Air Rage

[Blackstaff]

Hi guys,

I know I've only posted a couple of times in the distant past with questions, but this thread somehow popped up in my email today, and it was an interesting read so I thought I'd respond. I'm

a. visibly physically disabled with a mobility impairment
b. young but not a trained martial artist (I like it here because I'm a huge MA enthusiast who can't really do martial arts well)
c. extremely terrified of flying (but have flown on several occasions as my partner lives across the ocean).

Like many here, I think the situation really depends. For a few reasons, and most of mine aren't related to training. I'd be concerned about either somehow making the situation worse, or getting in big trouble and facing legal troubles/not being allowed to fly in future, etc. etc.

That said, there are some clear-cut scenarios where, despite my limitations, I might try to bop someone with my stick if I thought it was necessary. As another poster said, a plane is a lifeboat in which you may need to act for your good and everyone else's.

In short, my lack of training (and my being disabled) wouldn't stop me from acting if I thought it could do more harm than good.

It is true that I've never faced an air rage situation, but I like to think I know myself well enough to know what I would do.

(Plus, this kind of altercation would up my terror factor, and I'd want to put an end to that and return to a normal state of extreme anxiety. )

I thought you might want to hear from an untrained cripple just for a slightly different perspective.

 

[Marlene Morga]

Since January first, 2021, the FAA has reported 2,500 reports of unruly passengers on airplanes including 1,900 concerning the federal mask mandate.

Let’s forget about the mask mandate for now. That still leaves 600 incidents of unruly passengers on planes.

And let’s forget about incidents on the ground.....

We’re all trained Martial Artists here. If you’re in the air, and someone goes off and assaults a flight attendant or tries to breache the cockpit - will you

Since January first, 2021, the FAA has reported 2,500 reports of unruly passengers on airplanes including 1,900 concerning the federal mask mandate.

Let’s forget about the mask mandate for now. That still leaves 600 incidents of unruly passengers on planes.

And let’s forget about incidents on the ground.....

We’re all trained Martial Artists here. If you’re in the air, and someone goes off and assaults a flight attendant or tries to breache the cockpit - will you get involved?

I'm not sure if there are any officials in the flight who would stop the person. But if I saw any sort of assaulting while on a plane, I would block the person's attack, defend the flight attendant, and try to reason with the attacker. Perhaps the person is just having a bad day or is stressed too. But for that person to hit someone in anger is a big no on my conscience. I would get between the assailant and the victim, defending the victim by shielding them with my body When I had enough, I would say to the attacker to stay away from the flight attendant or victim and tell them to calm down. I would never counterattack because there would be a consequence.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My dad worked as a doorman in NY. When he signed up he was told that part of his duties was first-level security; in fact, he was hired specifically because of his experience as a cop. Not sure if that's the norm or not, or part of the contract of the doormen that you're referring to (I'm not familiar with that story).

Same deal with the guy I’ve worked for. Bouncers inside are supposed to deal with trouble inside, but we were expected to step up if needed.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It might not be so bad. After all, the presence of bouncers doesn't seem to ruin the enjoyment of anyone at the nightclub that's not acting a fool.

What would be the difference if we had them on airplanes?

Some of the bouncers I’ve worked with would make the plane rather crowded. Those were some seriously big dudes.

 

[Steve]

My dad worked as a doorman in NY. When he signed up he was told that part of his duties was first-level security; in fact, he was hired specifically because of his experience as a cop. Not sure if that's the norm or not, or part of the contract of the doormen that you're referring to (I'm not familiar with that story).

NYC doormen fired for not intervening in attack

The staff are accused of watching an attack on a 65-year-old Asian-American woman in Manhattan.

www.bbc.com

Link to the story.

 

[Steve]

It might not be so bad. After all, the presence of bouncers doesn't seem to ruin the enjoyment of anyone at the nightclub that's not acting a fool.

What would be the difference if we had them on airplanes?

I think the common denominator is alcohol. I've noticed that some airlines are not bringing back sale of liquor, beer and wine on all flights to help with the unruly passengers.

American, Southwest put off plans to serve alcohol after passenger disruptions, assault on board

Southwest pauses plan to resume alcohol sales after flight attendant assault

www.cnbc.com

 

[Steve]

Same deal with the guy I’ve worked for. Bouncers inside are supposed to deal with trouble inside, but we were expected to step up if needed.

Just to be sure, when we say doormen, are we talking about at bars or at an office building? I have in mind the latter.

 

[Buka]

I think the common denominator is alcohol. I've noticed that some airlines are not bringing back sale of liquor, beer and wine on all flights to help with the unruly passengers.

American, Southwest put off plans to serve alcohol after passenger disruptions, assault on board

Southwest pauses plan to resume alcohol sales after flight attendant assault

www.cnbc.com

That's the truth, Steve. Other than that it's just major ash wholes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Just to be sure, when we say doormen, are we talking about at bars or at an office building? I have in mind the latter.

Ah. I was thinking bars.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The FAA needs to re-address the issue of allowing cabin doors to be opened in-flight. The first time some yob decides to act the fool on a plane after that, yeet him or her directly from the plane at Angels 45. Things should settle down after that.

