Does Taijiquan involve " Internal Iron Palm " training?

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
32,392
Reaction score
6,967
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
Did Lee learn Iron Palm from Yang Chen Fu? I do not find anything stating Yang Chen Fu taught Iron Palm.

The video clips say "Lee's modified Tai Chi" can we assume he learned Iron Palm else where and incorporated it into his modified style?

Saying Taiji contains Iron Palm because one guy does it and modified it is like saying Taiji contains Ninjutsu because one guy modified his Taiji to contain it.

But if we ask does Lee Ying Arng Taiji contain Iron Palm then the answer is yes. But if we are going to generalize Taiji then the answer is no.


Thank You


Iron palm in 100 days was written by Lee Ying Arng who was also Bagua person to I believe and as far as I know Lee Ying Arng was not a senior disciple under Yang Chen Fu. But unless someone can supply me with the Chinese for his name I cannot be 100% sure. A lot and I mean A LOT of people trained with Yang Chengfu and a lot claim to be disciples and they were not or some are just assumed to be because they once trained with Yang Chengfu. Others make the clam and if you have someone who actually knows (The Yang family and actual disciples of Yang Chengfu or disciples of his disciples they can pretty much tell you who is fake and who is not) There was another Taiji sifu, recently mentioned on MT as a master, whose teacher is pretty much a fraud but they likely they are not aware of it or if they are either will not believe it or are equally guilty of fraud. I have come across this in researching Yiquan and in Chen family lineage clams as well. There is a gentleman with the family name of Yang (Yang Fukui) that is a fraud as well that was claiming to be a member of the Yang family and he most certainly is not and the Yang family even made a statement about him.

The fact that someone, even a reputable someone, wrote a book on the topic does not mean it is true. There are things that were written by Sun Lutang, Yang Chengfu, Tung Ying Chieh and Fu Zhongwen that are not historically true and they fully believed they were ad don’t get me started on Cheng Manching. Although I still wold recommend all of thier books, Cheng Manching included.

Also Yang Chengfu did not teach Iron palm as far as I know, and as far as I know, there is no “Internal Iron Palm Training” in any legitimate style of Taijiquan.

In my opinion I pretty much chalk all this type of stuff up to silliness. People are looking for an edge, a secret, a reason to feel superior so they look to things like “Internal Iron Palm Training” “or secret Yang family style” when in fact they do not exist within the confines of Yang style Taijiquan, there are no secrets just training and if your sifu is worth his stuff he will train you what you need to know when you are ready for it and when you are talking Taiji it takes YEARS. And this is cominig form one that use to look for the secrets befire he realized that there were none, just training and trusting the person teaching you :asian:
 

Quotheraving

Orange Belt
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
67
Reaction score
2
Location
W.Sussex South England
In my opinion I pretty much chalk all this type of stuff up to silliness. People are looking for an edge, a secret, a reason to feel superior so they look to things like “Internal Iron Palm Training”

I don't know about that, it seems a little over dramatic.
Most martial artists who have adopted iron palm training aren't looking for anything other than to be able to strike with full force without injuring their own hand in the process, more prudence than pomposity if you ask me.

I agree with your general sentiment though, focussing upon hand conditioning has nothing to do with the essence of T'ai Chi and it is possible to become a very effective martial artist using T'ai Chi without ever once needing to strike the opponent.
I for one would far rather bounce someone away or pin them using chi-na than punch the bejeezus out of em.

Yang style orthodoxy exclusively emphasises sensitivity and structure (and consequently de-emphasises striking) in training and only gradually works towards free sparring (and hence even the thought of striking) over the course of years and even decades.
There are some schools that start off sparring from day one, but in my experience they tend to display a VERY poor level of ability. This is doubtless due to them trying to skip the boring but essential basics in a rush to get straight to what they consider "The good stuff".



P.S.
As regards other 'secret' techniques, specifically Dim Mak or cavity striking (which talking about silliness Erle Montaigue loves ;) ). If memory serves me well there is even some oblique references to striking techniques of just this type in the dubiously titled, but otherwise excellent "Yang family secret transmissions", but as my edition of this is out on loan I can't verify it right this moment.
 
Last edited:

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
32,392
Reaction score
6,967
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
I don't know about that, it seems a little over dramatic.
Most martial artists who have adopted iron palm training aren't looking for anything other than to be able to strike with full force without injuring their own hand in the process.

