Am I stupid or what

[Martial Tucker]

My school has a great reputation and hopefully so do I, but over the last few years these fly by night clubs pop up and within a few months they have 100-150 students paying $125.00 a month for three days a week, they use all these badges and patches and Waterdown the program so no-one sweats and they are growing. In the mean time I struggle to sign Io 3-5 students a month, that does not care if they sweat and like the hard training we do. My question is why are these school coming over the top of older established schools.

Terry, you've answered you own question here. You are selling legitimate martial training. That takes time and sweat. No two ways about it. The other school is selling "effortless feel-good", which pretty much describes our society lately. If you really want to make some $$$, and don't mind selling your "martial soul", come up with a program where people can earn a BB in one year by playing MA video games. Sign them to 1 year contracts
for $1500, and you supply the video games and the "lesson plans", and even self-administered monthy tests.
(Note: students are responsible for supplying their own "Whoppers" and "Biggie Fries" during their lessons)

Just keep doing what you're doing and be proud of it....

 

[Drac]

Ya get what ya pay for Terry..If they want the real deal they will come to you...

 

[jks9199]

Terry, they are successful because they do a good job of catering to the niche market they have selected. A local TSD school in my city always is packed to the gills with children students. Why? They pick up after school and provide a small snack before some karate activities. Parents find this to be an inexpensive way of keeping their little ones busy and safe until they can get off work.

Is it good martial arts? To many, probably not. Good business? You betcha.

Now what about this school you mention in particular. It sounds like you don't necessarily respect the training they offer. What do they have that makes people want to sign up? It can't be just the patches. Is it a fun place to train? Are the facilities well furnished and maintained? Do they have a financially successful children's program? If so, why?

I'm increasingly of the opinion that you CANNOT have your cake and eat it too. (Cue the retorts headed my way, I'm sure). I do not believe you can have one of those super schools with hundreds of students without watering down the instruction. If you are determined to offer good instruction and have high standards, I think you can have a profitable studio, but IMO it will never be the mint certain chain schools are.

If you want financial success, you have to sell what people want. These other schools are responding to a market demand for "martial-like activities" without the possibility of pain or injury. Just like many folks doing TaeBo with Billy Banks, or any other "cardio boxing/cardio kickboxing" program. They don't want to hit or be hit... they just like the exercise.

But you might be able to find a middle ground, and tweak your advertising and marketing so that you can enjoy reasonable financial success, as well as be true to your art.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Ya get what ya pay for Terry..If they want the real deal they will come to you...

Exactly what I was thinking. You might very well find some of those many students will crave something more and come knocking on your door. Hope so.

 

[CuongNhuka]

My school has a great reputation and hopefully so do I, but over the last few years these fly by night clubs pop up and within a few months they have 100-150 students paying $125.00 a month for three days a week, they use all these badges and patches and Waterdown the program so no-one sweats and they are growing. In the mean time I struggle to sign Io 3-5 students a month, that does not care if they sweat and like the hard training we do. My question is why are these school coming over the top of older established schools.

Martial Arts are a process. This is America. Few Americans like a process. Simple as that. On a related side note (or two). Economics is A-moral. Most people in a Capitlist soceity equate large payments with quality.

And by the way, if you teach it right, you're in the right. Trust me, when it comes right down to it, your students are much better off.

 

[TheOriginalName]

Hey there Terry,

I've only just started my MA journey - am 2 months into my training. So i figured i would offer some comments given that i have just been through the school selection process.

But before i do i want to say that all my comments are made with total respect - i only have a vague idea of what it would take to run a school and i am sure (based on your comments) that you have a true love for your art and are totally commited to your students.

When i was looking around i naturally was drawn to the more flashy schools for a look - and i have to say it is tempting to sign up with these schools. They are generally nice and new - and i think we all like the look of new things.

However i found that the passion was often not there - and if the instructors are not passionate how am i as their student meant to be passionate.

I also looked at a number of the smaller schools and found them extremely intimidating - when i entered there would only be a small number of student, usually highly ranked, and in most cases there was a lack of smiles - and i personally believe smiling whilst training hard is a sign of the passion.

I understand why you would be so frustrated with these "black belt factory" schools - they are watering down the art form, which is terrible.
Their strength is advertising and appeal
You strength is the art form.
Perhaps you could learn from their strength to reinforce yours.
Perhaps you could speak to an advertising organisation to assist you in lifting the profile of your school in the local area?
Perhaps you could introduce something like their badge system for motivating your students.
When i use to teach math i found that giving out 10cent stickers to students to reward effort increased their motivation - perhaps your compitition is onto something with this?

