An Inclusive Perspective on WC

APL76

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Also, why no dart form in Yip Man wc ?

To be fair the darts are most likely something passed on to Yuen Kay San by Fung Sui Ching and possibly peculiar to him (among wing chun people at least). Yuen Kay San taught Sum Nung the darts, however he gave up practicing them and decided that the time spent to get good at them would be better spent refining his punches. Sum Nung told my sifu about them but didn't teach him how to do them. Darts are, most likely, a lost art now, unless Sum Nung passed them on to another of his disciples, which I doubt.
 

FinalStreet

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To be fair the darts are most likely something passed on to Yuen Kay San by Fung Sui Ching and possibly peculiar to him (among wing chun people at least). Yuen Kay San taught Sum Nung the darts, however he gave up practicing them and decided that the time spent to get good at them would be better spent refining his punches. Sum Nung told my sifu about them but didn't teach him how to do them. Darts are, most likely, a lost art now, unless Sum Nung passed them on to another of his disciples, which I doubt.


Dart form :asshat::asshat::asshat:
 

FinalStreet

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To be fair the darts are most likely something passed on to Yuen Kay San by Fung Sui Ching and possibly peculiar to him (among wing chun people at least). Yuen Kay San taught Sum Nung the darts, however he gave up practicing them and decided that the time spent to get good at them would be better spent refining his punches. Sum Nung told my sifu about them but didn't teach him how to do them. Darts are, most likely, a lost art now, unless Sum Nung passed them on to another of his disciples, which I doubt.


How do you know Sum Nung "knows" about the darts if you say yourself he didn't pass it on to anyone. You said yourself he gave up. There fore he doesn't know the form. (Sum Nung) not YKS. You can't know how to throw darts (or whatever) if you didn't practice it or gave it up. Lost art only happen if nobody knows at that time.
 

APL76

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How do you know Sum Nung "knows" about the darts if you say yourself he didn't pass it on to anyone. You said yourself he gave up. There fore he doesn't know the form. (Sum Nung) not YKS. You can't know how to throw darts (or whatever) if you didn't practice it or gave it up. Lost art only happen if nobody knows at that time.

He did practice them, he learned it from Yuen Kay San, he spent quite some amount of time working at it. He knew the ins and outs of how to throw the darts (told my Sifu that everything you need to train at in order to have the foundation to throw them is contained in Sui Lim Tao) however decided that he would have to spend a large amount of his time training at them to get really good at them and figured that that time would be better spent improving something he was much more likely to use fairly often (which he did) his punches.

He described to my Sifu how they work, and told him about training at them, and how he saw Yuen Kay San actually use them. He didn't however actually teach the technique to my Sifu. So unless he passed the actual technique and training on to another of his disciples the knowledge died with Sum Nung.
 

FinalStreet

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He did practice them, he learned it from Yuen Kay San, he spent quite some amount of time working at it. He knew the ins and outs of how to throw the darts (told my Sifu that everything you need to train at in order to have the foundation to throw them is contained in Sui Lim Tao) however decided that he would have to spend a large amount of his time training at them to get really good at them and figured that that time would be better spent improving something he was much more likely to use fairly often (which he did) his punches.

He described to my Sifu how they work, and told him about training at them, and how he saw Yuen Kay San actually use them. He didn't however actually teach the technique to my Sifu. So unless he passed the actual technique and training on to another of his disciples the knowledge died with Sum Nung.

It did not die with Sum Nung. Your so inconsistent who is your Sifu anyway?
Look what you are saying man

"He described to my Sifu how they work, and told him about training at them,"

"He didn't however actually teach the technique to my Sifu."


Is this guy serious?

Loser lol
 

isshinryuronin

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It did not die with Sum Nung. Your so inconsistent who is your Sifu anyway?
Look what you are saying man

"He described to my Sifu how they work, and told him about training at them,"

"He didn't however actually teach the technique to my Sifu."


Is this guy serious?

Loser lol
There is nothing contradictory here!! Describing and telling about something does NOT equate teaching it. Take that chip off your shoulder.
 

ShortBridge

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It did not die with Sum Nung. Your so inconsistent who is your Sifu anyway?
Look what you are saying man

"He described to my Sifu how they work, and told him about training at them,"

"He didn't however actually teach the technique to my Sifu."


Is this guy serious?

Loser lol

Who is your sifu?
 

FinalStreet

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There is nothing contradictory here!! Describing and telling about something does NOT equate teaching it. Take that chip off your shoulder.


Are you dumb or blind? You don't know what teach means?

teach
/tit/
Learn to pronounce

verb
  1. 1.
    impart knowledge to or instruct (someone) as to how to do something.

So did he? Or did he not? If he did not, then how can you say he knows the dart form? Hahahaha. Your information is only he-say she-say at most. And not satisfying or concrete. But you said already he didn't. How confused are you?