Not saying they don't, just saying this whole "internal iron palm" and secret transmission stuff is, IMO, a bit silly.

We hit trees in sanda to train the palm but there was never once a mention of "iron palm training" it was simply training :asian:

If memory serves me well there is even some oblique references to striking techniques of just this type in the dubiously titled "Yang family secret transmissions", but as my edition of this is out on loan I can't verify it right this moment.

Would this be a reference to Michuan?
 

ben

Yellow Belt
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
55
Reaction score
0
There are several different kinds of internal iron palm that are found in all 3 internal arts. (Tai Chi, Hsing-I and Bagua) The Tai Chi classics talk about a body quality described as Steel wrapped in cotton. This is one aspect of Iron Palm in Tai Chi although Iron Palm encompasses more than just the Steel wrapped in cotton idea and Steel wrapped in cotton is talking about more than just Iron Palm.

More recently Bruce Frantzis wrote a book called The Power of internal martial arts where he mentions a few different kinds of internal iron palm. He writes about condensation strikes saying:

"This is an earlier level of Cotton Palm, and is often called the internal martial arts equivalent of Shaolin's "Iron Palm." This method exists in all tree styles, equally done with open-hands, fists, or forearms."

and in the section on cotton palm he writes:

"This technique is equally common to all the advanced levels of all internal martial arts.

Internal Iron Palm is not some secret passed down to only a select few. It is common to all the advanced levels of all internal martial arts not just Tai Chi. The problem is that outside of China it is very difficult to find quality information about any of the internal arts

In Draeger's book Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts he lists 4 shortcomings of Chinese martial arts. The #1 shortcoming is:

(1) Some excellent methods have died because of the fetish of secrecy

The effects of this fetish of secrecy can be easily seen in the states where anyone who knows the moves in a form and can quote some philosophy is considered a Tai Chi Teacher and anyone who knows just a little more than that is considered highly skilled.

Unfortunately this makes supporting points about high level or even intermediate level internal arts difficult on an internet forum. The quotes above and the video I posted earlier are not meant to be absolute proof of any kind. They are there to show anyone interested in Internal Iron Palm or the brutal striking of the internal arts that it might be something worth looking into. Increasing one's # of teachers and sources of information is almost always a good thing especially in a field as convoluted and confused as the Internal Martial Arts. Even knowledgeable and forthcoming teachers don't have it all.



...Yang style orthodoxy exclusively emphasises sensitivity and structure (and consequently de-emphasises striking) in training...

I partially agree but I don't think that an emphasis on sensitivity and structure de-emphasizes striking. Understanding structure, weight distribution and transfer, energetics & body states and of course sensitivity are all very important to proper striking in Tai Chi. I am also not trying to over emphasize the striking aspects of Tai Chi but that just happens to be the topic at hand.
 

JadecloudAlchemist

Master of Arts
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
1,877
Reaction score
82
Location
Miami,Florida
There are several different kinds of internal iron palm that are found in all 3 internal arts. (Tai Chi, Hsing-I and Bagua
I don't see it. I have not read of any master in any of the arts saying anything about Iron Palm. I would have thought Bagua would have no mention of Dong Hai Chuan or his students training in it that I have heard of read.

The Tai Chi classics talk about a body quality described as “Steel wrapped in cotton.” This is one aspect of Iron Palm in Tai Chi although Iron Palm encompasses more than just the “Steel wrapped in cotton” idea and “Steel wrapped in cotton” is talking about more than just Iron Palm.
To put it in context of what you said it means this:
After a long period of practice and chi circulating freely everyday, you develop jin (an internal power which is different from hard force). This is what the Tai Chi Classics means by "from true softness comes true hardness". The arms of one who has Tai Chi kung fu will feel extremely heavy; like steel wrapped in cotton.
It is talking about developing Jin. Yes the internal arts have Jin and the emitting of Fa jin but calling that internal Iron Palm or Iron Palm IMO is misleading call it what it is Fa jin.
This is an earlier level of Cotton Palm, and is often called the internal martial arts equivalent of Shaolin's "Iron Palm." This method exists in all tree styles, equally done with open-hands, fists, or forearms."
Is this Cotton Palm?
Cotton iron palm, sometimes called "cotton palm," is very rare. It involves hitting a bag filled with cotton or some other soft material. Where as the external style involves significant conditioning of the hands, cotton palm does not develop external conditioning in the same way seeing as how a hard surface is never struck. Cotton iron palm involves the use of qigong exercises and dit da jow as well, and an advanced practitioner is said to be able to strike an opponent in the stomach, damage their internal organs, and leave a palm print on their back.
Can you list any Bagua,Xingyi,Taiji practicers who practiced Cotton Palm as described here?