As i said before - i have no idea what your situation is nor do i fully understand what it takes to run a school, these are simply a bunch of thoughts i had when i read your post.

I wish you all the best for you school.

 

[Rich Parsons]

My school has a great reputation and hopefully so do I, but over the last few years these fly by night clubs pop up and within a few months they have 100-150 students paying $125.00 a month for three days a week, they use all these badges and patches and Waterdown the program so no-one sweats and they are growing. In the mean time I struggle to sign Io 3-5 students a month, that does not care if they sweat and like the hard training we do. My question is why are these school coming over the top of older established schools.

Terry,

Our school has very few students. We like it like that.

I know some people use a school to also make money and I respect that.

I stop by a local school. I always stop by new schools to check them out. I asked what they studied. The guy started in for the full court press to sell me. I smiled and explained that I was just looking. I trained elsewhere and was happy, but people ask me about what other arts are in the area so I like to know. He gave me a card with his website so I could check it out. While handing me the card he asked, where do you train. I told him where and what. His reply, was "Are you not that Private school that only accepts a few students?" I told him yes we keep the class size small as we cover our matt time, but are not trying to pay the bills of living off the club.

The good news is that some recognize that we are pretty much a semi-private or private club.

The bad news is that some thing what we have to offer is not good as we do not charge a large amount of money.

In a business, there is a happy medium for supply and demand that can be reached but it moves over time as the market fluxes.

From the Book, "The 75 Greatest Management Decisions ever made" by Stuart Cranier; Decision number 65: "Gillette decides to position itself at the high quality, premium-price end of the market. "

Good Luck in your business.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

If you still make enough profit, don't get discouraged. Keep going about the tried and tested method. I wouldn't like to knock another business man's hustle except that I hope his students understand YOU CAN'T GET SOMETHING FOR NOTHING. It's not the belt, it's the blood, sweat and tears, the strength in your core and the fire in your soul. I've said it before but the mcdojo's only serve to make yours more real, a diamond in the rough.

 

[Shotochem]

Hey Terry,

If you ever decide to move to NY and open up a dojo, I would be happy to be your first student.

Too many good dojos have caved in and sold out. Where I trained previously we were very much like you are now. Rent increases, utilities and other bills, students moving on ect.... made it more difficult.

The place I had become to love and enjoy had less and less adults and more and more kids. The overall toughness and hardcore attitude and training softened up and the emphasis changed from effectiveness to prettiness. I saw it happen before my eyes over a 2 year period.

The only thing that increased was the price$$$$$$

From all your postings you seem like a real dedicated MA who want to keep true to his art. We need more people like that or our arts will die.

Don't sweat it. The real students will come, learn and pass it on.

-Marc-

 

[Sukerkin]

I reckon that I pretty much fully agree with everything in this thread so far .

It's something we all know but it's good to be reassured sometimes.

Martial Arts schools should not be businesses really - well, no that's not quite what I mean, as If a school is the teachers sole source of income then of course it has to be run as a business.

However, allowing the business ideology to crowd out the martial ideology means that in the end what you have is a 'phys ed' company and not a martial arts school.

Not all comercial schools are pedalling rubbish of course. The Lau Gar school I trained at was highly 'successful' fiscally but provided effective martial training and demanded appropriate effort from it's students. The turnover rate was very high, as you'd expect but the influx of new people was constant and so the coffers stayed full.

The flip-side of this is my MJER training. The class size peaked at six and stayed there for the requisite number of years until we all made 1st Dan. Now the 'class' is sometimes just me! Thankfully, sensei does not see iaido instruction as a 'job', so the fact that he actually loses money on the sessions when only I am there does not cause him to stop. I think that such small class numbers are one reason why many iai schools also teach kendo - it's a way of keeping the attendance up .

Sword based arts are always going to have small classes, it's a simple matter of safety and geometry {you cannot get many people in a room when they're wanging katana's around :lol:}. Empty-hand arts will generally have bigger classes of course but I still believe that beyond a certain size of class any teacher, no matter how talented, cannot effectively teach.

I suppose that what I'm angling towards here, terry, is that as long as you're not financially hamstrung because of it, your approach of quality martial arts training, in preference to McDojo style posing, is by far and away the right one.

