Aikido.. The reality?

[Shatteredzen]

Would your washed up ammy have more under the hood than your average 20 year veteran in some systems?

No, thats the point, I can watch UFC undercard fights and still see horrible technique, local fights and many of these amateur MMA types have a fight camp or less, or wrestled in highschool. Maybe the McDojo thing is more pervasive in the US than Australia?

 

[Steve]

I am not saying that traditional uke/nage is a validation. What you see in Uke/Nage is not itself a validation or invalidation, it is a training method. I think on its own it leads to bad habits, but it has practical uses for judging form and demonstrating or even practicing timing and flow. The point that Aikido is not useful has been argued multiple times in this thread, hence my statement, not that you had argued this.

Fair enough. We agree that a traditional uke/nage is not validation (or invalidation). Can you share what you think IS validation of all of these really cool, high amplitude throws we see in Aikido demonstrations?

What is practical and impractical in Aikido has very much to do with how it is taught and trained, we see the stereotypical kote gaishi attempt to counter the jab because it is getting taught that way and perpetuated by a lack of resistive training. The Aikido counter to the jab is actually space, not a kote gaishi, the kote gaishi is supposed to counter a grab to the gi or wrist. So now we have to talk about entering and exiting the opponents circle of influence, breaking the line of the opponents movement, etc, to really start to see all of the things that go into one of these techniques and what makes up the Aikido rather than just the one off situational "move" that you are wondering about. Are these things being taught in Aikido schools? I don't know that they are, or if they are, if they are getting the appropriate emphasis above and beyond the individual techniques and the pretty dancing.

We're getting into some kind of esoteric stuff. While there is room for things that are complex (i.e., difficult to learn, reliant on other skills, etc), to be practical, you generally have ample evidence of this. There are plenty of things that I know are practical that I also know I cannot perform. I know that neurosurgery is complex, but practical, because even though I cannot do it, I can see it done.

So, all that to say, I agree with much of what you say above, but I don't think it adds up the way you think it does.

So does this mean Aikido is impractical because we have a bunch of Aikido guys trying to kote gaishi off a jab? No, those students shouldn't have been taught things like that and what would have fixed it is attempting to apply it against a resisting opponent. I'm not blaming the student so much as the understanding of the system by the instructor base. This is further complicated by what was done to the system post world war 2. I am a fan of resurrecting the old style of Aikido and doing the work to update it to this post MMA/BJJ world we live in.

Good luck to you. I don't think you and I are on the same page about how you might do it, but I wish you well.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Fair enough. We agree that a traditional uke/nage is not validation (or invalidation). Can you share what you think IS validation of all of these really cool, high amplitude throws we see in Aikido demonstrations?



We're getting into some kind of esoteric stuff. While there is room for things that are complex (i.e., difficult to learn, reliant on other skills, etc), to be practical, you generally have ample evidence of this. There are plenty of things that I know are practical that I also know I cannot perform. I know that neurosurgery is complex, but practical, because even though I cannot do it, I can see it done.

So, all that to say, I agree with much of what you say above, but I don't think it adds up the way you think it does.



Good luck to you. I don't think you and I are on the same page about how you might do it, but I wish you well.

We have already done the back and forth video thing, you are free to wade through the thread for those.

As far as the "esoteric stuff" there's nothing remarkable being talked about here, you can't equate uke/nage to practical application of technique, its not a reference point anymore than a kata is. There's nothing overly complex being discussed here, if I lost you talking about the use of a wristlock and the Aikido principles of entering/blending, etc that's not because its esoteric, its that you are here discussing a system you don't understand asking to see "proof" of something you would not recognize if it was video taped and shown to you. You want video "proof" of a guy not standing in range of a jab? Are you asking for video of someone explaining why this is incorrect application of the technique? What is esoteric here? What is "it" that you think I'm adding up incorrectly?

I'm not sure what page you are on, you are not saying anything so much as chiming in to disparate parts of the conversation that you jumped into without reading to catch up first.

 

[Steve]

We have already done the back and forth video thing, you are free to wade through the thread for those.

As far as the "esoteric stuff" there's nothing remarkable being talked about here, you can't equate uke/nage to practical application of technique, its not a reference point anymore than a kata is. There's nothing overly complex being discussed here, if I lost you talking about the use of a wristlock and the Aikido principles of entering/blending, etc that's not because its esoteric, its that you are here discussing a system you don't understand asking to see "proof" of something you would not recognize if it was video taped and shown to you. You want video "proof" of a guy not standing in range of a jab? Are you asking for video of someone explaining why this is incorrect application of the technique? What is esoteric here? What is "it" that you think I'm adding up incorrectly?

