Another question for atheists

[Bill Mattocks]

Thought I'd start a new thread so as not to crap on the other one. But it reminded me of a question I have been meaning to ask.

I've got a friend on Twitter (and now FB) who is an atheist. She's a good person and I like her just fine (despite her being liberal as well, hehehe). But she's into this atheist thing and I find some of what she does somewhat mystifying.

For example, she belongs to an atheist group that has meetings on a regular basis. I'm thinking to myself WHAT on earth do they talk about? I can picture it now.

"Well, there's no God, I'm pretty sure of that."

"Yep, no God."

"Definitely! Just say NO to God."

"Uh, OK, then. What do we talk about for the next hour?"

I mean, once you've established what you don't believe, what else is there to talk about?

And she goes to atheist conventions? Really? What on earth for? A whole bunch of people all in one place for a week or so, all saying "Yep, we sure don't believe in God. Sure don't. Nope, not at all....[crickets]..."

So tell me, atheists. Do you get together with other atheists on a regular basis (you know, kind of like religious folk go to services) and if so, what on earth do you talk about? Assuming it's not a secret, of course.

OK, maybe a side-question. How many of you are not religious, versus anti-religion? I have noted that some atheists aren't just non-believers, they also seem to have a problem with people who are, either due to having been persecuted (in fact or imagination) or they think that they're being oppressed by living in a society that clearly celebrates religion in public with all the holidays and such.

 

[Sukerkin]

I have to confess that that is something of a mystery to me, Bill viz that people can group together to do just what you humorously parodied above.

Most people that I know, being English, do not think that there is a God, tho' by no means all feel that way; but altho' we may occasionally pass comment on something that people overly possessed by their religion have done or said in the news, that is about the size of it. Other than that we just quietly get on with our secular and, strangely given that we don't think there is a God, moral lives.

I might wish that humanity would grow out of what Prof Dawkins so aptly termed the "God Delusion" but it's not going to happen any time soon, so I might as well just accept that many in the world worship something that, as I see it, does not exist and guide their lives by books written by those that seek to control the population through mass indoctrination.

I know that there are a lot of negative terms in what I just wrote but it is what I think. I don't mean to capriciously offend those that do hold devout beliefs but neither am I not going to give my honest opinion when asked - for if I do I show no respect to myself or the person who has asked me.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I imagine a few of them have planning degrees, and want to design a world chalk full of civil rights and what not.

 

[fangjian]

Hehehe. Very funny post, Bill.

Well I've never been to one of those things. I've always been an Atheist, but never identified myself as such since I never thought is an accurate portrayal of my worldview. But it seems to be the term that everyone is adopting so whatever. I wish it was something like 'Secular Humanist' or 'Rationalist' instead.

I was at a 4th of July parade in CT, and there were about 4 people representing an Atheist group in CT, like the one you speak of. I actually think I heard a lot of 'boos' and stuff from the crowd. Hahaha. I couldn't believe it. I think I'll march with them next year.

I know that in very religious areas 'closet atheists' don't have many friends to talk to, so it's nice that they have these groups in such places. Some people are actually 'disowned' by their family and stuff because of it. Crazy.

Regarding 'what would they possibly have to talk about?'

I think it's more just a 'club', like any other. They will talk about politics, sports, science ( and make fun of religions, of course ). Occasionally organize events, like hiking, parades etc. Also, many people still have a strange view of "Atheists". The word still has negative connotations with it. "Aren't you people like 'mean' or something?"........."Are you a devil worshiper?" hahahahaha ummmmmm No.

But simply, if someone asks you if you believe in gods and you say "No" or "I don't know", than you're an Atheist. That's all. Also, many groups are often doing things for the community, like how churches do.

OK, maybe a side-question. How many of you are not religious, versus anti-religion? I have noted that some atheists aren't just non-believers, they also seem to have a problem with people who are, either due to having been persecuted (in fact or imagination) or they think that they're being oppressed by living in a society that clearly celebrates religion in public with all the holidays and such.

We don't have problems with 'people', like I said earlier. Unless those people are violent or hateful ( Bin laden, Fred Phelps, etc ). Religious stuff in public is fine and protected by free speech. Things just get messy because no one is very clear on the laws about it and stuff. Like when I heard the 'under god' part at my kids' school. I was gonna say something, BUT I found out that it hasn't been banned yet where I live, so it would be dumb raise a fuss about it to the school ( although it needs to go. That's a no brainer). The laws are all kinda foggy, and no one can see where the line is.

 

[seasoned]

My wife's job brings her into contact with many terminally ill people. Talking to her the other day about some of the threads on MT pertaining to religion and such, she made a comment that while talking to people with months and even weeks to live, all, are looking for some bit of comfort while faced with dying, and the unknown. No matter what background they come from, when faced with this end game, all are afraid, and looking for something to make sense of life. Most turn to prayer and the feeling that there is something beyond. It's called hope, hope that there is something, none are professing and expecting there to be nothing. Not to get off the OP, but I feel this is pertinent.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Most of those groups also have Humanism or Humanistic in their names as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism

 

[Razor]

I've never been to such an event, but I imagine it's similar to why most other like-minded people group together. Just a way of exchanging ideas on a common theme, much like why people have associations for all sorts of things.

