Aikido.. The reality?

[geezer]

...but his vilifying other systems and petulantly demanding that these other systems be justified to him, is idiotic.

Them's fightin' words! ...Especially the word vilify. I missed that word on my SAT (analogies section) nearly 60 years ago, somehow failing to recognize it's obvious shared root with the words vile, evil, and villain, and screwed up what would'a been a really good score.

...Oh, wait, we're still talking martial arts. Right. So, yeah... It's not so much that Rokas needs to figure out where he went wrong. He already believes he knows what the problem is. Simply put:

He belongs to the camp that believes that martial arts cannot be truly functional unless it's training involves regular sparring and "pressure testing" against heavily resisting opponents from diverse systems. Furthermore, to be effective, Martial arts need to freely adapt and evolve in response to this "pressure testing" to remain effective.

So he believes that competitive MA that subscribe to this model tend to be effective and traditional MA that do not train this way are likely to be less effective and subject to decline over time as they diverge from their fighting roots. Among the many TMA that fit this description are Aikido (of course), a lot of Wing Chun (including what I'm doing these days) ...and perhaps your system?

Now being a traditional martial artist, we can suppose (?) that you do not belong to this school of thought. Apparently, you find greater value in the traditional approach with it's more fixed approach coming from a long history and deeply entrenched traditions, and a more authoritarian model of instruction with the Si-Fu being the primary source of knowledge.

Personally I can value both approaches. Unfortunately, rather than making me friends, my attitude seems to get me into hot water in both camps. Not unlike politics. Sheesh!

Anyway, I do welcome your response if I've got this wrong.

 

[Flying Crane]

Them's fightin' words! ...Especially the word vilify. I missed that word on my SAT (analogies section) nearly 60 years ago, somehow failing to recognize it's obvious shared root with the words vile, evil, and villain, and screwed up what would'a been a really good score.

...Oh, wait, we're still talking martial arts. Right. So, yeah... It's not so much that Rokas needs to figure out where he went wrong. He already believes he knows what the problem is. Simply put:

He belongs to the camp that believes that martial arts cannot be truly functional unless it's training involves regular sparring and "pressure testing" against heavily resisting opponents from diverse systems. Furthermore, to be effective, Martial arts need to freely adapt and evolve in response to this "pressure testing" to remain effective.

I have no beef with his view on this. I find things to both agree with and disagree with in this point of view. The biggest issue I have is that I do not believe sparring is the pinnacle of training. It CAN be one useful tool among many. However, there are different kinds of sparring, and so it CAN also be useless. But at any rate, different strokes for different folks.

So he believes that competitive MA that subscribe to this model tend to be effective and traditional MA that do not train this way are likely to be less effective and subject to decline over time as they diverge fro their fighting roots. Among the many TMA that fit this description are Aikido (of course), a lot of Wing Chun (including what I'm doing these days) ...and perhaps your system?

We all have our opinions about other methods that we do not train. Sometimes that opinion is positive, sometimes negative, sometimes neutral, and sometimes just recognizing when we don’t know enough about it to have an opinion. I suspect Mr. Rokas lacks the knowledge of these other systems to have a meaningful opinion. But then again, opinions are much like a certain piece of the anatomy...

At any rate, when people start making a list of systems that they feel don’t work, and essentially demand justification for them, the conversation has already ended. “Prove it to me!!!” Um...nah.

Now being a traditional martial artist, we can suppose (?) that you do not belong to this school of thought. Apparently, you find greater value in the traditional approach with it's more fixed approach coming from a long history and deeply entrenched traditions, and a more authoritarian model of instruction with the Si-Fu being the primary source of knowledge.

I really do not see it that way at all. I see it as a physical education that is very effective in teaching you how to move powerfully and efficiently, and I freely devise my own drills in my own practice, while continuing to include the “traditional” elements as well (the forms) because in see utility value in them not connected to simple preservation of a tradition. My Sifu’s role was to help me understand the physical education of it all. The fact that it has a long tradition speaks to the viability of the method, not simply tradition for the sake of tradition.

While my Sifu is very strict in his attention to the details, it is all in the spirit of maximizing that physical understanding. It isn’t dogmatic in how one applies it, it does not put anything off limits. Instead, it gives one a vision of what is possible with that methodology. In my opinion, it opens doors to everything, more than it defines restrictive parameters. Sifu has never lorded over us nor demanded utter obedience. He only ever did his best to help us understand how it works, which includes precise and demanding attention to details. Ultimately, what we do with it is up to us.

