dedicated to what they already know, to their sifu and lineage and are satisfied with the answers provided there. And, 2. Exclusivists have to be very careful about what they say since they tend to function and train in an authoritarian culture and risk offending their superiors if they say the wrong thing.

Case in point: How many of the regular, long-term posters here in the WC forum train exclusively under a single "old-school" sifu? A few perhaps, and they (wisely) tend to be taciturn and laconic in their responses.

I know that when I functioned as a "disciple" of my old Chinese sifu, I was very careful about what I said publicly regarding our system, and I had to limit my contact with other WC people. One reason (among many) as to why I eventually drifted away was that I continued to have interests in other MA while my sifu and peers insisted that we already had all the correct answers!

 

[Tez3]

In the UK we would understand 'liberal' and 'conservative' as being what they traditionally mean and not the connotations America has given to them so it would make, for us, using these words quite suitable for martial arts use. I wouldn't have commented on this section but reading the OP I think it also the problem with the whole site not just one styles part of it. Far too often now we are having posts telling us 'there is only one way and everyone is wrong except me'. Parts of the post and the subsequent one by geezer may just refer to CMA but on the whole it is relevant to all the martial artists who post on MT so thank you for posting geezer. Now I'll pop back in my box and let you debate your specific style interests.

 

[Vajramusti]

Context is important in my analyses on this question.
Exclusive yes, inclusive yes- depends on context.
As far as understanding the details of the concepts of wing chun
both external and internal I would probably fall into the exclusive camp.
In picking up ideas on applications I can be inclusive.
And I am definitely inclusive in respecting kung fu brothers, cousins etc
in a family way.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Based on supplied definition...inclusivist

 

[Phobius]

Inclusive, I even believe that other martial arts have much of valuable information that may only improve my own understanding of WC.

 

[guy b.]

Some folks are by nature exclusive in their viewpoint, they are very devoted to a particular branch or system and value what they do primarily in how it differs from what others do.

Others have an inclusive perspective. Although they may be equally dedicated to their branch, they look for and find commonalities between what they do and what other branches of WC, and indeed even between WC and other martial systems.

I think that extrapolation from beliefs about wing chun to statements about personality and outlook is a big jump to make.

In terms of even just other MA I have always been in favour of cross training, combining, talking, using what works, sharing info. I have never had a strong allegiance to a particular approach to the exclusion of other approaches. For example I have trained bjj for years but I see the value in several other grappling approaches and have trained different ways seriously- I started judo in my teens and I did wrestling and sub wrestling in my 20s. All of these have influenced the way I approach bjj.

But in wing chun I feel differently because everything else that I have seen is just...so poor in comparison to what I do now. I don't think it is anything to do with my personality really. I think it is to do with the wing chun that I have experienced. I don't say that what I have seen applies to all wing chun, but I feel as if some people on the forum would like me to accept their approach on trust, which to me seems stupid. I need to at least hear about what you do and why before I can give it serious consideration. If it sounds convincing then I will do my best to experience it. But nobody here is interested in convincing anyone else; it is all about pushing relativism and accepting any approach as valid.

In martial arts I guess I accept what works and reject what doesn't. In this sense you might indeed characterise me as having an exclusive perspective, but I feel it would be ridiculous to do so because if MA doesn't work, then what is it? I am not interested in a hobby, or in appearing knowledgeable, or friendship, or anything else. I just want to improve my fighting ability.

The inclusivist tends to be more open to accepting diverse perspectives, and may be less confident that they have the only right answer. They tend to view all approaches as a mix of flawed opinions and universal truths. Basically they are relativists as opposed to the exclusivists who they see as narrow-minded authoritarians. Understanding your own perspective relative to your audience is crucial if you are to have a meaningful dialogue in person or on this forum. Now, time for the big question: Which camp would you fall into?

When it comes to martial arts I would characterise myself as a realist more than anything else. I think the choice being presented here is a false one- people can be other than one of these two options.

 

[geezer]

...When it comes to martial arts I would characterise myself as a realist more than anything else. I think the choice being presented here is a false one- people can be other than one of these two options.

I would agree with the statement quoted above. No pigeon holing.

 

[mograph]

I think the choice being presented here is a false one- people can be other than one of these two options.

Cognitive scientists would agree, suggesting that the most adaptive approach is a mix of convergent and divergent thinking, appropriate to the context at the time.

