Anyone do weight training on top of MA?

JowGaWolf

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Not trying to be disrespect, you know UFC fighters know there is no rules in real fights, it is equal opportunity.
There are a few MMA fighters who have gotten the bad end of a street fight. They lost the fight because there were no rules. You can look them up to see what they thought about their street fight. I think you will be surprised at what they say. They understand that what they do is sport.
 
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Alan0354

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I took my flexibility for granted so I didn't do anything to maintain it. I should have made friends with senior citizens when I was young.
Yeh, it's important to stretch. I do it 4 times a week. Here are two pictures

Stretching 2.jpg
Stretching 1.jpg


I stretch my back also.
 
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Alan0354

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There are a few MMA fighters who have gotten the bad end of a street fight. They lost the fight because there were no rules. You can look them up to see what they thought about their street fight. I think you will be surprised at what they say. They understand that what they do is sport.
You mean TMA is so bad they have to resort to eyes poking, breaking fingers to win? That they cannot just fight clean and win?

Like you said, there is always exceptions. I have been hearing all these excuses for so many years. Isn't it about time for a change. It's big money if anyone can win.

Nothing is perfect, it's the closest of all already. Like I said, go win some fights.
 
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JowGaWolf

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You mean TMA is so bad they have to resort to eyes poking, breaking fingers to win?
That's what fighting in the streets is about. Just like you training to hit some one with a cane. Just like some people get punched and other people get shot or stabbed.
 

J. Pickard

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Strength is good. Strength and technique is better. If I could wish for only one, it would be better technique.
I dunno, man. If I had to choose perfect technique or have the strength of Superman I would choose the latter. I don't care how good your technique is, it isn't working against that guy unless you have comparable strength. I know that's an extreme (and impossible) case but you said if you could only wish for one and if it's gonna be a wish go big or go home.
 
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Alan0354

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I dunno, man. If I had to choose perfect technique or have the strength of Superman I would choose the latter. I don't care how good your technique is, it isn't working against that guy unless you have comparable strength. I know that's an extreme (and impossible) case but you said if you could only wish for one and if it's gonna be a wish go big or go home.
I heard too many times from the old school people kept saying strength is not important, I even heard too much muscle would hinder the technique and slow one down. It's common to see those masters are so thin back in the days. It's very different today, starting with Bruce Lee 50 years ago that emphasized on weight training. Like I said many times before, look at those fighters in UFC, it's very noticeable that they do weight training. Also boxing and other sports changed in the last 30 years.

Let's say two people of same height, one is very good in MA but only 140lbs(skin and bones), the other one is 200lbs lean and do extensive weight training. Let's just say the muscle guy train in fighting for like 8 months to a year, not an expert. I am sure in point sparring, the lean guy with good MA will kick the butt of the big guy. BUT if it is a real fight, I definitely put my bet on the big muscle guy that only has 8months to a year of fight training.

Of cause, if the muscle guy doesn't have any training, then it's hard to say, just a few months of fight training can make a day and night different if combine with strength.

I can first hand say from doing judo for a year. It is very easy to throw someone down if the other person doesn't know anything in judo. BUT if the person just know the basic of resisting from being thrown, it's is so much harder to throw the guy if the guy is strong. Huge difference.

Also look at the fight between Royce Gracie and Matt Huges. Who dare to question the skill of Gracie. Huges whooped Gracie in about 1min. Gracie did not appear to have muscles, he just got out muscled by Huges, Huges literally flatten Gracie and rained down punches until the referee stopped the fight. That was pitiful. I paid $30 for that 1min!!!
 
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Star Dragon

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I always supplemented my martial arts practice with weight training. The two belong to each other, for me personally.

When it comes to fighting prowess, there's no question that well-trained muscles will give you an edge. And it's not just about hitting harder... You will move differently overall, having a fair amount of weight training under your belt.

However, raw strength is no substitute for sloppy technique! In many cases, improving your body mechanics will give you a greater gain in power than any amount of resistance training would. That could actually be said to be the essence of martial arts training on the physical level: Learning how to use what strength you have to maximum effect.

