Aikido.. The reality?

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drop bear

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no you dont,

please write fact after your statement so I can get more points
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This is the Australian Judo federation.
There is more in there but I am running out of time. And it is a PDF.

And I dif put a Question mark after the sentence. So it wasn't a statement.
 

Shatteredzen

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Aikido would be great if it works. Everone would love to do what Aikido people appear to do. But the best we have is a couple of guys say so. Mabye one or two guys in the world who can do it live. And a few examples of Aikido like techniques that have been successful in the street.

So the best most people have is that rolling around on the ground stuff. Because that actually kind of works in real life.

The throwing people to the ground, using gravity and positioning to keep them there and then applying restraints is just functionally more reliabe.

There are far more than one or two people in the world who can pull off the techniques live, that's more fud. Most police defensive tactics courses at a local and national level rely equally on Aikido, Judo and BJJ. I've seen plenty of other officers make this stuff work and you have had two LEO's here tell you the same. We've linked the videos back and forth, Rokas even changed his opinion to the fact that its a training issue. We can argue over how practical or effective something is or why you might want to use an aikido technique over something else, but its the same subjectivism we have been going round and round about.

Pain compliance, controlled throws and locks, less lethal force is a good tool to have in the toolkit. You want to spend the least amount of time training to learn how to fight? Not Aikido's thing, worst choice you could make. Want to learn how to protect yourself and maybe not hurt the guy trying to hurt you? Now we walk into the realm of where Aikido has something to offer. The bokken techniques were adapted from bayonet fighting and they work for weapon retention techniques, so they get used by the military. The chances of you getting rushed by a drunk, ESPECIALLY as a bouncer is much likelier than you having to go three rounds in the octagon as someone who doesn't compete. Aikido may be a terrible choice to fight off a pack of ninjas but thankfully, most of us will never have to do that. Punch a guy, even as a bouncer defending yourself and the guy falls and cracks his skull, you are going to jail. I know its easy to dismiss, but there's reasons for it, maybe not for you, but I'm very happy with the time and energy put into it and out of everything I have trained, I have used the Aikido and Judo by far more than anything else.
 

Shatteredzen

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View attachment 26690

This is the Australian Judo federation.
There is more in there but I am running out of time. And it is a PDF.

And I dif put a Question mark after the sentence. So it wasn't a statement.
The contest points also refer to Kata competition unless Australia is different than the US and Japan. Even the Dan don't require any full contact sparring or competition.
 

Martial D

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Wow, what thread are you reading? First, I've been cheerful throughout this, you feel threatened and "raged" on because you are having your position challenged and you don't have any supporting argument other than wanting to have the last word. Working through logic knots with people who are using simple logical fallacy is me taking the time to help you see the problem with your own argument. Your seniority on an internet martial arts board doesn't mean anything and it doesn't strengthen the logical position you have taken.

You have taken the absolute position of "this doesn't work", its the entirety of your argument. You have to be right, 100% without exception for that position to be true. Two different internet martial arts nerds have told you, "not really, it works". All that made up mojo in your head about how long you have lurked this board berating Aikido peeps, irrelevant, your argument is null and void, its one internet nerd versus two, your mileage may vary. I stated in my first or second post that its impossible to "prove" a martial arts discussion on the internet, that hasn't changed.
This amuses me. Three seperate times you have abandoned all semblance of discussion to try to discredit me, personally, as if you know my history or background, and you've done it to others as well.

I have never said 'it doesn't work'. I started by asking you admittedly pointed questions you politician spoke your way around, and then claimed to have answered...as if people can't just go back and read for themselves.

Anyway. Carry on. Best of luck.
 

Shatteredzen

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This amuses me. Three seperate times you have abandoned all semblance of discussion to try to discredit me, personally, as if you know my history or background, and you've done it to others as well.

I have never said 'it doesn't work'. I started by asking you admittedly pointed questions you politician spoke your way around, and then claimed to have answered...as if people can't just go back and read for themselves.

Anyway. Carry on. Best of luck.
They sure can, all my wild claims like "hey Aikido is good for some stuff" and your very gracious and not at all snarky or gatekeeping questions you ignored page after page of answers to until you just started in with the "Aikido is imaginary" shtick.
 

Gerry Seymour

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If we compare wrestling, Judo, and Aikido, we can see that their contact points are different.

- Wrestlers like to control the shoulder gate.
- Judo guys like to control the elbow gate.
- Aikido guys like to control the wrist gate.

Why are the difference? IMO, the closer the control, the less mobility your opponent will have.

I have never seen "arm wrapping" used in Aikido. Do Aikido guys give their opponent too much freedom (such as free elbow joints)?
You've captured them all at different points in technique, which exaggerates the issue. Judo, at the point of throwing, is as close as most of wrestling. You can find that in Aikido, but on average, it's working further away at initial contact, so there will usually be more space at the time of the throw. What your first two pictures more accurately represent is the difference in the rules approach. Judo tends to stay a bit apart until an attempt at a throw - it's my understanding this is a result of the rules, not the basics of the art.
 

Hanzou

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It's a joke about force. Judo in Japanese is "the gentle way". It does not force you to do full contact sparring however, it gives you the option.

Bad joke is bad. I would argue that Sport/Olympic Judoka are by far the best exponents of Judo on the planet.
 