It is common to all the advanced levels of all internal martial arts not just Tai Chi. The problem is that outside of China it is very difficult to find quality information about any of the internal arts
If it is common how come noone knows about it? Who is teaching "Iron Palm" in Taiji,Bagua,Xingyi? I can understand Jin being developed I can understand and see Silk reeling in all internal arts(especially Bagua) which develops Jin but I do not see anything named "Iron Palm" or "Internal IronPalm" being used by any of the masters of old.

I think we know more about the internal arts then before. Plenty of published material plenty of people traveling to China to train and hosting these masters here in the states.

Unfortunately this makes supporting points about high level or even intermediate level internal arts difficult on an internet forum.
If you can support your points with evidence of the usage of Internal Iron Palm but if we are to follow this formula:
The internal version is not commonly seen. Its practice is almost entirely based in qigong with exercises designed to generate and move the qi around the body and into the palms of the hand. There is not much bag striking in the practice of this iron palm, owing to its internal nature. It is said that a master of the internal style palm can place his hand on an opponent and strike without moving his hand back at all and cause great damage. An internal palm breaking demonstration may involve the practitioner placing his hand on top of a stack of bricks and then breaking them with what appears to be only a small shake of his body, but his hand never comes off the bricks. Internal iron palm will involve the use of dit da jow after, and possibly before practice as well.
It is clearly Fa jin calling it internal Iron palm IMO seems misleading.
 

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
32,392
Reaction score
6,967
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
There are several different kinds of internal iron palm that are found in all 3 internal arts. (Tai Chi, Hsing-I and Bagua) The Tai Chi classics talk about a body quality described as “Steel wrapped in cotton.” This is one aspect of Iron Palm in Tai Chi although Iron Palm encompasses more than just the “Steel wrapped in cotton” idea and “Steel wrapped in cotton” is talking about more than just Iron Palm.

No its not

Steel wrapped in cotton as far as taiji is concerned has to do with the entire body not iron palm training. Speaking strictly from a Taiji POV it is what happens when Qi infuses the bone and the bones become like steel and the muscles are relaxed like cotton and this allows for rather powerful strikes using fajing.

More recently Bruce Frantzis wrote a book called “The Power of internal martial arts” where he mentions a few different kinds of internal iron palm. He writes about condensation strikes saying:



and in the section on “cotton palm” he writes:



Internal Iron Palm is not some secret passed down to only a select few. It is common to all the advanced levels of all internal martial arts not just Tai Chi. The problem is that outside of China it is very difficult to find quality information about any of the internal arts

Iron palm is a common practice of a lot of CMA styles there is no surprise or secret in anything that Bruce Frantzis wrote on the topic. But if I approach my Taiji sifus and talk about Iron palm he will, and has said that is external training and he is born raised and trained in China in taiji and only taiji. If I talk to my Sanda Sifu about iron palm training he will say that is a training all by itself and he does not say that standing there hitting a tree is iron palm training and he to is born raised and trained in China, but in Sanda and only Sanda.

And cotton palm is another name for what Yang Luchan originally taught it is not anything unusual it is just an early name for Yang Style Taijiquan


In Draeger's book “Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts” he lists 4 shortcomings of Chinese martial arts. The #1 shortcoming is:



The effects of this “fetish of secrecy” can be easily seen in the states where anyone who knows the moves in a form and can quote some philosophy is considered a Tai Chi Teacher and anyone who knows just a little more than that is considered “highly skilled.”