As far as self-defence is concerned, there is yet more to consider. Functional SD involves exploiting your adversary's weaknesses. If you are thinking of it as setting your strength against theirs, you are on the wrong track, in my view. How are you going to teach women to effectively defend themselves against men twice their size and four times their physical strength on such premises? You've got to emphasize evasiveness and hitting vital targets here... That kind of thing. And this holds true for functional self-defence in general.

That being said, having more strenght equals having more options when in a critical situation. For example, holding your adversary down rather than knocking them out. Or stunning them by a punch to the solar plexus rather than crushing their throat. More power to you!

At any rate, fitness matters, and it doesn't include only strength. Flexibility has been mentioned as important in this thread, and I fully agree. This is not just about being able to kick people in the head, even though it's nice to have that skill. :D Again, it's about being able to move smoothely and swiftly overall, and to keep this ability in the long run.

If anything, weight training and stretching become more important as you grow older. But be reasonable and don't overdo them. And give your body enough time to recover. You want your exercise to be supportive of, not detrimental to your health.

While I was all about heavy lifting in my younger days, now that I am in my 50's, I prefer a more mixed approach. Kettlebells are great. Wrist and ankle weights as well as resistance bands are useful too. Add on some good old body weight exercises for good measure.

I really enjoy experimenting with different kinds of equipment and training methods, and seeing in what way they help improve my power specifically. Giving your body a new type of challenge will keep it on the ball.

Often, I will make those different kinds of exercises part of a Tabata routine. Tabata and related forms of HIIT are excellent ways of exercising power, stamina, and flexibility - even all at the same time!
 

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I dunno, man. If I had to choose perfect technique or have the strength of Superman I would choose the latter. I don't care how good your technique is, it isn't working against that guy unless you have comparable strength. I know that's an extreme (and impossible) case but you said if you could only wish for one and if it's gonna be a wish go big or go home.
Not really. Strength certainly plays a role. But I cannot count how many people I've had to take down in the ED that were without a doubt stronger than I. I'm not saying a 9 year old is going to have much success against an adult. I'm saying that, body mechanics, positioning, and leverage can often make up for a difference in strength. Especially in the non-sport world, where most physical conflicts are over in seconds.
 

JowGaWolf

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I always supplemented my martial arts practice with weight training. The two belong to each other, for me personally.
Weight training and strength building has always been and is always a part of Martial Arts training.

People just confuse big muscles as the answer to being a stronger fighter and better fighter. Because of this they end up developing their strength the wrong way. They end up up with bigger muscles that begins to restrict movement. Here's an example.


There is a reason why all fighters have a similar build. The activity dictates the muscle build. If a person is only lifting weights to build strength for fighting then they are not doing the fighting movement that will dictate how the muscles should be built. When martial artist make the argument about building muscle, this is what I assume they are talking about. I'm only saying this because I have never had a martial arts teacher that was weak. It was totally opposite. They were crazy strong, but they weren't build like body builders which made it "crazy." They look like everyday people but had some incredible power and strength. Could they fight? From what I hear from others, yes. But they weren't weak by any definition.

If there is a question about Strength and Martial Arts. Then it should be: What is the best way to build strength for Martial Arts?
 
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Alan0354

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Weight training and strength building has always been and is always a part of Martial Arts training.

People just confuse big muscles as the answer to being a stronger fighter and better fighter. Because of this they end up developing their strength the wrong way. They end up up with bigger muscles that begins to restrict movement. Here's an example.


There is a reason why all fighters have a similar build. The activity dictates the muscle build. If a person is only lifting weights to build strength for fighting then they are not doing the fighting movement that will dictate how the muscles should be built. When martial artist make the argument about building muscle, this is what I assume they are talking about. I'm only saying this because I have never had a martial arts teacher that was weak. It was totally opposite. They were crazy strong, but they weren't build like body builders which made it "crazy." They look like everyday people but had some incredible power and strength. Could they fight? From what I hear from others, yes. But they weren't weak by any definition.

If there is a question about Strength and Martial Arts. Then it should be: What is the best way to build strength for Martial Arts?
That's to the extreme, 99.9% of people that do weight training never look like that even though they are very strong. This is not the right way for reasoning. I've been training in Gold's Gym for like 15 years, I've seen very strong people, I never saw anyone look close to be like that. But I've seen a lot of people pushing over 300lbs bench.