I am broadly anti-religious, because I think that religion can and does cause more problems than it solves. Note this does not mean I'm mean to or don't like religious people, it's the organisation and idea of it I dislike, not the people.

 

[Tez3]

I've never been to such an event, but I imagine it's similar to why most other like-minded people group together. Just a way of exchanging ideas on a common theme, much like why people have associations for all sorts of things.

I am broadly anti-religious, because I think that religion can and does cause more problems than it solves. Note this does not mean I'm mean to or don't like religious people, it's the organisation and idea of it I dislike, not the people.

I think you are possibly mistaken in believing 'religion' causes the problem, as with political systems they are inert institutions, it is people who cause the problems and they will do so whether they have a religion or not. Religion is used as an excuse by both those who make the problems and those who are the victims but the motives that drive people to cause wars, persecutions etc are always the same, it's power, wealth, jealousy and the need to be in control that drives people. Take away religions and you will have exactly the same problems just under different 'names'.

 

[fangjian]

I think you are possibly mistaken in believing 'religion' causes the problem, as with political systems they are inert institutions, it is people who cause the problems and they will do so whether they have a religion or not. Religion is used as an excuse by both those who make the problems and those who are the victims but the motives that drive people to cause wars, persecutions etc are always the same, it's power, wealth, jealousy and the need to be in control that drives people. Take away religions and you will have exactly the same problems just under different 'names'.

There are many instances where 'beliefs' are the direct root of negative behavior. The anti-gay sentiment in Uganda or the killings of Albino people in pretty much every country in Africa, because people 'believe' that Albino skin, hair etc, has magical properties. If this belief didn't exist the Albinos will not be sought out and murdered. Like here in the USA for example. I can safely say that an overwhelming majority of Americans do not believe that Albinos have magical skin/hair, so as a direct result, Albinos are not getting murdered here. And why do we not believe that Albinos' skin/hair have magical properties? Most of us are familiar with the term Melanin, and that Albino people lack this pigment and that this trait is the product of recessive genes. Science education FTW.
Of course, humans will find other things to fight about, but it would be nice if this kinda stuff were not in the equation.

 

[Omar B]

Why the hell would I meet with other Atheists? I don't hang out with people simply because I like orange juice or think Superman is cool.

I am an Objectivist so I do go to some of those events, but there again, it's usually about literature or art.

 

[Razor]

I think you are possibly mistaken in believing 'religion' causes the problem, as with political systems they are inert institutions, it is people who cause the problems and they will do so whether they have a religion or not. Religion is used as an excuse by both those who make the problems and those who are the victims but the motives that drive people to cause wars, persecutions etc are always the same, it's power, wealth, jealousy and the need to be in control that drives people. Take away religions and you will have exactly the same problems just under different 'names'.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't think I make that mistake. True, religion can be used as an excuse for almost anything, and some people do this, but religion also is the direct cause of some issues. We don't know whether the world would be better or worse without religion, but I think some problems would not exist, or would at least decrease. Also I think a related problem is ignorance+religion. People who are poorly educated etc will take religious ideas as (possibly literal) facts which leads to fundamentalism, whereas better educated religious people will not.

There are many instances where 'beliefs' are the direct root of negative behavior. The anti-gay sentiment in Uganda or the killings of Albino people in pretty much every country in Africa, because people 'believe' that Albino skin, hair etc, has magical properties. If this belief didn't exist the Albinos will not be sought out and murdered. Like here in the USA for example. I can safely say that an overwhelming majority of Americans do not believe that Albinos have magical skin/hair, so as a direct result, Albinos are not getting murdered here. And why do we not believe that Albinos' skin/hair have magical properties? Most of us are familiar with the term Melanin, and that Albino people lack this pigment and that this trait is the product of recessive genes. Science education FTW.
Of course, humans will find other things to fight about, but it would be nice if this kinda stuff were not in the equation.

Indeed. I think it would reduce some problems, as it would further rationality over religious ideas or other superstitious beliefs.

 

[aedrasteia]

My wife's job brings her into contact with many terminally ill people. Talking to her the other day about some of the threads on MT pertaining to religion and such, she made a comment that while talking to people with months and even weeks to live, all, are looking for some bit of comfort while faced with dying, and the unknown. No matter what background they come from, when faced with this end game, all are afraid, and looking for something to make sense of life. Most turn to prayer and the feeling that there is something beyond. It's called hope, hope that there is something, none are professing and expecting there to be nothing. Not to get off the OP, but I feel this is pertinent.

thanks. Its the most pertinent comment so far. What does your wife do in those situations?