Btw proof of learning the dart form. There is no dart form. Its a culmination of sum bai fat and other hand techniques. I guess you don't know that. ;)

And yes, I do mean with a dart or 'flying' object/weapon. I guess you really do know nothing.
 

APL76

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It did not die with Sum Nung. Your so inconsistent who is your Sifu anyway?
Look what you are saying man

"He described to my Sifu how they work, and told him about training at them,"

"He didn't however actually teach the technique to my Sifu."


Is this guy serious?

Loser lol

OK. If you and I sit at the dinner table with you drinking cognac, which Sum Nung loved to do by the way, and I tell you when you do a kick you kick from your front leg, if you are in gok ma, and sweep the foot in a semi circle back and up to your supporting knee, then as your foot comes past your knee you cross the centreline and then twist the kick forwards and into the centreline until you reach full extension with the toes pointed out to the side and the strike of the kick focused on your heel.

Now, did I just tell you all about how to do the kick or did I just teach you the kick?

I suspect I just told you all about how to do the kick without actually teaching you the kick because I guarantee you won't ever be able to actually do the kick based on what I just told you.
So, yes indeed one can tell someone all about how things work without actually teaching them to people. Just look at half the wing chun floating around the world today, I suspect it looks like it does because too many people can't tell the difference between being told something and actually being taught/learning something. If you can't tell the difference maybe you should toddle off and re-evaluate what you think you know rather than cast aspersions on others.

As for who my Sifu is. Well, its easy enough to find out, I don't go bandying his name about the internet because for all intents and purposes he is "retired" and he has always shunned publicity of any type anyway. But you could find out easy enough. Hell, if you were anyone involved in Yuen Kay San/Sum Nung wing chun you would already know who he is, if you pay attention to reading Renee Richie's book you would know who he is. If you had a copy of the recent publication coming out of the Guangzhou wing chun association you would see a full page article on who he is, Sh#&, if you had a copy of that you'd even see pictures of little old me in it.

And if the darts didn't die with Sum Nung, which I have always maintained that I suspect they had as I am not convinced he passed them on to any others (i.e. I have not made a definitive statement that they were never been passed on but taken pains to point out that it is merely my belief and opinion), show me someone doing wing chun today who can to them.
 

FinalStreet

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I feel you are trying to persuade me too much. ;);)

Please check your understanding of what teach and explaining means then I wonder which web-page you are going to copy and paste next from.
 

hunschuld

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Everyone who claims that some mainland wing chun is better than Yip Man or some Sifu knew more than Yip man and relies on books written in the 1990's or later always skip or never mention that there was on person that knew them all. Yip Man ,YKS,Sum Nung, Yui Choi etc. All the supposed deep research always conveniently leave this person out of their research.
I was fortunate that my first teacher was a student of both Moy Yat and Jui Wan. Jui Wan's school is the only school that Yip Man publicly endorsed and while Yip Bo Ching was Yip mans top student Jui Wan was both a friend and a peer and they trained together in Fatshan. Jui Wan said to his son and other close students that when in Fatshan Yip's wing chun was like everyone else's. They all trained and spent time together with NG Chun So. YKS Yu Choi Yip Man Jui Wan's uncle etc. Jui Wan would know since he was there and knew what everyone did. He said that after he came to Hong Kong and met up with YM Yips wing chun was different and being friends Yip told him where he learned the different things and he taught it to Jui Wan.

The fact that Yip man taught differently and streamlined things does not mean he did not know them and did not teach them to some. Yip taught 18 san sik but you find very very few students that know it. He taught 2 types of Chi Sao yet you only see one type practiced. He taught Yip Bo Ching the 12 section knife form since he was the knife man. Everyone else got 8 sections or less and some got different sections and different footwork.. Yip needed to support himself through teaching so he taught some short cuts so people could fight early on in their training and he held things back and only par celled some things out to those that could pay.
 

APL76

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I feel you are trying to persuade me too much. ;);)

Please check your understanding of what teach and explaining means then I wonder which web-page you are going to copy and paste next from.
Hang on. Are you accusing me of copying and pasting that from a web page? I didn't, but if so, whatever makes you feel good about yourself, makes no difference to me. I have tried to interact with you civilly and in good faith, if you can't do the same, that's your problem not mine.
 