 

[LFJ]

I need to at least hear about what you do and why before I can give it serious consideration. If it sounds convincing then I will do my best to experience it. But nobody here is interested in convincing anyone else; it is all about pushing relativism and accepting any approach as valid.

That's the feeling I get as well. Plenty of group hugging hippies. Not many healthy skeptics.

In martial arts I guess I accept what works and reject what doesn't. In this sense you might indeed characterise me as having an exclusive perspective, but I feel it would be ridiculous to do so because if MA doesn't work, then what is it? I am not interested in a hobby, or in appearing knowledgeable, or friendship, or anything else. I just want to improve my fighting ability.

Agreed. It's as if some people want to avoid being labeled "exclusivist" because it sounds negative. It just sounds practical to me from a standpoint of caring about what actually works.

 

[geezer]

QUOTE="LFJ, post: 1744190, member: 32866"]That's the feeling I get as well. Plenty of group hugging hippies. Not many healthy skeptics.[/QUOTE]

I'm actually pretty skeptical about a lot of things.




For example, I'm a bit skeptical of some of the claims certain chunners make regarding the superiority of their system over all others.

As far as being a Hippie, naw.... although I am old enough to remember when the right wing would diss anybody they didn't agree with by labeling them as such. Seems the same is still true for the WC right wing!

 

[guy b.]

For example, I'm a bit skeptical of some of the claims certain chunners make regarding the superiority of their system over all others.

But don't you see? This is a reaction informed by your "group hugging hippie" beliefs. You appear to be offended by anyone that takes a non relativist approach to martial arts. Your reaction is not the reaction of a skeptic who judges systems, ideas, claims and so on individually and critically based upon their value measured in some real way. Non relativism appears to be what offends you most.

I would argue that relativism is a useless guide in fighting. It will only get you hurt.

I am old enough to remember when the right wing would diss anybody they didn't agree with by labeling them as such. Seems the same is still true for the WC right wing!

I guess euphemisms like "group hugging hippie" are a way for people not to get too offended. Like the way KPM gets offended when real terms are used. But why get annoyed about a bit of euphemism when this whole thread is basically an attack on the man rather than the argument? Exclusivist...right wing? Lol!

Why is it wrong to discriminate between MA systems on the basis of effectiveness, coherence, simplicity, directness, or any other criteria?

 

[geezer]

Why is it wrong to discriminate between MA systems on the basis of effectiveness, coherence, simplicity, directness, or any other criteria?

I have no problem with people discriminating between what works and what doesn't. I do myself, and it definitely colors the arts I train. However, I certainly don't make such judgements based on what strangers post on this forum.

I have learned a few things from my conversations here, but I mostly hang out here for fun. And I certainly try not to be rude, trollish, or engage in "fraud-busting" other styles or instructors. That is totally contrary to our forum rules and gets people banned. Better to be respectful and enjoy the community. Sorry if that's hippie talk.

 

[guy b.]

I certainly don't make such judgements based on what strangers post on this forum.

Aren't you making character judgements in this thread based upon what strangers post on the forum?

 

[wckf92]

You appear to be offended by anyone that takes a non relativist approach to martial arts. Your reaction is not the reaction of a skeptic who judges systems, ideas, claims and so on individually and critically based upon their value measured in some real way.

Call me crazy (or psychic)...but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that some folks get upset when some practitioners of a particular lineage (guess who ) incessantly state that others' WC is:
- wrong
- inefficient
- incorrect
- not VT thinking
- fill in the rest with other elitist language...

This lineage-specific elitism ruined that other forum...just sayin.

*having said the above...in my defense...it's late and I've been drinking. hahaha

 

[KPM]

Like the way KPM gets offended when real terms are used. ?

Just what the heck are you talking about now Guy?? Your shoes are squishing!!!

 

[KPM]

Call me crazy (or psychic)...but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that some folks get upset when some practitioners of a particular lineage (guess who ) incessantly state that others' WC is:
- wrong
- inefficient
- incorrect
- not VT thinking
- fill in the rest with other elitist language...

This lineage-specific elitism ruined that other forum...just sayin.

Yes, this! Absolutely! You're not crazy or psychic. Just common sense, which a few people here fail to see despite it being pointed out to them on multiple occasions.....and not just by me!!!