Any suggestions for Iron Palm / Iron Bone training?

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by chufeng
Ken,

When I studied TaeKwonDo (I hate to admit it, but I was in a martial arts desert at the time it was long before my Chinese MA experience) I was told to hit the Korean version of the makiwara...the teacher had afixed a rope-wrapped piece of wood to on of the supporting posts for a wall (no give)...after ten solid punches, I had, in fact, split the skin and tendon over my knuckle...I showed the teacher; he was very happy, "That will make an awesome callous...go hit it some more" So, I hit it some more...fact is, it didn't hurt much...traumatic anesthesia...It hurt like crazy the next day, though (and I did NOT hit the makiwara at the next training session).

When I cut my forearm, accidently, I was in the first 70 or so days of iron-palm training...I didn't wan't to start over so I continued to practice and train...every slap on the bag really hurt...every block I did with that arm, during regular class, was excruciating...but I did it anyways...people can overcome the body's instinct to avoid painful stimuli...

The first example showed stupidity on my teacher's part for not understanding real makiwara training and stupidity on my part for hitting the darn thing after I injured myself...

The second example had no lasting ill effects...some might call it stupid...however, I used overcoming the pain as another training tool.

Regards...
chufeng:asian:

Yes. After the initial pain, the endorphin kicks in and you can keep on going for the rest of the session. I can really rip a layer of skin off my knuckles if I am not careful. We all have been there where our ignorance and bravado took the better of us and we went ahead ignoring the cuts and wounds. The result is a blood stained canvas bag and LONGER time off for recuperation.

However, the next day, things are not the same anymore. By now the bruise and injury have manifested. Further agitating the wound would be excruxiatingly painful. It is arguable that for some people they can continue to proceed with the same intensity. My experience is the longer your ignore your injury, the nastier the wound becomes and the longer time out needed to recovery. A bad move, all in all. It is better to take care of the small wound ASAP. B/c then it would only take the shortest time out for healing. Granted, some people might forge ahead, and damn the torpedo. (Hell, afterall that is how successful special forces recruits make it through the selection process). I would say that 99% of the IronPalm trainees would either find the pain from the injury intolerable or simply ease back due to inability to train with the required intensity, as a result of the injury. I realize that this a theoretical argument in support of my assertion that the deforming and detrimental side effect of punching gravel bag is not a definite outcome as generally perceived. Hence is not an absolute.

Yes, part of the training and conditioning is to overcome pain. However there are different types of pain. Not all can be overcome. And may result in permanent injury if attempted. I am sure you are well aware of this point.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by chufeng
Actually, authentic jow recipes are not so common...emphasis, authentic...

I'd be happy to send you a list of our ingredients...you can mix a batch and analyze what's actually in it at the molecular level...

The claims that Master Chen made were that the jow increased protective and healing qi to the areas it was used on...he also said it helped prevent blood clots from forming...

How do you prove the first two claims scientifically?

But, if you're serious about looking at what is actually in the solution, I'm willing to help you by providing our ingredients list.

:asian:
chufeng

There are 12 compounds involved. You can have an assay done to list the chemicals in the solution. (Which would be more than 12 for sure.) That would be the simple part. However, to identify the therapeutic effect of each one, as well as all of them in synergy, would take resources (monetary and expertise) that are well beyond my scope. Of course, being a professional in medicine, you are aware of how much resources needed. On the bright side, such a project might result in discovering a new treatment for arthiritis, for example.

As to prove the claims by Master Chen, I have no idea how to proceed.

In reference to Yiliquan1's description of how it works, I find that skeptically intriguing. The reason is, there is only one class of chemical that can deliver such effect. It is a controlled substance, hence illegal to possess and administer. And even with this chemical, applying it transdermally would take more than 24 hrs for the effect to be noticeable. It needs to build up in blood concentration in order for its anti-fatigue and enhanced recovery effect to be noticeable. We have researched and experimented successfully in applying such chemicals via transdermal delivery. The result is nothing short of breathtaking, in terms of performance gain and accelerated recuperation/recovery. Needless to say, there are side-effects. Testicle atrophy, to name one. lol (Happily, we have also discovered a remedy to that nasty side effect.) Nevertheless, it is a controlled substance and illegal to administer. So it is a moot point. I won't discuss it at the forum, but I am sure you know what chemicals I am referring to.

I don't want this to be turn into " are you calling me a liar?" kind of nonsense. But you do have a recipe that sounds rather amazing. I am happy for you.