I'm not sure what page you are on, you are not saying anything so much as chiming in to disparate parts of the conversation that you jumped into without reading to catch up first.

Seems like you're getting frustrated. You asked a lot of questions in your post. Are they rhetorical or are you looking for an answer? Just don't want to waste my time or see you get more frustrated.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Seems like you're getting frustrated. You asked a lot of questions in your post. Are they rhetorical or are you looking for an answer? Just don't want to waste my time or see you get more frustrated.

That's an assumption. We are almost at 60 pages into this conversation, much of it being circular logic and strawman arguments. My general unwillingness to rehash that for someone is not the same as frustration. I am simply not going to engage in the same exact circular arguments with you because you do not wish to read the thread you are replying to. When you reduce a substantive reply to "esotericism" because it contains some basic principles about the subject you are discussing that you do not understand, that foundational understanding is more of a precursor to your meaningful participation in the dialogue than it is an attempt at mysticism.

 

[Martial D]

The moral of the thread; Some people enjoy fantasy martial arts, and are happy in their faith based beliefs, while others are rational and need to see evidence and results to believe.

This is no different than a religious debate.

/Thread

 

[Shatteredzen]

The moral of the thread; Some people enjoy fantasy martial arts, and are happy in their faith based beliefs, while others are rational and need to see evidence and results to believe.

This is no different than a religious debate.

/Thread

it's more of a Schrodinger's cat issue, you are just on the outside of the box screaming for cat pics.

 

[Martial D]

it's more of a Schrodinger's cat issue, you are just on the outside of the box screaming for cat pics.

No. That's a bad analogy. The point of shroedingers cat is that it's unknowable. Whether a martial art can be effectively used is not only knowable, it's also falsifiable and reproducible.

In this day and age it's only the faithful and those so deep in sunk cost they can't even be honest with themselves that argue these things. Otherwise there is no need, as the evidence is there both to be observed and reproduced for yourself.

This is why nobody can make the argument that boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, or BJJ are ineffective, while fantasy based people just have anecdotes and incredulity.

 

[Steve]

That's an assumption. We are almost at 60 pages into this conversation, much of it being circular logic and strawman arguments. My general unwillingness to rehash that for someone is not the same as frustration. I am simply not going to engage in the same exact circular arguments with you because you do not wish to read the thread you are replying to. When you reduce a substantive reply to "esotericism" because it contains some basic principles about the subject you are discussing that you do not understand, that foundational understanding is more of a precursor to your meaningful participation in the dialogue than it is an attempt at mysticism.

So this is you not frustrated? Okay. It tickles my fancy that you joined the thread like 200 posts in acting like an OG. I don't think you're cut out for this online forum thing.
I do agree with you about your circular logic and strawman arguments, though, and appreciate that you won't engage in that crap with me. Much obliged.

 

[Steve]

The moral of the thread; Some people enjoy fantasy martial arts, and are happy in their faith based beliefs, while others are rational and need to see evidence and results to believe.

This is no different than a religious debate.

/Thread

Hey, he's free to enjoy whatever he wants. Live and let live. I just wish he were a little more self-aware about it, and I hope he doesn't teach self defense. In addition to concerns about whether it's good for self defense, it just doesn't seem like he's got the right temperament for the job.

 

[Shatteredzen]

No. That's a bad analogy. The point of shroedingers cat is that it's unknowable. Whether a martial art can be effectively used is not only knowable, it's also falsifiable and reproducible.

In this day and age it's only the faithful and those so deep in sunk cost they can't even be honest with themselves that argue these things. Otherwise there is no need, as the evidence is there both to be observed and reproduced for yourself.

This is why nobody can make the argument that boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, or BJJ are ineffective, while fantasy based people just have anecdotes and incredulity.

You have had two different people with experience in this thread telling you it works, your choice to not believe personal anecdotes is valid, but also not determinate in anything other than your own perception of reality. Your lack of belief does not invalidate my personal experience, nor does it turn my lived experience from reality into fantasy. No one is here trying to recruit you into Aikido or trying to persuade you into believing anything. From your point of view I'm some guy on the internet practicing a make believe martial art. From my perspective since I've seen it work and done it, your position is the undeniably naive one. Its still the internet so neither of us win but I'm still sitting here chuckling at you being silly.

 

[Shatteredzen]

So this is you not frustrated? Okay. It tickles my fancy that you joined the thread like 200 posts in acting like an OG. I don't think you're cut out for this online forum thing.
I do agree with you about your circular logic and strawman arguments, though, and appreciate that you won't engage in that crap with me. Much obliged.