Personally I can value both approaches. Unfortunately, rather than making me friends, my attitude seems to get me into hot water in both camps. Not unlike politics. Sheesh!

Anyway, I do welcome your response if I've got this wrong.

 

[Hanzou]

Kind of bizarre to say that Rokas is somehow misguided in his actions and views when you have a martial art like Aikido advertising that it will teach you to overcome a bigger/stronger adversary with minimal effort, and/or saying that you will learn how to defeat multiple attackers. You can't blame the student for becoming disillusioned when that is the supposed end result, and you realize it is completely make believe.

 

[drop bear]

Sure, he had experience in something [aikido, apparently] but then he transforms it into “wing Chun and Krav Maga are no good, you need to prove otherwise to me.”

nobody needs to prove anything to him. If he had a negative experience with aikido, then he ought to talk about that and figure out where he went wrong or where his training was lacking or where he failed to step up in the training, or that he needs to recognize that aikido was a bad choice for him and he just doesn’t connect with the methodology properly and he ought to do something else instead.

but his vilifying other systems and petulantly demanding that these other systems be justified to him, is idiotic.

This I think is wrong and confuses a practical thing with a belief system.

You should be making your claims and then be backing them up.

Not looking stink eye at people who have the temerity to ask these questions.

 

[drop bear]

Well, you have effectively said that words don't mean anything if they can be interpreted differently by different people.

Yeah. And those words are used to make a statement that you can readily back out of at any time.

Did I say combat? No I meant combat. You don't understand the difference.

You probably never grew up on yes minister.

But a really well written political satire that hits a lot of truth boxes.

And I will throw this one in as well because we have run very close to this line a few times.

 

[geezer]

This I think is wrong and confuses a practical thing with a belief system.
You should be making your claims and then be backing them up. Not looking stink eye at people who have the temerity to ask these questions.

Temerity!?! Are you serious??? ...How did you guys get ahold of my old SATs? Musta been the internet, I'm guessin'. That's another one of them words I missed. Rub my face in it why don't ya? I mean, the temerity of it!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The issue of Aikido is still the training method.

Do Aikido guys train how to

1. apply a wrist lock?
2. counter a wrist lock?
3. counter the counter of a wrist lock?

I'm sure they do 1, but not sure if they do 2, and 3.

If we apply this requirement on other MA systems, we may find some MA systems are also lacking this kind of training.

The schools I've been to did do all 3, but not quite as robustly as you may be picturing (at least not while I was there). It was more in the realm of flow drills than active resistance. But at least they were working on recognizing counters and how to move past them.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sure, he had experience in something [aikido, apparently] but then he transforms it into “wing Chun and Krav Maga are no good, you need to prove otherwise to me.”

This is why I don't like the sales pitch that martial arts makes you a better person. He threw all of that out when he felt that he was mislead and then made the assumption that everyone else trains like he did and are also getting fooled. He didn't even understand that it was. "Nah dude, it's just you " lol

If he had a negative experience with aikido, then he ought to talk about that and figure out where he went wrong or where his training was lacking or where he failed to step up in the training, or that he needs to recognize that aikido was a bad choice for him and he just doesn’t connect with the methodology properly and he ought to do something else instead.

First thing he should have done was to question the person who taught him. Did that person mislead him. If not, then the second thing he needs to do is examine his own training and his ego. From my personal experience, sometimes people can get caught up in the "power of being a teacher." They let that stuff go to their heads and they begin to think that they are bigger than what they really are. And that's how they get into that mindset that you have to answer to them and validate your training to them as if they had any say so in the first place.

but his vilifying other systems and petulantly demanding that these other systems be justified to him, is idiotic.

Yep it is. Which is why he probably wasn't able to be any good. That idea that people who know must come to him vs taking a real Martial Arts Journey by seeking others for a better understanding. He could have set up a friendly sparring match against a Wing Chun practitioner then he would know without doubt. lol.

 

[jobo]

Subjectivity is not objectivity. Shiny and touristy vs a stable of elite guys. Means while it can be perceived as a mcdojo it really isn't.

PRO Fighters at TMT Archives - Tiger Muay Thai & MMA Training Camp, Phuket, Thailand

come on mate try and follow

your quite correct that subjectivity is not objectivity, but all objectivity is subjective, unless you get a computer or an alien to do it for you

 

[Martial D]

come on mate try and follow

your quite correct that subjectivity is not objectivity, but all objectivity is subjective, unless you get a computer or an alien to do it for you

Yes. And all dry things are wet, all happy people are sad, down is up and dogs are cats.