 

[chufeng]

I did not want to insinuate that you were calling anyone a liar...far from it...I thought you might be interested in looking at the recipe.

I agree with you that most off the shelf recipes are really designed to act as temporary analgesics to relieve overworked or injured joints and muscles...not the type of jow one needs to employ when doing real iron palm training.

The biggest risk of injury is not from physical injury, but injury to the energy system...six meridians either start or stop in the hand. That's half of the paired acupuncture meridians...Master Chen stated that one would risk stagnation of qi if one did iron palm without the jow...

I once questioned the wisdom of some of the things that were handed down and I cut myself rather badly as a result...I now do things as they were transmitted...I use the jow before and after and also do some qigong after iron-palm training...does it make a difference??? I'm not willing to test it to find out (that is, I'm not willing to see what ill effects might occur if I did not use the jow).

Regards
:asian:
chufeng

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by chufeng
I did not want to insinuate that you were calling anyone a liar...far from it...I thought you might be interested in looking at the recipe.

I agree with you that most off the shelf recipes are really designed to act as temporary analgesics to relieve overworked or injured joints and muscles...not the type of jow one needs to employ when doing real iron palm training.

The biggest risk of injury is not from physical injury, but injury to the energy system...six meridians either start or stop in the hand. That's half of the paired acupuncture meridians...Master Chen stated that one would risk stagnation of qi if one did iron palm without the jow...

I once questioned the wisdom of some of the things that were handed down and I cut myself rather badly as a result...I now do things as they were transmitted...I use the jow before and after and also do some qigong after iron-palm training...does it make a difference??? I'm not willing to test it to find out (that is, I'm not willing to see what ill effects might occur if I did not use the jow).

Regards
:asian:
chufeng

Regarding energy system, ie the meridians that originate from or terminate at the hands, it is out of my league. I have heard contradictory evidence regarding this subject. For instance, I have read about GV26 (correct me if I remember the point incorrectly) that lies between the nose and the upper lip, which if stimulated with a needle, can revive the patient (human or animals) suffering from a cardiac arrest. On the surface it sounds like voodoo. The fact is, stimulating that point with a needle or syringe, results in the release of adrenaline. This proves that the concept of energy system and meridians is not totally a Voodoo craft. On the other hand, according to the meridians, stabbing your hands into a sandbucket would harm your eyes. Over the ages, at least tens of thousands of Karateka have done exactly just that and they can see just fine.

 

[Matt Stone]

Years ago I started trying to train in Iron Palm according to the methods that my teacher, Yilisifu, handed down to us. Unfortunately, however, I didn't have the medicine to use before and after training.

So, I figured (rather naively) that I could just do the hand conditioning without the medicine - or the qigong for that matter.

I began using a sandbag, and started doing the palm strikes dictated by the course of instruction. Within 3 days, having not done qigong nor used the medicine, I began having explosive, nearly uncontrollable bowel movements! Literally as soon as I started doing the qigong, the diarrhea abated...

When I spoke to one of my seniors about it, I was chastised and told that, had I remembered, that particular eventuality was exactly described as a side effect of incorrect training.

Because of a lack of access to the herbs necessary to make the medicine, I have thusfar never returned to Iron Palm practice. However, the lesson I learned remains with me...

Do what you are told. Somebody before you didn't, and now they know what not to do. Questioning things is good - it develops insight and understanding. However, questioning is not necessarily disobeying...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[chufeng]

I agree that much of acupuncture has a neurohumoral component...but that does not explain all of the effects seen...there is a qi component, as well...can't prove it exists...but I've experienced it first-hand...

The skeptic (with regard to TCM) tends to dismiss things and asks that the proponent of TCM prove the claim...hard to do, many times, since the traditional teaching of TCM is structured around a completely different metaphysical framework...

I would like to see some hard scientific studies done (Non-biased...structured in such a way so as not lean towards one conclusion or another) because many of the studies to date have been flawed.

Then there is the issue of "measuring" qi...
How do we do that when we don't even know what it is?

:asian:
chufeng

 

[yilisifu]

"Explosive diarrhea." Thanks for sharing that........

 

[Matt Stone]

Originally posted by yilisifu
"Explosive diarrhea." Thanks for sharing that........

Like putting three pounds of C4 into a five gallon bucket of Hershey's best chocolate syrup...

KA-BOOM!!!!

I'll never forget to do qigong after Iron Palm training again...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[ECYili]

Mmmmmm great visial Matt!