Frustrated?

 

[Shatteredzen]

Hey, he's free to enjoy whatever he wants. Live and let live. I just wish he were a little more self-aware about it, and I hope he doesn't teach self defense. In addition to concerns about whether it's good for self defense, it just doesn't seem like he's got the right temperament for the job.

We went over the whole self defense thing already, you should really just go back and read and then come back when you have caught up.

 

[Steve]

Frustrated?

Not me. I'm very amused.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Not me. I'm very amused.

See? Assumptions are silly!

 

[Steve]

See? Assumptions are silly!

Then stop assuming. It's very simple.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Then stop assuming. It's very simple.

Good advice, give it a shot

 

[drop bear]

No, thats the point, I can watch UFC undercard fights and still see horrible technique, local fights and many of these amateur MMA types have a fight camp or less, or wrestled in highschool. Maybe the McDojo thing is more pervasive in the US than Australia?

Ufc under card guys in Australia generally have a few title belts behind them.

The sloppy technique thing gets thrown around a bit. I don't think it is as valid from a combat sports position where sloppiness doesn't matter. As say a performance position where it does.

You have had two different people with experience in this thread telling you it works, your choice to not believe personal anecdotes is valid, but also not determinate in anything other than your own perception of reality. Your lack of belief does not invalidate my personal experience, nor does it turn my lived experience from reality into fantasy. No one is here trying to recruit you into Aikido or trying to persuade you into believing anything. From your point of view I'm some guy on the internet practicing a make believe martial art. From my perspective since I've seen it work and done it, your position is the undeniably naive one. Its still the internet so neither of us win but I'm still sitting here chuckling at you being silly.

Are you really going to go with this line of argument?

Because this is kind of everything that is wrong with martial arts.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Ufc under card guys in Australia generally have a few title belts behind them.

The sloppy technique thing gets thrown around a bit. I don't think it is as valid from a combat sports position where sloppiness doesn't matter. As say a performance position where it does.



Are you really going to go with this line of argument?

Because this is kind of everything that is wrong with martial arts.

I think there's a few crossover fights we could reference that show some UFC champs having issues against Boxers.


I disagree regarding my line of argument. Guys commenting outside their knowledge base to shout down and disrespect other systems is kind of everything wrong in martial arts. The ego behind the dojo wars stuff is why we don't have a more collaborative atmosphere between systems and schools and while it may appear to effectively popularize people's chosen system for a time, it hampers the growth of the community as a whole. I'd rather have a community built on mutual respect and collaboration with some personal anecdotes thrown in than what we have now where very few people encourage their peers to check their ego's instead of trying to demean or belittle what other people are doing.

You can take this conversation as a microcosm of that problem, of the detractors, you are the only one to sit down and go point by point after some coaxing to have a legitimate discussion. While you have been fairly cranky at times, you have made good points and we have had some productive discussion. Despite this, however, our ability to even have a discussion starts with one of us being willing to trust and honor the anecdotal data point that the other one has some basis of knowledge and expertise that gives their words merit. The problem with the dogpile crowd is a lack of reciprocity in that same respect. I gave you my abbreviated CV as a fighter, like you have provided yours, not to grandstand but to establish a baseline of where I was drawing that information from, in hopes of receiving the basic level of respect that I am who I claim to be. So far, while we have disagreed, its mostly been on a point to point basis, not through ad hominem attacks or disingenuous argument. You are the exception to the others, who have been far less good natured in their approach to our talk.

I get it, people see an Aikido dogpile and it looks great, so they jump in. I've ceded almost every possible point brought up about Aikido and given a pretty honest depiction from my point of view as to what it is and isn't. The only thing I have said in its favor is that the system itself, despite its flaws and problems, is valuable, applicable and worth saving. That singular statement has spawned challenges to fight, some Steven Segal commentary, a proverbial buffet of ad hominem attacks, strawman arguments, gas lighting and general fury that I won't concede Aikido as an imaginary martial art to the court of public opinion. Why exactly would I do that when I have years of experience with using it successfully? I'm not trying to get your fifty bucks or trying to teach you anything, I'm just disagreeing with you on the internet based on my personal experience. Last time I checked, for my purposes, my real experience outweighs the opinions of some guys on the internet who are saying things I know to be false.