 

[jobo]

Yes. And all dry things are wet, all happy people are sad, down is up and dogs are cats.

im disappointed to see you have gone back on your pledge to ignore me, its less im subject to you, more that you have no will power

 

[Shatteredzen]

This is why I don't like the sales pitch that martial arts makes you a better person. He threw all of that out when he felt that he was mislead and then made the assumption that everyone else trains like he did and are also getting fooled. He didn't even understand that it was. "Nah dude, it's just you " lol

First thing he should have done was to question the person who taught him. Did that person mislead him. If not, then the second thing he needs to do is examine his own training and his ego. From my personal experience, sometimes people can get caught up in the "power of being a teacher." They let that stuff go to their heads and they begin to think that they are bigger than what they really are. And that's how they get into that mindset that you have to answer to them and validate your training to them as if they had any say so in the first place.

Yep it is. Which is why he probably wasn't able to be any good. That idea that people who know must come to him vs taking a real Martial Arts Journey by seeking others for a better understanding. He could have set up a friendly sparring match against a Wing Chun practitioner then he would know without doubt. lol.

If he had taken the year sabbatical to learn what he has and then attempted to apply his Aikido he likely would have done much better. For all his disappointment in the system, he never really takes personal responsibility for opening a dojo and gathering a following before he knew what he was doing. Seeing him healthy in his newer videos versus the emaciated look he has in his earlier videos which I guess he said was a lack of exercise and dieting on his part, its also easy to see more reasons he didn't have more personal successes with his training. I'm not sure what claims were made to him by his teacher, I have also never been the type of martial arts student who sees a sales pitch and joins a dojo. I learned very quickly following a sour experience with one of my first schools to seek out training based on the experience of the instructor.

I think the easiest thing we can agree on are what things need to change in the traditional martial arts community to weed out the bad techniques and the bullshido. I can't think of a single martial art that wouldn't benefit greatly from the introduction of modern training, resistance based sparring and willingness to pressure test and modify techniques as needed. I have noticed many of the same complaints that Aikido gets routinely showing up in a variety of styles and schools, these usually tend to be reflections of the quality of the instructor. Poor instruction ends up creating whole lineages of people who spread more bad martial arts. This isn't a new phenomena, its been a huge problem since the Karate boom, maybe the way we get rid of it is through advocating for these training methods as a community, because the lack thereof is usually a red flag.

For Aikido specifically, after some thought over the weekend, I think we DO need a general call for accountability across the entire system. If Wing Chun has 5-20% of schools teaching a practical form of Wing Chun, I would hesitate to give Aikido a measurable percentage since I can only think of two you tubers I would say who show a real knowledge of the system in any applicable way (Chris Hein and Aikidoflow). I agree with Chris Hein's assessment that Aikido has not done the work to bring itself as a system into the modern, post BJJ/MMA world. I also agree that unless it can be demonstrated to work against resistance, Aikido should be advertised as personal development not self defense or what have you, but I would say I feel this way about anyone running a martial arts school. While I don't agree with the general Joe Rogan crowd or his argument against Aikido, I will say that the Aikido community itself is to blame for the perception that has fueled this sentiment and kept it going. When I did an honest inventory of my training versus what the average student would get going to their strip mall school down the street, I find myself incredibly lucky to have found Aikido the way that I did and that's a shame.

So while I don't have an altered opinion about the merit of Aikido in general or its applicability and usefulness as a martial art, I can agree that the system itself is in crisis from a combination of factors but certainly from years of bad behavior and false representation on a part of the people who were forming and running the schools. I think our Wing Chun practitioners might agree that while they have been vindicated or partially vindicated by Qi La La and even in part by Rokas's video, the low percentage of good schools might call for a general housecleaning within the community to weed out the bad actors. Perhaps the current state of Aikido is a cautionary tale of what happens when you don't hold the community accountable.

On a positive note, I don't see this being more than a temporary issue, I think there is enough of what Chris Hein refers to as "low hanging fruit" within the system that it can be modernized and developed into something that is more pragmatic once enough people within the community decide to do the work. To be honest, this makes me want to entertain the thought of opening a school even more at least part time, as someone who has enjoyed and been enriched by their experience with the system, I'd like to help with the repairs.

 

[Martial D]

im disappointed to see you have gone back on your pledge to ignore me, its less im subject to you, more that you have no will power

Sometimes you are too ridiculous to ignore, but I'm doing my best.

