Application of Taegeuk Sa Jang; steps 10B and 12B

[skribs]

Taegeuk Sa Jang has one particular move that I find confusing. It's in the horizontal set furthest to the front of your starting position: the inside block with the rear hand in a back stance.

The reason this move in particular confuses me, is because typically a block serves the purpose of pushing an attack away from your body. An inside block done with the leading hand or done in a forward-facing stance makes sense, as you are intercepting the blow before it reaches you. Any type of outward block with your rear hand also makes sense, as you're pushing a blow away from your body.

But this move in particular seems designed to bring a punch more on target by taking something that would have gone outside and bringing it in.

I'm having a hard time visualizing this movement in a real scenario.

I am trying to load videos on Youtube which discuss the application of the motion. The videos I got to load a few minutes ago didn't include this technique. And now YouTube has decided it doesn't like the computer I'm on and is refusing to load more of these discussion clips.

 

[paitingman]

are you talking about after the 280 degree turn?

The momtong an maki after the front kick?

 

[skribs]

are you talking about after the 280 degree turn?

The momtong an maki after the front kick?

I think so. I don't know the Korean names for the techniques.

 

[paitingman]

I think so. I don't know the Korean names for the techniques.

Are we talking about the segment right around 30 seconds?

 

[skribs]

Are we talking about the segment right around 30 seconds?

Yes, that one. Although this guy has his shoulders fairly square in his block. The other videos I've seen have a typical back stance profile where the rear shoulder is held back.

 

[paitingman]

Yes, that one. Although this guy has his shoulders fairly square in his block. The other videos I've seen have a typical back stance profile where the rear shoulder is held back.

I've always been taught and seen it done as in the video.

That's the "standard" way.

I have played with this movement a bit in my training. I was originally taught it as an odd sort of joint attack.

Say you are standing left foot back. The first block blocks your opponents right hand punch with your right. You grab with the right hand and hang onto their arm as you deliver a kick and then smash their elbow with the left hand. But I've been shown a few ways to do it since then.

What have you been able to make of it?

 

[paitingman]

I guess if you were going to kick and place your foot behind you again, but a strike was incoming as you drew your foot back, it would be awkward to use the non-kicking-side hand. As your left leg swings back, it feels more natural to be moving your left hand forward and use that, rather than try to use the other arm.
I'll explore more. If you learn anything, please share.

 

[WaterGal]

Honestly, I've always figured that the goal of this part was really to train the kick->back stance transition, which is difficult & requires decent balance, and the middle block was thrown in there "just because". I feel like maybe.... an assisted outside block (with the back hand at the solar plexus, like in Taegeuk 8) would be a "better" technique to use as a block there? But maybe they wanted to keep it simple and not introduce too many new techniques in one form.

 

[jks9199]

Why are you locked into it being a block...

Looking at the sequence, I see a set of three moves that seem connected:
1. Turning into an outside block
2. Kick
3. Inward block -- or could it be a strike?

You've stopped an attack, countered with a kick -- and (especially if the kick were to the stomach rather than the face...) then what? Block? What are you blocking? But... if they're coming forward after eating that kick.. could you be smashing their face?

 

[skribs]

I've always been taught and seen it done as in the video.

That's the "standard" way.

I have played with this movement a bit in my training. I was originally taught it as an odd sort of joint attack.

Say you are standing left foot back. The first block blocks your opponents right hand punch with your right. You grab with the right hand and hang onto their arm as you deliver a kick and then smash their elbow with the left hand. But I've been shown a few ways to do it since then.

What have you been able to make of it?

Everything I've learned in TKD self defense and in Hapkido is that you'd step forward with the kick in that scenario, so that you have a better leverage point for the strike.

I guess if you were going to kick and place your foot behind you again, but a strike was incoming as you drew your foot back, it would be awkward to use the non-kicking-side hand. As your left leg swings back, it feels more natural to be moving your left hand forward and use that, rather than try to use the other arm.
I'll explore more. If you learn anything, please share.

If I kick with my right leg, and pull my right leg back, it makes sense to block with my left hand as my hips are rotating that direction. If I kick with my right leg and step forward, it makes sense to block with my right hand. (This is assuming an inward block. An outward block would largely be the opposite).

Honestly, I've always figured that the goal of this part was really to train the kick->back stance transition, which is difficult & requires decent balance, and the middle block was thrown in there "just because". I feel like maybe.... an assisted outside block (with the back hand at the solar plexus, like in Taegeuk 8) would be a "better" technique to use as a block there? But maybe they wanted to keep it simple and not introduce too many new techniques in one form.

I think there are a LOT of blocks that would work there while still retaining the "kick -> back to back stance" vibe. Your suggestion of an augmented outside block is good. So is any double block which focuses on the front hand, any single hand block with the front hand, or any outward block with the front hand. Actually the diamond block in Keumgang (I've gotten the names wrong before, so I'm specifically thinking of the block in crane stance) would work great for that transition. You're probably right about it being too complex for Taegeuk 4, though.

 

[skribs]

So...I was having trouble with YouTube at work. Now that I re-watched the video I watched before, I noticed that he did the block the same way it is in this video. He goes back stance, but squares his shoulders. That makes the block understandable to me.

It's a very strange back stance and might take me some time to get.

 

[paitingman]

Everything I've learned in TKD self defense and in Hapkido is that you'd step forward with the kick in that scenario, so that you have a better leverage point for the strike.

People kick and place the foot behind all the time. Watch people throw a Teep kick or a front kick in mma.