 

[IcemanSK]

I agree with the idea of "good business" but "bad martial arts." To many non-MA-ists, a BB is a BB. If it's at a school that requires little of students, so be it. If a kid shows up at Terry's school, the bar is set higher. Some will love it, & some will say, "I can get a BB easier at school X," or " my kid plays a lot at school X, I like that more."

MMA gyms are getting more students, but most don't cater to kids. Those who know business make good money there.

If you cater to kids, I still believe solid MA will draw them in. They might go to school X: but they'll stay at a good school longer.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Terry,

Our school has very few students. We like it like that.

I know some people use a school to also make money and I respect that.

I stop by a local school. I always stop by new schools to check them out. I asked what they studied. The guy started in for the full court press to sell me. I smiled and explained that I was just looking. I trained elsewhere and was happy, but people ask me about what other arts are in the area so I like to know. He gave me a card with his website so I could check it out. While handing me the card he asked, where do you train. I told him where and what. His reply, was "Are you not that Private school that only accepts a few students?" I told him yes we keep the class size small as we cover our matt time, but are not trying to pay the bills of living off the club.

The good news is that some recognize that we are pretty much a semi-private or private club.

The bad news is that some thing what we have to offer is not good as we do not charge a large amount of money.

In a business, there is a happy medium for supply and demand that can be reached but it moves over time as the market fluxes.

From the Book, "The 75 Greatest Management Decisions ever made" by Stuart Cranier; Decision number 65: "Gillette decides to position itself at the high quality, premium-price end of the market. "

Good Luck in your business.

Hey Rich,

Nothing wrong with small class sizes as that is the way I like to have my Training Hall as well. I also am very selective of students as I prefer not to just teach anybody. It is funny though that people sometimes judge overall on just how many people are coming. Sometimes positively as in the case of my students and sometimes negatively as in the case of someone looking at it from the outside. For myself since I do not make a living or need cash from the Training Hall it is a blessing because the practitioner's that I have training are all dedicated and great people.

Terry since I have seen your Training Hall and the spirit of your students I think if there was one thing you might have is just an eight week introductory course that meets once or twice a week for kids and one for teens and adults. Out of that course you could then filter people into your regular training possibly without it being quite so demanding on them initially. Build them up over the eight weeks for the hard training. Or have the introductory course happening at the same time as the advanced classes with both Yolanda and you teaching seperately. Your space is plenty big enough for that. No matter what, you pretty much just need a tweak here or there and your school will be doing great and you will not need to sell out. Your competition success is already known based on how well your students do!

 

[terryl965]

Sorry if I gave an impression of, I was not happy. I believe in my training and in my students and they believe in me. Me and the better half try our best to bring some great people every year to our school to help with there training and for them to become a better person and MA'ist. It is just in my area every week some new school opens up with all the bells and whistles and tend to get people to beleive thay are gettting real training and it just makes me sick. Every single person has the right to be where they want to be but I believe alot of them are being taken for what they consider to be a real SD or effective way of training. Thank to everyone for understanding my frustration over this matter an believe me it happens about three times a year and then I go on doing what I do and train those that wish to have proper training in TKD.

 

[bluemtn]

Yes the offer a BB program in 18 months and gaurentees this in writing people just do not understand, 3 times a week 12 classes a month for 18 so 226 classes they recieve what I cannot give them.

Well, I haven't read this all the way through (the thread, that is), but I think you just answered your own question here, Terry. It's called a McDojang or a belt factory as my GM fondly calls it... I have a term for it, but it really doesn't paint a pretty picture.

In my opinion, if you don't work HARD for it, give it extra work and then some, one wouldn't appreciate the meaning of the rank. A lot of people that comes from these schools, probably couldn't give you a good and decent answer as to what it means to them, to become a black belt.

 

[kidswarrior]

Terry, I'd like to give a response that may seem OT, but I don't think is in the end. You mentioned your 'better half' (us ole married guys better say that, huh?), and it seems to me you once said she is or was a teacher (K-12)? Anyway, I'm sure you know some teachers well, and how many of them could take their years of education, smarts, toughness (controlling a group of 30-40 kids, most people could fuhgit about it), and go someplace else and make 2-3 times the money? Answer: a lot of them. They stay because it's just what they do, not because they can't do anything else.

