Aikido.. The reality?

[Tony Dismukes]

Not only money. The reputation can cause that to happen too.

In one Chinese wrestling tournament, the heavy weight champ had to fight the middle weight champ to win the grand champ. The middle weight champ defeated the heavy weight champ and hurt the heavy weight champ's knee badly in that match.

Yeah, that's probably the reason that the Dog Brothers don't make their gatherings into tournaments or award championships. People just show up and pick up as many matches as they want with whoever is willing. "Hey, I want to try my staff work against someone using double sticks. Anyone up for that?" "Sure, sounds like fun. Let's go."

 

[wab25]

Those that say 'if only I could bite and eye gouge things would be different' are kidding themselves.

A good eye poke, seems to be very effective, if you can get it in. These are professional MMA fighters being eye poked... some of these would be game changers if the ref did not stop the fight for the poke.

 

[wab25]

Speaking as a BJJ practitioner, there is certainly potential validity in most of the Aikido techniques I've seen. I've even been caught by a couple of them on occasion. There's also value in the underlying principles.

That said, as an outsider looking in on Aikido practice there are some significant issues I see.

First, most of the techniques in the Aikido syllabus are highly situational. The right circumstances to apply them don't come up that often, especially against skilled fighters. From my outsider's perspective, it appears that a large percentage of Aikido practitioners don't understand those situational limitations, don't train with those situations in mind (except in a highly artificial way which doesn't translate well to actual application), and don't have the skill set to cover the majority of more likely combative situations (unless they have crossed trained in other arts).

Second, it seems that most Aikido schools I've seen have fallen into what I'll call the "Aiki trap."

For my purposes I'll define Aiki as that moment in a fight where everything comes together perfectly, you blend with your opponent's energy and timing so that your technique feels effortless - it really seems like your opponent just threw themself for you. Unfortunately in real life, you don't get to the point of being able to do this without a whole lot of non-Aiki rough and tumble experience. (You're also more likely to find those moments against opponents who are much less skilled.) Even a really skilled fighter who frequently manages to achieve Aiki moments in a fight can't get them all the time, or even most of the time.

The "Aiki trap" comes when practitioners of an art (and it doesn't have to be Aikido, I've encountered this in other arts), want to bypass the whole process of going through years of rough and tumble fighting or sparring in order to just occasionally be able to get those magical feeling Aiki moments. Instead, they just practice with having their training partners feed them highly stylized, overcommitted, unrealistic attacks that are comparatively easy to blend with and never have those training partners offer any realistic effort to defeat their techniques. It's a shortcut that gives the illusion of being able to reliably demonstrate Aiki, but tends to fall apart under real world pressure.

I have a different take on the "Aiki trap" as you call it. My take on the Aiki Trap, is thinking that Aikido is about the techniques. Aikido is about studying the things that go into that Aiki Moment and how to maintain the Aiki Moment. The idea being that if you study those things, you should be able to find more Aiki Moments in a fight, than if you had not studied how the Aiki Moment works. The techniques found in Aikido are great for studying and learning how to achieve that Aiki Moment.

If you have another background, where you have experience in resistance sparring / rolling / fighting... then the study of Aikido will improve your ability to find and capitalize on the available Aiki Moments in the fight. Those Aiki Moments will most likely not look like Aikido... but they will feel like Aikido... the effortless magic of the perfect blend.

The thing to remember about Aikido, is that you have to first survive long enough to be functional when the Aiki Moment arrives in the fight. This will not be easy to do, if you have only ever practiced the Aikido choreography. Two ways to fix this... first, start with some other training first, to learn how to fight, then supplement it with Aikido. Second, train Aikido and once you get down the choreography, fight and learn how to use it. This second option will not be nearly as efficient as the first and will be frustrating... mainly because you don't know how to fight or even know what to expect... let alone try to apply principles learned through an exercise on a resisting opponent.

 

[JowGaWolf]

. Unfortunately in real life, you don't get to the point of being able to do this without a whole lot of non-Aiki rough and tumble experience. (You're also more likely to find those moments against opponents who are much less skilled.) Even a really skilled fighter who frequently manages to achieve Aiki moments in a fight can't get them all the time, or even most of the time.

I agree. I think the rough and tumble experience is necessary for development. That's when you learn how to read body movement, shift weight, see intentions, escape, etc. The more experience that one gains with the rough stuff, the easier it will be for them to move smoothly when confronted. But again this is only if the person you are training with isn't so advance that it provides no opportunity to learn.

More than 15 years of Aikido training? Well how much of that time was spent trying to do Aikido in the "rough and tumble environment." With my own training. I rather traing kung fu. then spar against non- Jow Ga people. If possible non-TMA people.

I replied before reading ALL of your comment. Sort of the thoughts that came to mine while reading then discovered your next paragraph said the same thing I'm saying lol. I need to learn to READ THE WHOLE THING lol

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"Aiki trap"

It may be similar to

- You move out of your opponent's attacking path,
- lead your opponent into the emptiness,
- you then take advantage on it.

If this is similar to "Aiki trap", then it's general strategy used in all MA systems.