There are no secrets however we in the west believe there are because we do not get taught what "WE" feel we should be taught "WHEN" we feel "WE" should. It is rather hard for most here to understand that a good Sifu knows better than you do what you are ready to learn and when you are ready to do it. We tend to take our lack of patients and call it Chinese secrecy

Unfortunately this makes supporting points about high level or even intermediate level internal arts difficult on an internet forum. The quotes above and the video I posted earlier are not meant to be “absolute proof” of any kind. They are there to show anyone interested in Internal Iron Palm or the brutal striking of the internal arts that it might be something worth looking into. Increasing one's # of teachers and sources of information is almost always a good thing especially in a field as convoluted and confused as the Internal Martial Arts. Even knowledgeable and forthcoming teachers don't have it all.

There is some rather powerful striking in the internal martial arts, Xingyiquan hits like a truck but that has MUCH more to do with the unification of your body that anything called "Iron palm". Also Taiji can hit you damn hard too. I bent the hooks on a heavy bag and knocked it off the chain when I got it right. But again it has more to do with unification of the body (muscles and skeleton) and from the IMACMA view movement of qi or energy than anything called "Iron palm"

I partially agree but I don't think that an emphasis on sensitivity and structure de-emphasizes striking. Understanding structure, weight distribution and transfer, energetics & body states and of course sensitivity are all very important to proper striking in Tai Chi. I am also not trying to over emphasize the striking aspects of Tai Chi but that just happens to be the topic at hand.

I never even once hinted that there is no striking. Training striking is not training iron palm. Taiji, depending on style, has a lot of striking. It is in the forms, elbows, palm, fist, foot, knee, shoulder, etc. But the idea of the slow movement is to get the whole mess that we call our body relaxed and in the proper alignment to allow the energy to travel from the root to where ever you want it of go and this is fajing not iron palm.
 

ben

Yellow Belt
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
55
Reaction score
0
After a long period of practice and chi circulating freely everyday, you develop jin (an internal power which is different from hard force). This is what the Tai Chi Classics means by "from true softness comes true hardness". The arms of one who has Tai Chi kung fu will feel extremely heavy; like steel wrapped in cotton.

...It is talking about developing Jin. Yes the internal arts have Jin and the emitting of Fa jin but calling that internal Iron Palm or Iron Palm IMO is misleading call it what it is Fa jin...It is clearly Fa jin calling it internal Iron palm IMO seems misleading.

I don't see a mention of fa jing anywhere in that passage. It is talking about building energy through long practice and about developing a body quality that feels like "steel wrapped in cotton" through the use of that internal energy.

What I said was that while this body quality does many other things it also is part of one kind of Internal Iron Palm in Tai Chi.

I am not talking about fa jing. fa jing is only one of at least 36 basic jings. the "fa" in fa jing means "explosive" and a jing is an expression of energy. the body has energy a "jing" is how you use that energy.

Fa Jing = explosive energy. fa jing describes movement and uses of force and energy that are explosive. This is different than Iron Palm although they could be used together.

chansi jing or Silk reeling = is another jing that describes a spiraling use of the energy.

these are only two jings. There are many others that are equally as important to the internal arts. These two are just more common in the west.

(I should probably add that when I say "energy" I do not mean some sort of scifi mumbojumbo I simply mean "energy")

If it is common how come noone knows about it? Who is teaching "Iron Palm" in Taiji,Bagua,Xingyi?

I already a answered this but I'll repeat myself again. It is common in the sense that it exists in all the advanced levels of all internal martial arts. It is uncommon in the sense that very few people in the western world have been exposed to it. Much less teach it.

This is caused by a culture of secrecy Chinese martial arts. This exists to some degree in most martial arts but in China they even have names for it. "Open Door" refers to a public curriculum that is taught to almost anybody. "Closed Door" is the material that is taught "behind closed doors" only to long term trusted students and family members. I wouldn't call these "secrets" because a lot of people do know this stuff but most of them are unwilling to teach it and the few that might be willing to are under a lot of cultural and peer pressure not to. Thats why Draeger lists it as the #1 shortcoming of Chinese martial arts in his book.
 

ben

Yellow Belt
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
55
Reaction score
0
Iron palm is a common practice of a lot of CMA styles there is no surprise or secret in anything that Bruce Frantzis wrote on the topic. But if I approach my Taiji sifus and talk about Iron palm he will, and has said that is external training...


I agree that what Bruce Frantzis wrote is no surprise or secret but he did say that the condensation strikes are the "internal martial arts equivalent of Shaolin's Iron Palm." This goes back to what I said earlier about different kinds of Iron Palm. I agree that smashing your hands on stuff to make them harder is not Tai Chi but this is only 1 very crude form of Iron Palm. When I say Iron Palm I am referring to Shaolin's Iron Palm and all the Internal martial arts equivalents as well as all other forms of Iron Palm.