If I kick with my right leg, and pull my right leg back, it makes sense to block with my left hand as my hips are rotating that direction. If I kick with my right leg and step forward, it makes sense to block with my right hand. (This is assuming an inward block. An outward block would largely be the opposite).

It makes more sense if your shoulders aren't rotating so much and remaining square.


What did your instructor say about the application?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Part of the problem is your insistence that a block is only a block. It's not. It's also a strike. Even as a block, the idea that it will, in application, stop at the same point as in forms is ludicrous. If you're using it as a block, you'd bring it as far across the body as needed to make it effective.
Try thinking of that move as a strike and things will clear up.
Also, from a purely forms standpoint, squaring the shoulders in that move is absolutely correct.

 

[skribs]

People kick and place the foot behind all the time. Watch people throw a Teep kick or a front kick in mma.

I specifically mean if you're going for an armbar following the block in the previous step.

It makes more sense if your shoulders aren't rotating so much and remaining square.

What did your instructor say about the application?

These are not currently part of our curriculum. We haven't gotten there yet.

Part of the problem is your insistence that a block is only a block. It's not. It's also a strike. Even as a block, the idea that it will, in application, stop at the same point as in forms is ludicrous. If you're using it as a block, you'd bring it as far across the body as needed to make it effective.
Try thinking of that move as a strike and things will clear up.
Also, from a purely forms standpoint, squaring the shoulders in that move is absolutely correct.

1. If it says "block" I want to at least find a way to block with it
2. As a strike, the way I described in my OP wouldn't make sense either
3. Since you realize that the stance I described in my OP was wrong, the rest doesn't matter. It makes sense as a block to me with the correct stance.
4. I still posit there is a difference between a block and a strike. There are similar motions, but the details are different. Just like how a sword and a shield are different weapons, a block and a strike are slightly different techniques. I may need to make a video on this.

 

[dvcochran]

Taegeuk Sa Jang has one particular move that I find confusing. It's in the horizontal set furthest to the front of your starting position: the inside block with the rear hand in a back stance.

The reason this move in particular confuses me, is because typically a block serves the purpose of pushing an attack away from your body. An inside block done with the leading hand or done in a forward-facing stance makes sense, as you are intercepting the blow before it reaches you. Any type of outward block with your rear hand also makes sense, as you're pushing a blow away from your body.

But this move in particular seems designed to bring a punch more on target by taking something that would have gone outside and bringing it in.

I'm having a hard time visualizing this movement in a real scenario.

I am trying to load videos on Youtube which discuss the application of the motion. The videos I got to load a few minutes

It is a unique form movement. But it is a very easy move. It is a reverse-hand "inside" block. But it is done in a back stance so what is happening is a body block with the Outside of the arm. Most of us do it all the time sparring and never have to think about it. It just keeps the your body from taking the hit.

 

[Danny T]

But the term 'block' is a misnomer. It isn't a block but a movement. Many potential applications within the movement that is refer to as inside block or outside block, etc.

 

[dvcochran]

Just realized I messed up this post. Hope @skribs see it.

 

[skribs]

But the term 'block' is a misnomer. It isn't a block but a movement. Many potential applications within the movement that is refer to as inside block or outside block, etc.

I still posit that 99% of the time, if you want to strike instead of block, the motion will be slightly different. That's because a block is designed to cover a wide area and prevent a strike from coming in, while a strike is intended to focus your power onto a specific point.

For example, with a knife-hand block vs. a knife-hand strike:

• An inward block will have a straight wrist, where an inward chop will have the hand bent back. The straight wrist gives you bigger vertical coverage (from elbow to blade of hand instead of just elbow to wrist) and make it less likely you miss the punch. The angled wrist gives you a tighter blade to hit with.
• An outward block (i.e. with the palm out) will feature a more vertical forearm and will be more from the shoulder. An outward strike will have a more horizontal arm and come more from the snap of the elbow. If you're closer, and you need to keep the arm bent in order to strike, then it would be the same snap motion, just with your arm at an angle.

To say that similar mechanics can be applied, I'd agree with. But to say they are the same thing, or that the exact motion can (and should) be used interchangeably for different applications, is like saying a sports car and a pickup are the same thing, because they can both drive you to work.

 

[dvcochran]

I still posit that 99% of the time, if you want to strike instead of block, the motion will be slightly different. That's because a block is designed to cover a wide area and prevent a strike from coming in, while a strike is intended to focus your power onto a specific point.

For example, with a knife-hand block vs. a knife-hand strike:

• An inward block will have a straight wrist, where an inward chop will have the hand bent back. The straight wrist gives you bigger vertical coverage (from elbow to blade of hand instead of just elbow to wrist) and make it less likely you miss the punch. The angled wrist gives you a tighter blade to hit with.
• An outward block (i.e. with the palm out) will feature a more vertical forearm and will be more from the shoulder. An outward strike will have a more horizontal arm and come more from the snap of the elbow. If you're closer, and you need to keep the arm bent in order to strike, then it would be the same snap motion, just with your arm at an angle.

To say that similar mechanics can be applied, I'd agree with. But to say they are the same thing, or that the exact motion can (and should) be used interchangeably for different applications, is like saying a sports car and a pickup are the same thing, because they can both drive you to work.

I completely disagree with the outward block bullet.

 

[skribs]

I completely disagree with the outward block bullet.

It's like the difference between a front snap kick and a front push kick. They are similar motions, but there is a slightly different technique to them, and they have a slightly different way in which they affect the opponent. If you want to strike your opponent for maximum damage or to the head for a KO, you use a snap kick. If you want to shove them into something, get them the right distance away for a follow-up attack, or simply get them away from you, you use the snap kick.