 

[JowGaWolf]

some of these would be game changers if the ref did not stop the fight for the poke.

There would probably be a lot of one eyed fighters too

 

[drop bear]

A good eye poke, seems to be very effective, if you can get it in. These are professional MMA fighters being eye poked... some of these would be game changers if the ref did not stop the fight for the poke.

Yeah. But that is other MMAers doing it.

I think if average Joe jumped in there armed with eye pokes he would have a bad day.

 

[wab25]

It may be similar to

- You move out of your opponent's attacking path,
- lead your opponent into the emptiness,
- you then take advantage on it.

If this is similar to "Aiki trap", then it's general strategy used in all MA systems.

The "Aiki Trap" is not a general strategy or a thing used in MA. It is a term that Tony came up with to describe what happens to people who train Aikido as their only art and never venture out of the dojo to test it against anything other than fully compliant dance partners who know when to fall. They get a false sense that they now understand physical combat and that when the fight happens, they will use the same choreography that they have been practicing and that somehow it will work.

Most traditional arts and arts that have forms or kata, have their own version of this trap. If all you ever do is the choreographed routines, with compliant partners, and you then think you are capable of using that choreography to win a fight... you have been caught in the trap.

 

[wab25]

Yeah. But that is other MMAers doing it.

Are MMA eye pokes more effective than karate eye pokes?

Really, these cases are just bad luck... no one was attempting to poke the eye, they just reacted when attacked and a finger ended up in an eye.

I do agree that if you are betting everything on making your eye poke work and thats all you have... you may have a hard day of it. It's like the "Aiki Moment" in a fight... you have to survive long enough, and be functional enough, when the eye poke moment in the fight arrives. If you survived long enough, sure it can be effective... but you have to get there first.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Yeah. But that is other MMAers doing it.

I think if average Joe jumped in there armed with eye pokes he would have a bad day.

Nothing pisses me off more than an opponent that intentionally uses dirty tricks to gain an advantage. That door can swing both ways buddy.

Are MMA eye pokes more effective than karate eye pokes?

Really, these cases are just bad luck... no one was attempting to poke the eye, they just reacted when attacked and a finger ended up in an eye.

I do agree that if you are betting everything on making your eye poke work and thats all you have... you may have a hard day of it. It's like the "Aiki Moment" in a fight... you have to survive long enough, and be functional enough, when the eye poke moment in the fight arrives. If you survived long enough, sure it can be effective... but you have to get there first.

If it was accidental contact, it happens. Let's move on. If there is a history of those types of shenanigans or if it is clear that dirty tricks are part of your opponents arsenal then someone has to learn the hard way not to poke the bear because this bear pokes back.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It is a term that Tony came up with to describe what happens to people who train Aikido as their only art and never venture out of the dojo to test it against anything other than fully compliant dance partners who know when to fall.

Not just Aikido, although that tends to be a prime example. I encountered a lot of it during my time training in the Bujinkan and I've seen the same sort of process play out with practitioners of other arts.

I think it can be the start of the path that leads to nonsense like no-contact throws and knockouts. You can get training partners and demo dummies who get the pattern of going along with the technique so mentally ingrained that they start throwing themselves without the other person having to really do anything. Add a bit of groupthink and mystical mindset and you can end up with a teacher and students who actually believe that he can throw them without touching them.

 

[Martial D]

A good eye poke, seems to be very effective, if you can get it in. These are professional MMA fighters being eye poked... some of these would be game changers if the ref did not stop the fight for the poke.

Yes, I'm not saying eye pokes don't work. Just that, if a guy is out striking you with fists it's likely if you can both poke eyes he will also out poke you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I went spent a few hours on you tube trying to find old sparring videos of Aikido. This was done with my understanding that Fighting is Abrasive. Which basically means that it's rough and it that it doesn't flow smooth like what we often see in Aikido or Tai Chi. When these martial arts are practice they often look as if they are flowing and easy. I think this training concept is similar to Tai Chi /Tajiquan. The free flowing and easy look seems to be how you learn to relax and to flow. It is not fighting, and it's not how the fighting is supposed to look. I also think this is where people screw up with the systems and get it wrong.

So since I don't actually know anything about Aikido, I decided to use my very limited Tajiquan knowledge to make assumption and guesses, and to find some old footage of Aikido Sparring.

Here's the first first one. I found. To me this looks like Aikido concepts applied and it looks abrasive. It doesn't flow the same way that we see it in a demo. I personally think the "Flow" part is something that you have to experienced. I know that's the case with Muay thai. To the outside it may look like a simple clinch but to the person in the clinch it could feel like your balance is easily being robbed from you before the throw occurs.
This is what I expect to see in a fight on the street (the struggle)

In contrast. We can see that he's trying "flow" similar to what they do in training and demos (not sparring). You can also see that he's uncomfortable with punches coming towards him. It's clear that he doesn't quite know how to handle them. From a function perspective it would make sense that Aikido would have some kind of striking or understanding of "how to enter into grappling"

Here's another example. Not the best, but he's got one arm. What you do see here is punching as a way to enter into grappling. BJJ does it, Muay Thai does it. Sanda does it. So I'm just following some of the things we already know.