I am not saying that Tai Chi includes all forms of Iron Palm. It doesn't. But it does include condensation strikes and "cotton palm" which are both types of internal iron palm.
 

ben

Yellow Belt
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
55
Reaction score
0
I should probably add that I'm not trying to say the Classics specifically talk about Iron Palm. I am saying that if you develp the "extremely heavy; like steel wrapped in cotton" body quality they do talk about then you will have an Iron Palm quality hit (in addition to a bunch of other different things) that was developed through internal training.
 

JadecloudAlchemist

Master of Arts
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
1,877
Reaction score
82
Location
Miami,Florida
I should probably add that I'm not trying to say the Classics specifically talk about Iron Palm. I am saying that if you develp the "extremely heavy; like steel wrapped in cotton" body quality they do talk about then you will have an Iron Palm quality hit (in addition to a bunch of other different things) that was developed through internal training.

An Iron Palm quality and Iron Palm is different!!

When asked does Taiji involve Iron Palm training you said:
yes, definitely.
You go on to say:
The heavy, rooted & connected kinds of body qualities that tai chi builds are going to lend themselves to this kind of hitting even without specifically focusing on Iron Palm.
Then you mention Lee Ying Arng as proof that Taiji is used in IronPalm without mentioning Lee modified it and trained his Iron Palm else where and not thru Yang Chen Fu. You then try to change the story that the Taiji classics speak in realtion to Iron Palm which is not true as Xue pointed out:
Steel wrapped in cotton as far as taiji is concerned has to do with the entire body not iron palm training. Speaking strictly from a Taiji POV it is what happens when Qi infuses the bone and the bones become like steel and the muscles are relaxed like cotton and this allows for rather powerful strikes using fajing.
Now you are saying:
he did say that the condensation strikes are the "internal martial arts equivalent of Shaolin's Iron Palm."

Big leap from yes contains Iron Palm to well it has equivalent to Iron Palm.
 

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
32,392
Reaction score
6,967
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
I agree that what Bruce Frantzis wrote is no surprise or secret but he did say that the condensation strikes are the "internal martial arts equivalent of Shaolin's Iron Palm." This goes back to what I said earlier about different kinds of Iron Palm. I agree that smashing your hands on stuff to make them harder is not Tai Chi but this is only 1 very crude form of Iron Palm. When I say Iron Palm I am referring to Shaolin's Iron Palm and all the Internal martial arts equivalents as well as all other forms of Iron Palm.

I am not saying that Tai Chi includes all forms of Iron Palm. It doesn't. But it does include condensation strikes and "cotton palm" which are both types of internal iron palm.

All I can say is I do not agree with Bruce Frantzis, but then I have not read his book and maybe there is something missing here. Shaolin Iron palm is something very different than working on the body structure and internal in taijiquan

And again cotton palm, aka cotton fist is a reference to what Yang Luchan originally called Yang style taiji and not a method of training something other than Yang style taiji in its early stages as it came from Chen style. It also can be used as an insult these day in China in the right context much like flower fist


I should probably add that I'm not trying to say the Classics specifically talk about Iron Palm. I am saying that if you develp the "extremely heavy; like steel wrapped in cotton" body quality they do talk about then you will have an Iron Palm quality hit (in addition to a bunch of other different things) that was developed through internal training.

JadecloudAlchemist's response already covered some of the things I was going to say so there is no need to repeat those.

I will add that a strike from someone that has trained Iron palm is very different than someone that has trained the striking aspects of taiji. For one the taiji strike is much more relaxed. Also it tends to go much deeper and cover less surface area than an Iron palm strike.
 

ben

Yellow Belt
Joined
Jul 5, 2007
Messages
55
Reaction score
0
An Iron Palm quality and Iron Palm is different!!

Big leap from yes contains Iron Palm to well it has equivalent to Iron Palm.

There's no big leap. Internal Iron Palm is the internal martial arts equivalent to external Iron Palm.

What you're calling iron palm is only 1 small aspect of iron palm.

Iron Palm is a category that includes several different kinds of striking that exist in the internal arts. It also includes the external Iron Palm that most people are familiar with.

