Application Question: Chung Mu
- Thread starter SFC JeffJ
- Start date
OP
OP
That was my original thinking, but really doesn't explain the spin, as it gives your opponent your back.
Now, let me be clear, I don't consider myself a TKD practitioner. Just something I do to help my wife teach. I'm primarily a jujutsu guy.
Jeff
wade
Black Belt
Lets see if I have this right. An attacker swings a staff at your legs and you jump into the air and spin 360 degrees to look around for other attackers before spinning back to the original attacker? Is this serious? What do you do if there are other attackers? Ignore the original attacker? Is he gonna stand there while you handle other attackers and wait his turn to then attack you? What if you go ahead and handle the original attacker, will the secondary attackers then wait till you are finished before continuing their attacks? I gotta admit I am a little confused and would like some help on this. Thanks.
Dusty
Orange Belt
the way i had it explained to me, and it is the same way with a lot of the moves, is that it is a training tool. some moves are fairly practical, others are to help train your body. this move in particular, i was told was to help in the body mechanics of a jumping back kick and to make sure your hands are in a useful position when you land. a proper jump involves bringing your knees up to your chest when jumping and this is to re enforce this.just my two cents,Dusty, Kwanjang
That would be why you land in an L-stance (rear foot stance) with a guarding block, and the next move is a strike. L-stance is commonly used, with variations, for fighting, as it is a side-facing stance.
Also, I will be the first to admit that, while all of the movements have purposes, that there is the purpose given in the Encyclopedia, and there is reality - and they don't always overlap. I have several editions of the Encyclopedia, including the complete extended version, and some of the applications are a little unrealistic, IMHO... but that's the way it's written.
Tuls are also designed to teach other things than direct application - fitness, coordination, and balance being among them. Have you ever tried to jump in a 360 degree circle and land on a specific place and in a stance? It takes a lot of practice and some significant coordination.
Also, I will be the first to admit that, while all of the movements have purposes, that there is the purpose given in the Encyclopedia, and there is reality - and they don't always overlap. I have several editions of the Encyclopedia, including the complete extended version, and some of the applications are a little unrealistic, IMHO... but that's the way it's written.
Tuls are also designed to teach other things than direct application - fitness, coordination, and balance being among them. Have you ever tried to jump in a 360 degree circle and land on a specific place and in a stance? It takes a lot of practice and some significant coordination.
OP
OP
That's pretty much the conclusion I came too. Giving your back to an apponent, with a weapon at that, just seems like a very bad idea. Interesting form though!
Jeff
I have to agree that it is a training tool to develop the ability to jump, spin, visual awareness, etc. Maybe not ultra practical but definately a way to fine tune certain skills.
Last Fearner
2nd Black Belt
Hi Jeff! I'm going to add something to the interpretation of this particular move in Chung-Mu, but first I want to agree with the others who described it from different perspectives. As all forms, there is the element of challenging your skill levels, and practicing moves to make you perform better in many ways. Also, this move does allow you to quickly survey your surroundings for multiple attackers, or more importantly, someone who might be attacking at that moment.
This is a concept which is neglected far too often in training (during one-steps, hoshinsul, or free sparring). Most skilled Martial Artists will not lose a fight to the guy in front of them, but the one that they didn't realize was behind them. I often teach students to intentionally realign their position, or spin their attacker in a 360 degree circle while using a joint lock, in order to gain a full field of view, and avoid a second or third attacker sneaking up on you from behind.
Now, as for the reality of the techniques in movement #18 and 19 of Chung Mu, I believe they can be used in real self defense. There are always many possible interpretations of each move, as they can be used for multiple purposes in practical application. The way that I was originally taught this move, back in the stone-age, can be described as follows. In movement #18, you are executing a "U-Shape block." This is where both hands are thrust forward (usually from the rear hip) in an open arc to intercept a staff held in a vertical position. There are actually two different hand positions that can be applied. One has the top hand palm down, which we always called the "U-shape block." The other has the top hand palm up, which we called the "U-shape grasp."
In Chung-Mu, we always used the "U-shape grasp" with both palms facing up. Your attacker is thrusting a staff toward you in a vertical position (such as in an upward groin strike followed by a downward strike on the head. You lunge your stance forward to shorten, and impede their assault. You block high and low on the staff with the arcs of both hands at the same time, and grasp the staff. You then jump in the air, forcefully ripping the staff out of your opponent's grip. As you spin 360 degrees, you toss the staff away to the 180 degree rear direction, then land back in the same spot in a knife-hand guarding block, ready to repel any attack from this weaponless opponent. In the form, you then advance forward with your next counter-attack.
While the jumping could be described as avoiding a low staff attack, it would be most likely from a second opponent, and not the one you are facing. If you were engaged with the first opponent, who thrust the vertical staff, and you had grasped it with a "U-Shape" block, you could simple kick him, or rip the staff away without jumping. However, if a second person was to your side or rear, and swung a staff at your legs, you could jump to avoid that strike while ripping the first staff loose. Spinning in the air while doing this simply helps with the torque of removing the staff from the first attacker's hands, and it keeps all other attacker's at a distance as you flail the staff that you now hold.
In real life, your choice to land while holding the staff, and fight with it, or throw it away and land with a knife-hand guarding block might depend on your expertise with a staff as opposed to your fighting skills, as well as the intimidation to your opponent. It might prove to be much smother, and more effective to just get rid of the staff, maybe hitting the second attacker as you throw it away, and then land and fight your opponents with no obstructions in your hands.
Either way, this is most definitely a smooth move, and very impressive when done correctly. Try it sometime with your partner in class attacking with a staff. Just be sure you have room to throw the staff without hurting anyone, or breaking anything. Maybe better to try it out doors!
CM D.J. Eisenhart
That's the cool thing about Tae Kwon Do: there's the "cool" factor & a whole lot more:ultracool
searcher
Senior Master
zDom
Senior Master
It certainly DOES look cool.
Once in college I was taking a coaching course with a bunch of athletes and got the inevitable "show us some of that karate stuff."
So I did the jump 360 from Chung Moo, landing perfectly balanced in the same spot I jumped from, then grinned for the next 10 minutes as I watched them all try to duplicate the feat
Once in college I was taking a coaching course with a bunch of athletes and got the inevitable "show us some of that karate stuff."
So I did the jump 360 from Chung Moo, landing perfectly balanced in the same spot I jumped from, then grinned for the next 10 minutes as I watched them all try to duplicate the feat
Last Fearner
2nd Black Belt
...then grinned for the next 10 minutes as I watched them all try to duplicate the feat
Don't you mean you "watched them all try to duplicate the feet!" :lfao:
Last Fearner
allpet
Yellow Belt
Well, if it's the one were you are landing in a low stance with cossed feet and a double low block were you are crossing your wrists, it's originally for jumping on top of someone you have just thrown to the ground, and the hands are doing a (fairly standard) choking technique by pulling on both collars to seal of the veins on both sides of the neck.