People tend to think black and white, but in real life, it's all in the grey area. Like I would never comment on someone expert on MA against one never fight but all muscle. If anyone talk about fighting, it is assumed people at least have some experience in MA. Like I explained in detail the strong one at least has 8months to a year fight training. Same as when talking about weight training, one don't assume they look like those in your video.

BTW, there were quite a few people in Gold's Gym that train in MA, not to black belt level, but they did put in some time. So don't assume the bigger guy don't know how to fight.
 
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JowGaWolf

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That's to the extreme, 99.9% of people that do weight training never look like that even though they are very strong. This is not the right way for reasoning. I've been training in Gold's Gym for like 15 years, I've seen very strong people, I never saw anyone look close to be like that. But I've seen a lot of people pushing over 300lbs bench.
I had to go to the extreme to show that there is a limit where more muscle benefits MA. In reality one doesn't have to be that big before muscle becomes counter-productive. For example, having muscle that makes you top heavy will cause problems in MA and normal people hit that on a regular in the gym without being big like a professional bodybuilder.

I've seen people in my gym who are big have the weakest punches punches on the bags. They often have mobility issues where their core is strong for bending but not for twisting.

The younger generation that works out focuses on mobility. They tend to workout differently than the older guys who workout. There are alot of skinny strong people at my gym. At least at night. There was one guy that looked look a professional body builder but I haven't seen him lately. He may be working out during the day now. .
 
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Alan0354

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I had to go to the extreme to show that there is a limit where more muscle benefits MA. In reality one doesn't have to be that big before muscle becomes counter-productive. For example, having muscle that makes you top heavy will cause problems in MA and normal people hit that on a regular in the gym without being big like a professional bodybuilder.

I've seen people in my gym who are big have the weakest punches punches on the bags. They often have mobility issues where their core is strong for bending but not for twisting.

The younger generation that works out focuses on mobility. They tend to workout differently than the older guys who workout. There are alot of skinny strong people at my gym. At least at night. There was one guy that looked look a professional body builder but I haven't seen him lately. He may be working out during the day now. .
I don't think it's fair to go to extreme, people can get the wrong idea just like what I heard in the older days that muscle is not good, slow you down and all that. It's not black or white.

1) If talking about fighting, first, the guy with muscle MUST have at least few months to a year of MA training, you cannot compare with someone that never spend a day in MA and just weights. It will make a day and night difference just training for a year.

2) 99.9% of people train in weight don't look like those you show that can get in the way. I never see anyone look like that all these years in a workman's gym. So it's deceiving to use that as an example.

3) I am not talking about sparring. Of cause the expert in MA can make a fool out of the big guy in sparring where you really don't mix it up. I am talking for real fights.

You said the muscle guy can't punch, did he ever learn how to punch? If not, that's not a good way to judge. Even anyone learn a few months should know better how to use the body already.

Like I said many times, I believe in 50:50 training, that's what I've been doing. Since I already have a few years in MA, at my age, a few more years is not going to make me that much better. That's the reason I said if I have to choose either MA or weight, it's a no brainer, I drop MA in a heart beat. Weight not only keep me in shape, it fixes a lot of aches and pain also.

You need both.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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the other one is 200lbs lean and do extensive weight training. Let's just say the muscle guy train in fighting for like 8 months to a year, not an expert.
You are only talking about the striking art. In the wrestling art, the 200 lbs guy with 8 months of training may not be able to deal with a good take down.

To knock down a 200 lbs guy may be hard. To take down a 200 lb guy is not hard (if you know how to borrow force).

My teacher used weight training all his life. One time my teacher asked me to bite onto his forearm, my teeth could not sink into his muscle. I respect people who has muscle during old age. At 74 years old, he had 45 inch chest.

Chang_muscle.jpg

Chang_muscle.jpg


Chang_muscle_1.jpg
 
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Alan0354

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You are only talking about the striking art. In the wrestling art, the 200 lbs guy with 8 months of training may not be able to deal with a good take down.

To knock down a 200 lbs guy may be hard. To take down a 200 lb guy is not hard (if you know how to borrow force).
You can keep telling yourself about this. I learn judo before, so I know enough about judo. All your stuffs are JUDO. I definitely would not want to go against a 200lbs fit guy that know wrestling. You really think it's like those demo videos you show that the guy literally jump up to let the the guy to throw him down?!!!