Gerry Seymour

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If all you're doing is two-person katas with a compliant uke, you're not going to be as well prepared.
More to the point, IMO - you don't know how prepared you are. You might be quite good, but wouldn't know it. You might also be quite bad and not know it.
 

Hanzou

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More to the point, IMO - you don't know how prepared you are. You might be quite good, but wouldn't know it. You might also be quite bad and not know it.

I would say that if you are constantly full contact sparring with resistant partners, you're far more prepared than someone doing 2 person compliant katas. If I'm constantly throwing around 300lb people in my Judo class, throwing around a 300lb drunk at a bar should be a walk in the park.
 

Gerry Seymour

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judo only forces live full contact if you chose to go the sports route, otherwise it forces nothing at all
Judo's common training approach (from my experience and what I've heard from others here and elsewhere) involves live work with a resisting opponent/partner. There are probably exceptions, but that seems to be core to the system. This was true within my training group - none of whom were still competing at the time, though we trained as if we were (it was the plan, but the instructor got a job in another country).
 

Gerry Seymour

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You have to compete to grade?
Is that true? I know it wasn't universally true at one point - I know at least two people who (decades ago) took grappling knowledge in and tested to grade in a fairly short period of time. Neither competed in Judo competitions. Those may be extreme exceptions.
 

Gerry Seymour

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This is like the BJJ in law enforcement example. You can use BJJ as a cop, but it puts you in a seriously screwed up position tactically, it exposes your firearm and then you have the problem of being on the ground to get picked off by the opponents friends. Believe it or not, there are lots of reasons to not go to the ground in a fight, once again, the UFC is not an end all be all example of effectiveness in martial arts, it highly favors grappling and ground fighting because you cannot strike the back of the head, the spine, a downed fighter, there's no head butting, no slamming a fighter on the ground, etc. Can you slam someone in Judo? Yes, I said this. If you need to go for the slam, then you use it. Once again, this is an attempt to force a square peg into a round hole. All of these techniques are situational and the Aikido complements the Judo, its not trying to replace it. BJJ has no striking, do we compare it to striking arts and say "well since it has no strikes, this system is imaginary", no, you train strikes, the striking complements the BJJ.
BJJ isn't about pulling guard. It's about controlling things below standing level. When things get physical for cops, it's going to the ground. BJJ is a pretty good match for controlling the situation.
 

Shatteredzen

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BJJ isn't about pulling guard. It's about controlling things below standing level. When things get physical for cops, it's going to the ground. BJJ is a pretty good match for controlling the situation.
Except if you go to the ground to wrestle one person, you are vulnerable to anyone else around you, there's also the gun that you have on your hip. Once the suspect is on the ground, the fight should be mostly over, its a matter of putting restraints on a person who is prone at that point. BJJ works well on the ground against a single opponent, that does not mean you want to be on your back with an armbar when you are arresting someone in a parking lot, at night, with five of their friends standing next to you. Yes, you will stack the deck and get backup if you can, but if the altercation begins before you have called for the backup from dispatch, now you have to do that, protect your weapon and arrest the guy who you are fighting with. BJJ is used to fight back to your feet or as a last ditch defense if things go to the ground. If you make a habit of trying to subdue suspects by wrestling with them on the ground instead of taking them down and then getting on top of them you will absolutely get hurt on the job or worse.
 

Buka

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I would say that if you are constantly full contact sparring with resistant partners, you're far more prepared than someone doing 2 person compliant katas. If I'm constantly throwing around 300lb people in my Judo class, throwing around a 300lb drunk at a bar should be a walk in the park.
I gotta' get me some of that walk in the park stuff.
 

jobo

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I would say that if you are constantly full contact sparring with resistant partners, you're far more prepared than someone doing 2 person compliant katas. If I'm constantly throwing around 300lb people in my Judo class, throwing around a 300lb drunk at a bar should be a walk in the park.
what happens if your class doesn't have any morbidly obese people in ? then your clearly not prepared
 

jobo

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Bad joke is bad. I would argue that Sport/Olympic Judoka are by far the best exponents of Judo on the planet.
if they are at the Olympics thats a good call, but what about the other 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999%
 

Shatteredzen

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what happens if your class doesn't have any morbidly obese people in ? then your clearly not prepared
At Hanzou's gym they just stack up white belts until they get 300 lbs and then throw them in a group.
 

Hanzou

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Except if you go to the ground to wrestle one person, you are vulnerable to anyone else around you, there's also the gun that you have on your hip. Once the suspect is on the ground, the fight should be mostly over, its a matter of putting restraints on a person who is prone at that point. BJJ works well on the ground against a single opponent, that does not mean you want to be on your back with an armbar when you are arresting someone in a parking lot, at night, with five of their friends standing next to you. Yes, you will stack the deck and get backup if you can, but if the altercation begins before you have called for the backup from dispatch, now you have to do that, protect your weapon and arrest the guy who you are fighting with. BJJ is used to fight back to your feet or as a last ditch defense if things go to the ground. If you make a habit of trying to subdue suspects by wrestling with them on the ground instead of taking them down and then getting on top of them you will absolutely get hurt on the job or worse.

We can look at the George Floyd case, the Jacob Blake case, and the Rayshard Brooks case to showcase how valuable ground fighting can be for law enforcement.
 
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