FinalStreet

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Everyone who claims that some mainland wing chun is better than Yip Man or some Sifu knew more than Yip man and relies on books written in the 1990's or later always skip or never mention that there was on person that knew them all. Yip Man ,YKS,Sum Nung, Yui Choi etc. All the supposed deep research always conveniently leave this person out of their research.
I was fortunate that my first teacher was a student of both Moy Yat and Jui Wan. Jui Wan's school is the only school that Yip Man publicly endorsed and while Yip Bo Ching was Yip mans top student Jui Wan was both a friend and a peer and they trained together in Fatshan. Jui Wan said to his son and other close students that when in Fatshan Yip's wing chun was like everyone else's. They all trained and spent time together with NG Chun So. YKS Yu Choi Yip Man Jui Wan's uncle etc. Jui Wan would know since he was there and knew what everyone did. He said that after he came to Hong Kong and met up with YM Yips wing chun was different and being friends Yip told him where he learned the different things and he taught it to Jui Wan.

The fact that Yip man taught differently and streamlined things does not mean he did not know them and did not teach them to some. Yip taught 18 san sik but you find very very few students that know it. He taught 2 types of Chi Sao yet you only see one type practiced. He taught Yip Bo Ching the 12 section knife form since he was the knife man. Everyone else got 8 sections or less and some got different sections and different footwork.. Yip needed to support himself through teaching so he taught some short cuts so people could fight early on in their training and he held things back and only par celled some things out to those that could pay.

Yes but as knowledge increases the will to show hidden meaning to people even students decreases.


For example, "I.P M.A.N"
 

wckf92

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Yip taught 18 san sik but you find very very few students that know it.

That is interesting. And I'd heard this before. Do you know what the 18 san sik were or are? I was trained primarily in the san sik way so I'm curious to know what his 18 were.

He taught 2 types of Chi Sao yet you only see one type practiced.

Wow! I've NEVER heard of this. Do you know what two "types" he taught?

He taught Yip Bo Ching the 12 section knife form since he was the knife man.

Hmmm...wonder if Yip Bo Ching passed the 12 down to future generations?
 

FinalStreet

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Wing Chun will thrive as long as people practice wc, but skill is not a factor, only to high-ups as people progress
 

hunschuld

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That is interesting. And I'd heard this before. Do you know what the 18 san sik were or are? I was trained primarily in the san sik way so I'm curious to know what his 18 were.

For the exact names I would have to go search through my notebooks. Most everything comes out in other training. However the kneeling horse is notable in being a san sik but very few of his students have it in any form. Probably because as you get older it can be a pain in the knees,hip and back to perform so Ip probably stopped doing it.



Wow! I've NEVER heard of this. Do you know what two "types" he taught?
more of a rolling arm,rubbing bridges type of Chi sao



Hmmm...wonder if Yip Bo Ching passed the 12 down to future generations?
Yes and no. Yip Bo Ching died young, about 38 -40 I think in the late 60's. He taught about 6 people that were his friends. he did not charge or have a school . Ip Man told him that he needed to teach to round out his knowledge so that's why he did it. he was very wealthy and came from a wealthy family. While involved in some business negotiations in the late 90's early 2000's it turned out that one of the people I was working with was an old friend of YPC and had learned from him. When we found we both shared the same hobby and both had 12 section knife forms we swapped forms. The forms we very similar even though mine came from Lo Kwai . Our discussions gave me a lot of insight into what IP Man taught since YPC was with Ip Man from 1952 until his death and was the first to learn the dummy,pole and knives.. We also swapped other things like the San Sik.

I have no doubt other people know Yip Bo Chings wing chun however I doubt any of them ever taught publicly or for money and I think most are dead now.
I was told that after YPC died Ip Man taught WSL some additional knife sections or methods and that he asked WSL to pass these on to his son's but I don't think he ever did. WSL did not care for IP Chun at all. I have seen a couple of different knife forms from WSL students but I have no idea about what WSL really taught and to whom just gathered a lot of interesting stories in my travels
 

wckf92

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Yes and no. Yip Bo Ching died young, about 38 -40 I think in the late 60's. He taught about 6 people that were his friends. he did not charge or have a school . Ip Man told him that he needed to teach to round out his knowledge so that's why he did it. he was very wealthy and came from a wealthy family. While involved in some business negotiations in the late 90's early 2000's it turned out that one of the people I was working with was an old friend of YPC and had learned from him. When we found we both shared the same hobby and both had 12 section knife forms we swapped forms. The forms we very similar even though mine came from Lo Kwai . Our discussions gave me a lot of insight into what IP Man taught since YPC was with Ip Man from 1952 until his death and was the first to learn the dummy,pole and knives.. We also swapped other things like the San Sik.

I have no doubt other people know Yip Bo Chings wing chun however I doubt any of them ever taught publicly or for money and I think most are dead now.
I was told that after YPC died Ip Man taught WSL some additional knife sections or methods and that he asked WSL to pass these on to his son's but I don't think he ever did. WSL did not care for IP Chun at all. I have seen a couple of different knife forms from WSL students but I have no idea about what WSL really taught and to whom just gathered a lot of interesting stories in my travels

Thanks!
 
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