I know when I was practicing the cranes beak strike. I was doing 100 strikes with each hand a day to the slap bag. In a week or two I noticed that my eyes were getting very tired and they would hurt, I also would have a hard time focusing. Once I told Tim and he gave me some things to do and took a break from striking the bag my eyes almost immediatly got better.

dan

 

[Taiji fan]

chufeng wrote

I agree that much of acupuncture has a neurohumoral component

Uh? neurohumoral? what's that?

 

[chufeng]

It has to do with nervous system and hormonal systems...

For instance: someone scares you, unexpectedly, your feel a rubberiness in your legs and your heart starts to race...The fear mechanism stimulated the sympathetic nervous system which then sent signals to key areas of the body, to include the adrenal glands,...peripheral vessels dilate (that's the rubbery feeling), pupils dilate, hearing becomes more acute (you hear your breath and heart beat and are worried its loud enough for others to hear), blood flow to the gut becomes a trickle...adrenalin (humoral response) is the hormone that sustains the initial reaction initiated by the sympathetic nervous system...

Another example:
Someone is experiencing chronic pain...
stimulation by acupuncture can help release endorphins (hormone with morphine-like qualities) and reduce some of the discomfort...likewise, it may induce a relaxation response and inhibitory pathways in the central nervous system are activated. Stimulation of some nerve elicits a hormonal response (neurohumoral)...

What is intriguing is the specificity of the points and the effects they have on target organs...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[Taiji fan]

ok.. thanks Chufeng....I haven't heard that term before.

What is intriguing is the specificity of the points and the effects they have on target organs...

ever tried abdominal massage? I have had treatment and studied this a little and it was quite interesting, while being massaged in the liver area I started to lose my temper and start waffling about 'old stuff'. During shiatsu treatment getting kidney and bladder meridians worked on I got a really salty taste........oops sorry, wandered off the thread.......it is all very interesting stuff

 

[yilisifu]

"Rising liver fire" can cause irritability and extreme anger can injure the liver. So the part about getting abdominal massage over that area and feeling cranky makes sense.

The kidneys and bladder belong to the water element whose "taste" is salty.

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by Taiji fan .... ever tried abdominal massage? I have had treatment and studied this a little and it was quite interesting, while being massaged in the liver area I started to lose my temper ....

I got the same effect too. But I believe it is called "a kick in the solar plexus".

 

[KennethKu]

Originally posted by chufeng
I agree that much of acupuncture has a neurohumoral component...but that does not explain all of the effects seen...there is a qi component, as well...can't prove it exists...but I've experienced it first-hand...

The skeptic (with regard to TCM) tends to dismiss things and asks that the proponent of TCM prove the claim...hard to do, many times, since the traditional teaching of TCM is structured around a completely different metaphysical framework...

I would like to see some hard scientific studies done (Non-biased...structured in such a way so as not lean towards one conclusion or another) because many of the studies to date have been flawed.

Then there is the issue of "measuring" qi...
How do we do that when we don't even know what it is?

:asian:
chufeng

I would settle for consistently reproduceable result and training that would yield similar performance in the majority of the trainees.

Even when we do not understand certain things, but if they can be identified and reproduced or observed consistently, then we can at least document and record them as true.

 

[Matt Stone]

As far as Iron Palm medicine goes, I have used it for years to fix all manner of injuries from training, and I use it on my kids occasionally as well...

Healing is finished in at least triple time, every time. Which is why I continue to use it!

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[KennethKu]

Why would you feel comfortable in administering it to your children? Do we know if there is any chemical or compound that might be harmful to young children? I would not apply any thing to young children without knowing about possible side-effect. Eventhough it is only topical, a mix of compounds that alter the normal healing process in human "might" have unknown effect on young children.

On the other hand, I suppose you can point to the billion of Chinese who have not reported any ill side effect from herbs/jow's. Still, I would be extremely cautious.

 

[chufeng]

What Yiliquan1 meant to say was that he cautiously applies it to his children...

Percutaneous absorption is a slow process, at best, so I doubt that it presents a large risk to children...

Not so, with certain steroidal creams...

But the herbal preparations are very dilute, compared to the refined topical pharmaceuticals...

chufeng

 

[Matt Stone]

My son had a bruise. I took a cotton swab, dipped it in the jow, and spread it over the bruise. Less than two or three actual drops were applied.

Somehow, I doubt it'll damage him.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:

 

[yilisifu]

The stuff really is remarkable. I've never had anyone complain of any side-effects.