Al Tracy and "Black Belt" vs. "Shodan"

[thesensei]

I am just curious. I have seen several Tracy practitioners make this distinction, and have seen it on Mr. Tracy's website. Why is there such a big deal made of this terminology difference?? I have been in a school where the term "Shodan" was used, and I have also been in a school that used the term "Black Belt," but both schools meant the same thing - one was a little more 'traditional,' and the other school was much more 'americanized.'

So why is this distinction made?

Thanks for the response,
Jeremiah

 

[Brother John]

I believe that the Tracy's tend to emphasize the Japanese elements of Kenpo and their ties with Mr. Mitose. Therefore insisting on using the Japanese terms for rank is a way to reinforce this emphasis.

I could be wrong,
but I don't think so.
Your Brother
John

 

[WhiteTiger]

The simple answer is if you receive a Black Belt certificate you do not have a Dan ranking. In schools where the Shodan rank is awarded receiving a Black Belt certificate usually means that although you knew the material to pass your test, something was missing. Either you are an inferior Black belt which should not be given a Dan rank, unless something changes, or perhaps you have an attitude problem and need to learn a little humility. In some cases I have seen Black Belt ranks given to those who have not yet gotten their Instructor Certifications. In all cases Shodan is the Rank, Black Belt is just another colored belt.

 

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by WhiteTiger

The simple answer is if you receive a Black Belt certificate you do not have a Dan ranking. In schools where the Shodan rank is awarded receiving a Black Belt certificate usually means that although you knew the material to pass your test, something was missing. Either you are an inferior Black belt which should not be given a Dan rank, unless something changes, or perhaps you have an attitude problem and need to learn a little humility. In some cases I have seen Black Belt ranks given to those who have not yet gotten their Instructor Certifications. In all cases Shodan is the Rank, Black Belt is just another colored belt.

that is what Al Tracy believes but it is of course nonsense- his argument is more subtley about who has the right to promote rank at all- if you read his story on their site he goes on about the mysterious here to unknown members of a Kenpo "Yudanshakai" which of course was said to have existed in Ed Parker's early days of teaching but as of yet- the only members he alludes to is the Tracy Brothers and of course William Chow. this group of folks were suppose to be the only ones who could legitimately hand out rank (how Parker's students had more say then him on rank was never clearly explained-- Chow later upset the cart himself when he declared himself 16 degrees --which of course there are no Japanese titles.)

Ed Parker dismissed using the japanese dan ranking terminology when he ceased to consider himself a student of Chow and proclaimed his own system. He established his own organization and handed out rank using american terms as in "degrees"-- this was in keeping with his americanization of Kenpo.

Al Tracy finds using this shodan vs black belt thing as a way of discrediting everyone in American Kenpo by suggesting that the word "shodan" means something more then the word "first degree"-- as to what that more is-- that's anyone's conjecture.

considering that what he does is of Parker lineage and the Tracy System is based on Parker's teachings of their time and NOT anything connected to Japanese Karate- well... confusing, n'est pas?

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by jazkiljok

Chow later upset the cart himself when he declared himself 16 degrees --which of course there are no Japanese titles.

Ninjutsu has 15 degrees I think, and judo 12 (in principle, but 10 in practice).

[Ed Parker] established his own organization and handed out rank using american terms as in "degrees

Was dan typically translated as "degree" before this or did Ed Parker start that?

 

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by arnisador

Ninjutsu has 15 degrees I think, and judo 12 (in principle, but 10 in practice).



Was dan typically translated as "degree" before this or did Ed Parker start that?

http://www.fightingarts.com/learning/history_subjects/belt2.shtml

http://www.judoinfo.com/obi.htm

ninjutsu is such a megesh- I’m sure that’s possible for some groups though I’ve only seen and read about those who keep with the 10 to 10 system. Kano’s judo has 12? haven't heard that one.

i don't know the answer as to when and how "degree" came into the MA language of usage. i would guess that it most likely was the best english translation of the dan system and simply made its way into our vernacular. It would however be a good bet that Ed Parker was the first to use it on a certificate of rank- btw Chow's certificate to Mr. Parker called it only a "black belt" -- "qualifying him to act as an instructor"

:asian:

 

[Hollywood1340]

Yes, Kano was elevated to 12th, there have been several tenth dans over the years.

 

[jazkiljok]

Originally posted by Hollywood1340

Yes, Kano was elevated to 12th, there have been several tenth dans over the years.

thank you-- i didn't know about that - - having researched it now i see that after he died his organization came up with this unique one-time only honorary rank of 12th for him-- it certainly wasn't Kano's idea- in fact he held no rank according to all the bio's i've read- something about the founder having no need for it.

the judo system itself was designed for 10th as the highest rung- and i believe as of yet, no one has elevated themselves beyond that... could be wrong.

peace.:asian:

 

[WhiteTiger]

Not to rehash old arguments, there are obvious differences of opinion about the "Dark Days" of Kenpo Politics. If you read my original post you will see the qualification, "In schools where the Shodan rank is awarded" as a quailifier. As for Mr. Tracy's "opinion", well, he was there at the time it all went down, and so far I have met noone else who was there at the time that will publicly dispute Mr. Tracy's "opinion".

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by WhiteTiger

that will publicly dispute Mr. Tracy's "opinion".

There are probably good reasons for that. Some dogs are better left sleeping.

 

[WhiteTiger]

Originally posted by Seig

There are probably good reasons for that. Some dogs are better left sleeping.

What is that supposed to mean?

 

[WhiteTiger]

Originally posted by jazkiljok

He established his own organization and handed out rank using american terms as in "degrees"-- this was in keeping with his americanization of Kenpo.

True enough, unfortunately he handed it out like candy on halloween.

 

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Seig

There are probably good reasons for that. Some dogs are better left sleeping.

Thanks, I enjoy a good nap, here, and there!

 

[Blindside]

True enough, unfortunately he handed it out like candy on halloween.

OK, I just resisted my urge to make a snappy comeback to this comment. I would recommend that others try to resist as well. This thread is about to blow-up into a Tracy vs. Parker thread and we really don't want this again, do we?

Lamont

 

[Seig]

Originally posted by WhiteTiger

What is that supposed to mean?

Sir,
It meant exactly what was said. This has the potential to become an extremely volatile thread. I am not one to down play Master tracy's importance nor his accomplishments. For all of the disagreements between the Parker and Tracy camps, the fact reamins wether either side wants to admit it or not, that Al and Ji Tracy were first generation Parker black belts and learned from SGM Parker. Both sides have, for various reasons, worked very hard to make sure there is a very diffinative distinction between the two. From my discussions with the "Seniors", I have come to understand that they do not wish to defame each other publicly. Too much of that has already occurred. When they disagree, they do it in private, among seniors.
:asian:

 

[WhiteTiger]

Agreed, at least on the point that this is becoming incendiary and that was not my intension. We can agree to disagree.