You have had other people offer the same, which is all this thread really is, opinion, yet for the boo Aikido group here, there's an expectation of anyone in favor of Aikido to prostrate themselves before some supposed truth which doesn't exist. My experience tells me otherwise and I don't require your external validation, I have no intention of sharing your viewpoint when that viewpoint is invalidated by my own experiences and understanding. Do you need to believe me or the other LEO that hopped in here? Nope. You can argue the point just like you can disbelieve a stop sign or doubt the intentions of someone yelling fire, but your doubt is not an objective truth, both our arguments are subjective to our personal experience. My lack of proof and subjective personal experience do not justify or invite a contemptuous response, that response is what is being chosen by personal ego and hubris on the part of those responding.

 

[drop bear]

I think there's a few crossover fights we could reference that show some UFC champs having issues against Boxers.


I disagree regarding my line of argument. Guys commenting outside their knowledge base to shout down and disrespect other systems is kind of everything wrong in martial arts. The ego behind the dojo wars stuff is why we don't have a more collaborative atmosphere between systems and schools and while it may appear to effectively popularize people's chosen system for a time, it hampers the growth of the community as a whole. I'd rather have a community built on mutual respect and collaboration with some personal anecdotes thrown in than what we have now where very few people encourage their peers to check their ego's instead of trying to demean or belittle what other people are doing.

You can take this conversation as a microcosm of that problem, of the detractors, you are the only one to sit down and go point by point after some coaxing to have a legitimate discussion. While you have been fairly cranky at times, you have made good points and we have had some productive discussion. Despite this, however, our ability to even have a discussion starts with one of us being willing to trust and honor the anecdotal data point that the other one has some basis of knowledge and expertise that gives their words merit. The problem with the dogpile crowd is a lack of reciprocity in that same respect. I gave you my abbreviated CV as a fighter, like you have provided yours, not to grandstand but to establish a baseline of where I was drawing that information from, in hopes of receiving the basic level of respect that I am who I claim to be. So far, while we have disagreed, its mostly been on a point to point basis, not through ad hominem attacks or disingenuous argument. You are the exception to the others, who have been far less good natured in their approach to our talk.

I get it, people see an Aikido dogpile and it looks great, so they jump in. I've ceded almost every possible point brought up about Aikido and given a pretty honest depiction from my point of view as to what it is and isn't. The only thing I have said in its favor is that the system itself, despite its flaws and problems, is valuable, applicable and worth saving. That singular statement has spawned challenges to fight, some Steven Segal commentary, a proverbial buffet of ad hominem attacks, strawman arguments, gas lighting and general fury that I won't concede Aikido as an imaginary martial art to the court of public opinion. Why exactly would I do that when I have years of experience with using it successfully? I'm not trying to get your fifty bucks or trying to teach you anything, I'm just disagreeing with you on the internet based on my personal experience. Last time I checked, for my purposes, my real experience outweighs the opinions of some guys on the internet who are saying things I know to be false.

You have had other people offer the same, which is all this thread really is, opinion, yet for the boo Aikido group here, there's an expectation of anyone in favor of Aikido to prostrate themselves before some supposed truth which doesn't exist. My experience tells me otherwise and I don't require your external validation, I have no intention of sharing your viewpoint when that viewpoint is invalidated by my own experiences and understanding. Do you need to believe me or the other LEO that hopped in here? Nope. You can argue the point just like you can disbelieve a stop sign or doubt the intentions of someone yelling fire, but your doubt is not an objective truth, both our arguments are subjective to our personal experience. My lack of proof and subjective personal experience do not justify or invite a contemptuous response, that response is what is being chosen by personal ego and hubris on the part of those respond

Martial arts relies too heavily on stories to be practical. Effectively this outlook you have puts all of martial arts in to the same category as religious experience and magic.

And this is very disappointing for martial arts as I believe it is better than that.

Look at the martial arts that are collaborative. Boxers train with kickboxers. BJJers train with wrestlers and judokas. MMAers train with everyone. And this is because they have sparring which is the best vehicle for collaboration.

The collaborative martial arts are not the anecdotal martial arts.


Unfortunately collaboration courts loss. The very best anecdotes of streetfighting badassery make absolutely no difference when you get on the mat with someone. It either works or it doesn't.

So why don't we see Aikido guys out there mixing it up in the same filth with the rest of us?

Is it because they fear loss? And is that the real ego issue?

So those that make a stand hidden behind a wall of anecdotes suffer contempt from those that are exposed to defeat so often it doesn't even matter any more.

Not because they are good or bad. Rokus was never good. He wasn't even good at MMA. But because they were not honest. They were not willing to loose, look foolish, change their bias because of weight of evidence.

They are not willing to take martial arts out of religious experience and into reality.