That's not actually possible. Ignoring for the moment the legal ramifications, it's impossible to open the door of an airliner at 45,000 feet.
Airliner doors have to be pulled IN before they can be opened.
Airliners are typically pressurized at 8000 feet. That's 10.5 PSI.
At 45,000 feet there is 2.1PSI outside the door.
If the door is 3' wide and 6' high, that is 24 square feet, or 288 square inches.
So there is 288x2.1 PSI or 604.8lbs pushing inward on the door.
There is 288x10.5 PSI or 3,024lbs pushing out.
I don't think you can pull that hard.

Coincidentally, there was an article in my newsfeed this morning about some yabbo trying to breach the cockpit of a Delta flight. The article says he was taken down by passengers and crew. I watched the video, and while it doesn't show the entire event, I didn't actually see any crew member do anything except hand then passengers a zip tie cuff after a few of them sat on the guy.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Coincidentally, there was an article in my newsfeed this morning about some yabbo trying to breach the cockpit of a Delta flight. The article says he was taken down by passengers and crew. I watched the video, and while it doesn't show the entire event, I didn't actually see any crew member do anything except hand then passengers a zip tie cuff after a few of them sat on the guy

I saw that article, too. Good to see folks helping out where it's needed.

 

[Tez3]

Breach the cockpit yes, flight attendant...only if there is more than one attacking the flight attendant....as long as it isn't taken to far.

Cockpits are now locked from the inside so they aren't breached. The door won't be unlocked.

 

[Graywalker]

Cockpits are now locked from the inside so they aren't breached. The door won't be unlocked.

No reason to even pay attention then.

 

[Diagen]

So, just to make sure I understand, you're saying that you should fight back and presume that the bad guy will not go away? If someone points a knife at you and says, "Give me your wallet." You would fight back? Every time? And that not doing so is just victimhood?

Huh. I'm pretty sure I've read self defense advice from "experts" on this forum that say the opposite.

I guess, if you're going to fight back, learning to fight would be a good idea. Maybe some of the folks in the aikido thread would benefit from hearing it from you.

Not fighting back until the guy actually attacked is how I lost an eye. On the two occasions that I've been confronted by a knife-wielding assailant since then, I attacked immediately. And emerged unscathed. So yes, it's quite likely that I would fight back.

Haha Steve you need to wake up man. People will hurt you when they're right in front of you. Life isn't just about running from your problems and hoping someone with balls will take care of it for you or that it will just go away. Very poor perspective on things, not solid or wise at all.
Also if the fight is a "for pride and honor" sort of fight, no reason to walk away unless you fear them or the feeling of emptiness afterward. Ironically everyone is for zen and emptiness so clearly there is a lack of perspective here. Can't really be called social even, if you avoid competition and confrontation haha. Not like everyone can't go back to playing video games or whatever after. Everyone's life and self built on chopsticks with glass walls or something.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Im going to revise. As long as the cockpit isnt breeched, the plane isnt comprised then they just land ASAP or not take off. The defence is done in screening and there. the only people who are going to breech a cockpit for a airliner probbly would be stopped before getting onto it. You may run the risk of getting a hijacking charge yourself pending how thats worded or another criminal charge pending on laws though.

Also if cabin crew dont get any training, then maybe the ideas of giving pilots pistols instead of the air marshal programe may have been better. (thats not the entire argument for that, but its a joke)

Id also view it morally and it may potetionally be pending laws legally required for companies to adequetely provide security, or some to do that. There are also air marshal programes and they are dotted about. I dont know the extent of their deployments and they dont discuss them usually. I think there may be a domestic and international version. or one or the other pending country.

Your more or less talking about somone irate from someone else doing something as opposed to a specfic attack, if its a specfic attack youd have little chance, and not many people are let on if they are beligerant or intoxicated etc before takeoff. (at all for that matter, if its one incident of beligerancy and they are calm for baording maybe)
and then in all honestly they (crew) should have been trained to deal with it. Unless you happened to learn how to stop yourself from being reduced to viscera in your Kung Fu clases.

As for me ever getting on a plane:

ah now that would be a intresting martial art, entirely based around fighting in a commercial airliner.

 

[Buka]

Here in the U.S. a lot of pilots fly armed, some passengers as well. (off duty Law Enforcement)

As for Air Marshals, there are very few. And they're real easy to spot if you know what to look for.

After 9/11 they started a huge Air Marshal program. I applied but didn't get the job. There were so many applicants they only considered those with a degree in Law Enforcement, hence I was ruled out.

Six months later over seventy five percent of the new Marshals quit. They said they couldn't take the bordeom and the rules. (no watching movies, no reading of anything, not shutting your eyes other than blinking, sit up straight, no reclining your seat etc)

 

[Steve]

Here in the U.S. a lot of pilots fly armed, some passengers as well. (off duty Law Enforcement)

As for Air Marshals, there are very few. And they're real easy to spot if you know what to look for.

After 9/11 they started a huge Air Marshal program. I applied but didn't get the job. There were so many applicants they only considered those with a degree in Law Enforcement, hence I was ruled out.

Six months later over seventy five percent of the new Marshals quit. They said they couldn't take the bordeom and the rules. (no watching movies, no reading of anything, not shutting your eyes other than blinking, sit up straight, no reclining your seat etc)

Reminds me of Kevin Hart in Hobbs and Shaw.