I did enough demo when I was in judo as my instructor was very famous and we did shows. I know how fake the show demos are!!!

I don't know whether I still have to auto response to defend from Judo takedowns, it's been 50 years already. But in those days, I don't think you can count on throwing me that easily just because we learn throw defense and it's natural. Just a few months of training make a HUGE difference.

AND don't tell me strength is not important. I've been in Judo class and we have people of different sizes and strength. I can assure you the stronger guy had a lot of advantage over a smaller weaker guy. When the opponent know throw defense, you literally have to out muscle the guy to throw him over most of the time.

One more thing, why most of the MA people always talk like the opponent does NOT know any fighting or MA? Of cause, if the opponent doesn't know anything, then you definitely have the advantage. I NEVER ASSUME the other guy doesn't know anything and I think it's a MISTAKE to assume the other person doesn't know anything. That's when people got their butt kicked.
 
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Alan0354

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That's pretty good.
Actually those pictures are a year old, I think I am doing better now since I put in more time. Here are 3 that I took today:
Stretching 2.jpg

I definitely can split wider than a year ago compare to the old picture.

Stretching 3.jpg

I am practice front split, still long way to go.

Stretching 4.jpg

Stretching for the back.
 

J. Pickard

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Not really. Strength certainly plays a role. But I cannot count how many people I've had to take down in the ED that were without a doubt stronger than I. I'm not saying a 9 year old is going to have much success against an adult. I'm saying that, body mechanics, positioning, and leverage can often make up for a difference in strength. Especially in the non-sport world, where most physical conflicts are over in seconds.
I don't care how good your technique is, it won't work against superman unless you have comparable strength. I say superman, I meant literal superman. A hypothetical being for a hypothetical situation. If you want to go more realistic, Haf臘籀r Bj繹rnsson is big and strong enough (literally the strongest man in the world) that the average person will not beat him no matter the technique. There are videos of this dude letting professional grapplers try their technique against him and he just muscles through it. Technique can definitely overcome someone stronger but not when the gap is that drastic.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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There are videos of this dude letting professional grapplers try their technique against him and he just muscles through it. Technique can definitely overcome someone stronger but not when the gap is that drastic.
No matter how strong a person may be, a good foot sweep can always take him down.

Here is an example that technique can defeat pure strength.

When A pulls B and B resists. If A releases his pulling, B's own resisting force can throw B down. So when your opponent wants to move back and if you help him to move back more than he wants to, that's technique.

It's like when this competition begins, if you cut the rope, people on both ends will fall. The stronger they are, the harder they fall.

bai_he.jpg
 
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JowGaWolf

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There are videos of this dude letting professional grapplers try their technique against him and he just muscles through it. Technique can definitely overcome someone stronger but not when the gap is that drastic.
Depends on what is being done. Grappling or striking. If I had fight a much larger and stronger opponent then I would rather play the striking game.. Easy choice for me. I've been there and done it. Grappling the same person would be a different story for me. 1. grappling isn't my strong suit and being put at a tripple advantage of that, size, and strength is just going to be near impossible. The problem with grappling and size is that the size changes how the opponent's limbs must be manipulated. Add strength and it's that much of a upward hill.

I think bigger and stronger opponents can be beat but only with a different set of techniques specifically designed for bigger and stronger opponents. By default martial arts applications is idea when the person is the same height as you. That same leverage of limbs can't be applied when the limbs are drastically longer.
 

isshinryuronin

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Since I already have a few years in MA, at my age, a few more years is not going to make me that much better.
I don't understand this. Are you saying that you cannot get any better due to age, or that you have so much skill and experience that there is no room for improvement? I assure you, both statements are wrong.

I have more than a few years, in life as well as MA, and over the past few years I have come to understand my art more than the previous 40 years. And, I have improved in some ways physically as well (thanks to that greater understanding).

If you are a 3rd, 4th, 5th or even 6th degree black belt and think you're at the end of the road, your education has been lacking for not giving you the tools to realize how much more there is to learn and even improve certain physical abilities and skills.

You are free to feel satisfied with whatever level you're at. I'm a believer in free will. Weights are good (I had a good workout this morning). And they are simple to do. IMO, MA takes a lot more conviction and will power. Doing weights is the easier path. But the harder path often yields greater rewards.
 
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