What we do - to, with and for - other people as well as ourselves is what reveals us all. Professions of theory, beliefs, arguments, debates...all shrink to noise . I look and consider what people actually _do_ in the face of the "joys, sorrows and troubles of life".

Comfort, care, laugh, lift the spirit, feed, clothe, figure out how to help and then do it. Expand our reach to more people, speak with compassion, hold back (and eventually dissolve) cruel words and cynicism, keep silent and stay close when words fail. Wash the floors that need washing, do the unglamorous, do what is close to hand.

Allow your heart to break open. tell the dying (which means each of us) what is true in that moment, the truths which seem to be all we need to hear - I'm here, you're not alone. I care for you... and show them, with touch and presence. Do the laundry, hold the hand. Stay when the process is long or hard or ugly. Forgive yourself, forgive others, step back into the confusion and take the next step.

Atheisist, believer, unknown - all have done it. and others have failed. The surface noise seems to be less connected to the deep sources. I've seen no reliable connection between what people profess and what they actually do.

I don't care what 'theory' or 'belief' underlies. My interest in those beliefs and theories has mostly eroded in the face of reality. and what people do - or don't.

My 'belief'? No matter what set of words are professed on the surface, the true, silent source of generosity, kindness, compassion, generosity, strong heart... that's the presence of 'god-ness'. I want to recognize and honor it whenever I wake up enough to see it and find any ways that help to grow it in myself.

the real thing, not fake, not twisted, not noisy, not 'appearance', not sneering or snarky or judgemental or disapproving or smug or cheap or weak or superficial.

Any step which helps me build that real heart...thats what i call god.

 

[Tez3]

It seems quite often though it is the better educated that are the fundamentalists not the less educated. I doubt that the world's problems would decrease if religions ceased to exist tbh, you don't really think the Middle East conflicts are about religions or that Northern Ireland's Troubles are actually about religious differences do you? That India's problems are just about Muslims versus Hindus? Look deeper into the problems and you will see the real cause, land, power and earth. The Crusades weren't about 'saving' Jerusalem from the Infidels, nor the Protestant v Catholic arguments about faith, it was power between sovereigns and the Popes. Look to human nature rather than the meaningless word 'religion' for the answers to the world's problems.

 

[Razor]

It seems quite often though it is the better educated that are the fundamentalists not the less educated. I doubt that the world's problems would decrease if religions ceased to exist tbh, you don't really think the Middle East conflicts are about religions or that Northern Ireland's Troubles are actually about religious differences do you? That India's problems are just about Muslims versus Hindus? Look deeper into the problems and you will see the real cause, land, power and earth. The Crusades weren't about 'saving' Jerusalem from the Infidels, nor the Protestant v Catholic arguments about faith, it was power between sovereigns and the Popes. Look to human nature rather than the meaningless word 'religion' for the answers to the world's problems.

Perhaps, but not generally. Last research I looked at showed a mild negative relationship between levels of fundamentalism and education. That was from a while ago though, it would be interesting to see if and how it has changed.

Okay, well that's just a difference of opinion then isn't it. I think it is unfair to lump all of these conflicts together. You cannot just assume that land and power (or any causes) are the dominant factors in all conflicts. Religion can be another cause of friction between people, functioning as yet another dividing line which exacerbates existing problems.

 

[Big Don]

. Also I think a related problem is ignorance+religion.

You don't have to add anything to ignorance to be dangerous.

 

[Razor]

You don't have to add anything to ignorance to be dangerous.

Very true! I think extras can make things worse in certain combinations though.

 

[seasoned]

thanks. Its the most pertinent comment so far. What does your wife do in those situations?

She listens, not with an open heart, but, from the heart. There are no pat answers, and each is dealt with in the moment. Her interaction is but an opportunity in the whole process, and she feels blessed to be a part of it.

 

[Tez3]

Perhaps, but not generally. Last research I looked at showed a mild negative relationship between levels of fundamentalism and education. That was from a while ago though, it would be interesting to see if and how it has changed.

Okay, well that's just a difference of opinion then isn't it. I think it is unfair to lump all of these conflicts together. You cannot just assume that land and power (or any causes) are the dominant factors in all conflicts. Religion can be another cause of friction between people, functioning as yet another dividing line which exacerbates existing problems.

I assume nothing having studied the causes of wars at Staff College, so show me any conflict that is about religion alone.

 

[fangjian]

I assume nothing having studied the causes of wars at Staff College, so show me any conflict that is about religion alone.

Obviously you can't. There are always other variables, and you can say that about anything. Show me a war that was fought about land alone. Or money, alone.

 

[Tez3]

Obviously you can't. There are always other variables, and you can say that about anything. Show me a war that was fought about land alone. Or money, alone.

How long have you got? I can show you plenty of wars purely about land, wealth ( not necessaroty money btw) and power. The world has a long history of such wars, what do you think the Roman empire was about?