I agree with Xue Sheng that Shaolin Iron palm is something very different than working on the body structure and internal in taijiquan. Of course different kinds of Iron Palm are different and of course getting hit with different kinds of strikes will feel different.
 

JadecloudAlchemist

Master of Arts
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
1,877
Reaction score
82
Location
Miami,Florida
Iron Palm is a category that includes several different kinds of striking that exist in the internal arts

So what you are saying is because internal arts have certain types of strikes thus they are practicing IronPalm? Obviously Bagua has palm techniques but none of the palms I have seen are called Iron palm. I have not seen any of the five element form in Xingyi say anything about Iron Palm, I have not read any family style of Taiji say this is Iron Palm. Noone is doubting that similarities between Iron Palm and Internal arts but the doubt is raised when you are claiming the art does it.

Where in Baguazhang is the Iron Palm? Where in Xingyiquan is the Iron Palm? Where in Taiji is the Iron Palm? Name a master like Sun Lu Tang,Chen Xiaowang,or anyone else saying"this is Iron Palm" In Bagua,Xingyi,Taiji. You have provided Lee Ying who we have already mentioned modified Taiji and added Iron Palm from another source and not from Yang Chen Fu as Xue Sheng as stated concerning Yang Taiji and Iron Palm. If there was Iron Palm in Yang Taiji Xue Sheng's teacher would have mentioned it to him but Xue said
I approach my Taiji sifus and talk about Iron palm he will, and has said that is external training and he is born raised and trained in China in taiji and only taiji.

So again you keep mentioning Iron Palm is taught in the internal arts then who taught it and used the term Iron Palm?
 

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
32,392
Reaction score
6,967
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
ben

OK after rereading this and doing a little checking I think we are getting confused here with the word internal. Apparently there are 2 major schools of thought on iron palm training those being internal and external but this is not to be confused with Internal Chinese Martial Arts like Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan that do not train an internal iron palm as part of their curriculum.

The Internal side of Iron palm is apparently using more of a focus on Qi as they hit various hard objects and stuff their hands into sand, pebbles and rocks where the external is simply hitting various hard objects and stuff their hands into sand, pebbles and rocks.

It is not nor should it be confused with Neijia martial arts like Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan. Now any one of those styles could have a practitioner that goes off and trains internal iron palm but it is something separate form Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan and considered by my taiji sifu as an external type training no matter what you call it.
 

JadecloudAlchemist

Master of Arts
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
1,877
Reaction score
82
Location
Miami,Florida
Here is an article by Tim Cartmell:

http://www.shenwu.com/Internal_VS_External.htm

Mind these quotes:

Read the part Body Mechanics it clearly shows why internal arts use the whole body for a strike rather then focus on something like Iron Palm.

So if an internal practicer is going to strike it is whole body an emitted Fa Jin calling this "internal Iron Palm" is kinda of midguiding because you can Fa Jin with any part of your body. All the methods in internal such as Taiji-silk reeling Xingyi-Santi spring like motion Bagua-spiral motion are using whole body to emitt Fa Jin.
 

Tensei85

Master Black Belt
Joined
May 16, 2009
Messages
1,097
Reaction score
31
Location
Michigan
To be honest, just because you attach Iron Palm to the name Taiji doesn't mean its has any meaning or even value in the name. I could say I'm studying the superman palm, that in fact superman studied & transmitted to me directly "oh & by the way I learned it in Taiji, which Superman also studied", so than Taiji must use the Superman palm!

When you come to that type of conclusion based on that type of logic, it really is meaningless.

There can be Iron Palm in everything, its a conditioning process coupled with Qi Gong & most certainly linaments. However if you go to Hong Kong, China whatever & look for a Qi Gong Master they would generally teach Iron Palm, Iron Shirt, Golden Bell etc... seperate from the actual Martial Arts curriculum. So that in itself is a training process not meant that it is the actual embedding of the system it self, but more of a (extra curricular activity), or piece of the larger subject of "Hard Qi Gong" so to say.

So I feel JCA & Xue were 100% correct in their assessment.

So in short can you train Iron Palm in Taiji, ya definitely as well as Karate, Wing Chun, Judo, even BJJ, its a training method.


Check Wiki, nice read as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Palm


But thanks for sharing.
 
Top