 

[jobo]

Sometimes you are too ridiculous to ignore, but I'm doing my best.

please try a bit harder,

 

[Steve]

If he had taken the year sabbatical to learn what he has and then attempted to apply his Aikido he likely would have done much better. For all his disappointment in the system, he never really takes personal responsibility for opening a dojo and gathering a following before he knew what he was doing. Seeing him healthy in his newer videos versus the emaciated look he has in his earlier videos which I guess he said was a lack of exercise and dieting on his part, its also easy to see more reasons he didn't have more personal successes with his training. I'm not sure what claims were made to him by his teacher, I have also never been the type of martial arts student who sees a sales pitch and joins a dojo. I learned very quickly following a sour experience with one of my first schools to seek out training based on the experience of the instructor.

I think the easiest thing we can agree on are what things need to change in the traditional martial arts community to weed out the bad techniques and the bullshido. I can't think of a single martial art that wouldn't benefit greatly from the introduction of modern training, resistance based sparring and willingness to pressure test and modify techniques as needed. I have noticed many of the same complaints that Aikido gets routinely showing up in a variety of styles and schools, these usually tend to be reflections of the quality of the instructor. Poor instruction ends up creating whole lineages of people who spread more bad martial arts. This isn't a new phenomena, its been a huge problem since the Karate boom, maybe the way we get rid of it is through advocating for these training methods as a community, because the lack thereof is usually a red flag.

For Aikido specifically, after some thought over the weekend, I think we DO need a general call for accountability across the entire system. If Wing Chun has 5-20% of schools teaching a practical form of Wing Chun, I would hesitate to give Aikido a measurable percentage since I can only think of two you tubers I would say who show a real knowledge of the system in any applicable way (Chris Hein and Aikidoflow). I agree with Chris Hein's assessment that Aikido has not done the work to bring itself as a system into the modern, post BJJ/MMA world. I also agree that unless it can be demonstrated to work against resistance, Aikido should be advertised as personal development not self defense or what have you, but I would say I feel this way about anyone running a martial arts school. While I don't agree with the general Joe Rogan crowd or his argument against Aikido, I will say that the Aikido community itself is to blame for the perception that has fueled this sentiment and kept it going. When I did an honest inventory of my training versus what the average student would get going to their strip mall school down the street, I find myself incredibly lucky to have found Aikido the way that I did and that's a shame.

So while I don't have an altered opinion about the merit of Aikido in general or its applicability and usefulness as a martial art, I can agree that the system itself is in crisis from a combination of factors but certainly from years of bad behavior and false representation on a part of the people who were forming and running the schools. I think our Wing Chun practitioners might agree that while they have been vindicated or partially vindicated by Qi La La and even in part by Rokas's video, the low percentage of good schools might call for a general housecleaning within the community to weed out the bad actors. Perhaps the current state of Aikido is a cautionary tale of what happens when you don't hold the community accountable.

On a positive note, I don't see this being more than a temporary issue, I think there is enough of what Chris Hein refers to as "low hanging fruit" within the system that it can be modernized and developed into something that is more pragmatic once enough people within the community decide to do the work. To be honest, this makes me want to entertain the thought of opening a school even more at least part time, as someone who has enjoyed and been enriched by their experience with the system, I'd like to help with the repairs.

I think Aikido gets it worse than most, because of all the martial arts systems, it is the one that purports to teach effective self defense skills in spite of specifically not teaching fighting skills. It's self defense for pacifists. At least that's the common marketing.

 

[Hanzou]

I think Aikido gets it worse than most, because of all the martial arts systems, it is the one that purports to teach effective self defense skills in spite of specifically not teaching fighting skills. It's self defense for pacifists. At least that's the common marketing.

Well that, and the no-touch ki stuff by Ueshiba and modern practitioners does it no favors.

 

[Shatteredzen]

Well that, and the no-touch ki stuff by Ueshiba and modern practitioners does it no favors.

I thought it was all wrist locks? Now its no touch stuff taught by the founder? Google harder before you comment, at least have a frame of reference.

 

[Hanzou]

I thought it was all wrist locks? Now its no touch stuff taught by the founder? Google harder before you comment, at least have a frame of reference.

Okay.

 

[jobo]

Okay.

that's just like a magician assistant, they dont really get sawn in half either, but showbiz

 

[Shatteredzen]

Okay.

Some old guy in a grainy video for 18 seconds, even the old black and white footage of Ueshiba is clearer than this. Do you have anything connecting this to Aikido or suggesting that this "no touch" stuff is in a syllabus anywhere?