2nd Video Same guy,



Thoughts?

There's a definite disconnect between what the "classical" training looks like (this, in my experience is true in all the aiki arts I've ever seen, even on video) and how they'd have to be used against anyone with any skill. This is because the classical training is emphasizing specific principles. The attacks used are set up to allow the drills to focus on these principles. Where those techniques are used in sparring against anyone with skill (including within the same style), they don't look the same because the attack alters what is needed. How much different they look will depend upon the "attacker".

So, let's take that thought to the second video. As you said, he looks like he's trying to do demonstration/drill Aikido. What I see is someone trying to force Aikido-like movement where it doesn't belong, which is actually counter to the principles of Aikido. I've seen this same issue with some of the "NGA sparring" videos I've found online. They're not really sparring with NGA - they're trying to force classical movements (and the training form of the technique) in application.

I don't blame the students for this. This is a common flaw (in my opinion) in aiki systems. Where folks use their skill in resistive training (as in Tomiki Aikido), you don't see the same issue. Against each other, they move more like Judoka, because that approach is more conducive to dealing with a skilled grappler.

One thing I will note that shouldn't be surprising to folks who've trained a while in Aikido: Aikidoka are better at grappling defense (keep good structure and balance, and don't over-resist) than grappling attack. Given that Aikido (all of the versions I've seen except Tomiki) put so much emphasis on accepting the attack and working with it, it makes sense they aren't great at bringing the attack.

 

[drop bear]

The issue with training aiki on its own is there is nobody to give you a reason to apply it. Because they are all trying to use the opponent's energy.

Eg. Izzy vs yoel Romero.

Two dedicated counter fighters who basically stood there for three rounds waiting for the other guy to do something.

So it becomes the worst place to learn how to use someone else's force.

 

[wab25]

The issue with training aiki on its own is there is nobody to give you a reason to apply it. Because they are all trying to use the opponent's energy.

Eg. Izzy vs yoel Romero.

Two dedicated counter fighters who basically stood there for three rounds waiting for the other guy to do something.

So it becomes the worst place to learn how to use someone else's force.

We get it. Aikido is the worst possible martial art to study and should be obliterated and removed from history...

The whole point of the choreography in Aikido, is to give that force to the guy training, in a predictable manner, so that he can study dealing with that force. It is no different than uchikomi's in Judo. Those are choreographed too... as are guard passing drills in bjj and take down practice in MMA. There is a place for choreography and a place for resistance sparring.

 

[drop bear]

We get it. Aikido is the worst possible martial art to study and should be obliterated and removed from history...

The whole point of the choreography in Aikido, is to give that force to the guy training, in a predictable manner, so that he can study dealing with that force. It is no different than uchikomi's in Judo. Those are choreographed too... as are guard passing drills in bjj and take down practice in MMA. There is a place for choreography and a place for resistance sparring.

Exept if both people are trying to use the others persons force all the time. You don't have resistance sparring. You have the izzy Romero fight.

Which then removes the grounding required to understand drills.

Which then removes the understanding of how to use someone's force.

Gradings of course are always notorious for this because who is going to risk your mates black belt just so you can be a duche.

But this for example has very little in the way of borrowed force.

 

[wab25]

Exept if both people are trying to use the others persons force all the time. You don't have resistance sparring. You have the izzy Romero fight.

Which then removes the grounding required to understand drills.

Which then removes the understanding of how to use someone's force.

Why is it okay for BJJ and MMA to have choreographed drills that they can use to ramp up the resistance with, until they are rolling / sparring / fighting... but Aikido is not allowed that same ramp? Just because you found some youtube video or tried a few dojos... does not mean that every Aikido dojo sticks strictly to the choreography. There are dojos that do not stick to the choreography and do get to rolling / sparring / heavy resistance... with other arts. I will grant you, that it is harder to find Aikido dojos like this, but they do exist. The lack of resistance training is a problem with the school / organization / instructor... not a problem with the art itself.

 

[drop bear]

Why is it okay for BJJ and MMA to have choreographed drills that they can use to ramp up the resistance with, until they are rolling / sparring / fighting... but Aikido is not allowed that same ramp? Just because you found some youtube video or tried a few dojos... does not mean that every Aikido dojo sticks strictly to the choreography. There are dojos that do not stick to the choreography and do get to rolling / sparring / heavy resistance... with other arts. I will grant you, that it is harder to find Aikido dojos like this, but they do exist. The lack of resistance training is a problem with the school / organization / instructor... not a problem with the art itself.

You mention this ramp. But then say that for a lot of schools there is no ramp. Just the choreography ending in more choreography.

If it is most schools. Then it is a problem with the art. The other's are outliers. And the art makes it very difficult for those outliers to train realistically.

Here is an example of people who can use each other's force against them.

Tomiki are about the only guys who train live.

 

[wab25]

And the art makes it very difficult for those outliers to train realistically.

This would be the definition of an assumption.

 

[drop bear]

This would be the definition of an assumption.

Not really.

If for example I wanted to be a professional aikido fighting athlete. How would I go about that?