I sense the same about you. Could you take what you know as a Master in TKD and set up a McDojang or 4? Of course. Would you? Not in a million years. Now, just like those K-12 teachers will only ever make about 1/3 of what they're worth, you'll probably be a victim of your own integrity. Just part of the burden, Brother. But I admire you for it. Keep up the great work. There's no one else to do it. See, you could easily do the McDojang's job; but they could never do the work you do. So if not you, then who? :asian:

 

[Sukerkin]

Now that {points to post above} is a brilliant point.

Integrity is key in a teacher (whether the subject be maths or sword) and whilst it might not keep the wolf from the door in terms of dollars in the pocket, those who have integrity will sleep more comfortably in their skin than those that do not.

 

[Kacey]

It's not how many students you sign up - it's how many you keep because they want to be there, not just because the contract's not up, or they invested too much in equipment to quit right away, along with the quality of student you produce. I don't think you have anything to worry about.

 

[Darth F.Takeda]

It seems your a victum of the mindlessness of today's society, parents who sign their kids up for McDojangs are probably weak parents in many areas, they are setting their kids up to be frankly inferior people.

If you are giving rank for mere attendence and you always win, even if you lose, you will be ill prepared for real life and as a martial artist, you'll be headed for a life altering butt kicking.

Keep doing what your doiing Terry, it seems you are one of the few real TKD schools left.

maybe a few advertising and extra activaty ideas might help raise your rolls, but keep teaching as you were taught and as you and your Wife see fit.

Onega Shima and SHUGYO!

 

[Last Fearner]

Master Stoker,

I know exactly what you are talking about, because I have experienced the same thing for many years. I am the senior instructor in my area, not only by rank, but I have been teaching here for a lot longer than anyone else. Every so often, a new instructor pops up, and is the talk of the town. They quickly fill their classes and have a bunch of smiling faces jumping around the classroom floor. This can be disheartening to a serious instructor, because we know the difference between the quality of what we offer, yet the public still falls for their hype - - hook, line, and sinker.

I don't sense that you are dissatisfied with your school, or the way you teach. I don't believe that you fail to see the difference between you and them, or that you are considering becoming like them. What I sense is that you have moments like I do. "Why is the public so gullible and quick to sign up at a fluff school, and pay so much money to an fly-by-night operation when a genuine, dedicated, experienced instructor has been right here in town all along. It is sickening to see this happen.

The one thing that I keep in mind, which lifts my spirits, is that these schools come and go, and each will soon fail and close their doors while I am still here. Their temporary success is a flash in the pan, and will soon burn up and disappear. One year, at Halloween, I decorated my Dojang with store-bought plastic cut-outs of tombstones. On each tombstone, I put the name of a different fly-by-night school that had come and gone - - died out over the past three decades that I have been here.

Whenever one of my students brings up the fact that there is another new instructor at a local "Y," health-club, college, or a big flashy school, I just point out that one fact to them. There have been many before, and there will be many more. We teach quality Martial Art, and are legitimate, dedicated, professional instructors that take what we do seriously. I never comment specifically about one of those schools or instructors, but in general terms, I say that if someone wants to take their training as a joke, then let them join those schools. When the school closes, they will be looking for a more stable environment, and will probably be sorry they wasted their money at those other places.

My question is why are these school coming over the top of older established schools.

There are ways to take the wind of the the sails for those flashy schools with hundreds of students, and there are ways of getting hundreds of students without compromising your values. Rather than going into detail here, I'll PM you about a few things I have learned over the years.

CM D.J. Eisenhart

 

[Narsil]

lol. A martial arts school that doesnt require sweating? That is simply not martial arts. As someone that has just started training and all, and the fact that the kids pay outrageous sums of money for nothing(because that what it seems to be, is nothing) I myself using sweat profusely after i go through my kwon bop's, and my long and short forms. Then after techniques and grappling with a few of my friends im usually exausted. Thats what a typical day consists of. Not this, lets go to the dojo/dojang and jump around then go home, not exausted and not sweating, and not learning truly beneficial material we can use.

Also, what ive seen, is the schools that have over 100 students, do they ever come back, week after week, or are they new recruits. The dojang i train at has 5-6 regulars in the adults class, with around 7-8 in the childrens class, the thing ive come to see as a student is not the volume, its how well your dedicated to your art and to see the training come to its logical conclusion, your BB and beyond, and not a simple hobby you can quit after your tired of it.