Aikido has no reason to prove itself!

[Urban Trekker]

I get it. I don't think it's realistic, and I'm not sure it would be all that helpful for many reasons. For one, the type of accreditation you're referring to is academic. In other words, it's governance over the sharing of academic expertise. Let's just consider academic accreditation:

* Accreditation for a college or university is voluntary.
* The accrediting body is non-governmental and is not itself accountable to any standard. This means...
* Each accrediting body sets its own standards for accreditation (i.e., it is entirely subjective), and
* there are many accrediting bodies, some more prestigious and reliable than others.

Not entirely. Regional accrediting bodies are accountable to the Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA). So while they each have some autonomy, they're still regulated.

Here's another idea, and this is possibly even better: you could have a completely independent organization that doesn't register any schools or associations, but recognizes certain martial arts for their effectiveness. An NRA for martial arts, if you will.

 

[Steve]

Not entirely. Regional accrediting bodies are accountable to the Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA). So while they each have some autonomy, they're still regulated.

Here's another idea, and this is possibly even better: you could have a completely independent organization that doesn't register any schools or associations, but recognizes certain martial arts for their effectiveness. An NRA for martial arts, if you will.

NRA? Come on, man. We don't want or need that. My opinion only, but your idea is going from bad to worse. And believe me, I am sympathetic. Don't get me wrong. I give zero snots whether folks want to play with crystals, use goop brand yoni eggs, or train in a martial art for emotional and spiritual enlightenment. Knock yourself out.

But the idea of inexperienced, ill prepared people selling self defense snake oil is a big problem for me. I'd love to see some imposed standards. But I don't see a constructive way to do that. And the NRA, which is primarily a lobbying organization working for gun manufacturers, is not analogous.

 

[Dirty Dog]

NRA? Come on, man. We don't want or need that. My opinion only, but your idea is going from bad to worse. And believe me, I am sympathetic. Don't get me wrong. I give zero snots whether folks want to play with crystals, use goop brand yoni eggs, or train in a martial art for emotional and spiritual enlightenment. Knock yourself out.

But the idea of inexperienced, ill prepared people selling self defense snake oil is a big problem for me. I'd love to see some imposed standards. But I don't see a constructive way to do that. And the NRA, which is primarily a lobbying organization working for gun manufacturers, is not analogous.

They're not even... they bring in some $400,000,000 per year. In 2020, their spending on politics, including donations and lobbying, was less than $800,000.
The NRA is basically a tool for generating revenue for the NRA.

 

[Steve]

They're not even... they bring in some $400,000,000 per year. In 2020, their spending on politics, including donations and lobbying, was less than $800,000.
The NRA is basically a tool for generating revenue for the NRA.

Both, maybe. They still send mail for my deceased brother to my address. I have asked them not to, but can't get him off their mailing list. The rhetoric they send in their "membership" letters is truly terrifying. Both because of the actual words, and also that so many people believe it.

 

[drop bear]

Not entirely. Regional accrediting bodies are accountable to the Council for Higher Education Accreditation (CHEA). So while they each have some autonomy, they're still regulated.

Here's another idea, and this is possibly even better: you could have a completely independent organization that doesn't register any schools or associations, but recognizes certain martial arts for their effectiveness. An NRA for martial arts, if you will.

Or just apply scientific method.

We could do that.

And the premis of this thread suggests that Aikido should prevent this process.

Because we can't really make good observations or create decent experiments.

And of course when we look at people claiming straight up magical powers. It is these experiments that separate claims from reality.

 

[drop bear]

NRA? Come on, man. We don't want or need that. My opinion only, but your idea is going from bad to worse. And believe me, I am sympathetic. Don't get me wrong. I give zero snots whether folks want to play with crystals, use goop brand yoni eggs, or train in a martial art for emotional and spiritual enlightenment. Knock yourself out.

But the idea of inexperienced, ill prepared people selling self defense snake oil is a big problem for me. I'd love to see some imposed standards. But I don't see a constructive way to do that. And the NRA, which is primarily a lobbying organization working for gun manufacturers, is not analogous.

Which by the way is the same issue with the bjj black belt system for MMAers who can grapple kill your average BJJ black. But haven't attended enough seminars.

 

[Steve]

Or just apply scientific method.

We could do that.

And the premis of this thread suggests that Aikido should prevent this process.

Because we can't really make good observations or create decent experiments.

And of course when we look at people claiming straight up magical powers. It is these experiments that separate claims from reality.

 

[drop bear]

Nice.

 

[isshinryuronin]

BJJ has evolved tremendously in recent years

innovations can come from any practitioner

tested under pressure by the community as a whole.

All these things are true, for BJJ and application to MMA. Not so much for TMA which have not evolved within a televised sport realm and have a 300 year history in the case of karate (which is a blend of other styles even older,) masters refining and passing down fighting techniques which were pressure tested outside of sports.

BJJ (and MMA) are a different kind of animal than TMA in a number of ways, many of which have been well discussed in this forum, so comparisons are tricky.

Unfortunately, some "experts" are makings changes to their style in a sterile environment to everyday people not looking to be elite athletic competitors. These teachers and students, not having learned their art properly, don't know how to make these "new techniques" actually work within the structure of their system since they don't really understand it. Many times these "new" techniques are developed out of ignorance, misinterpreting established technique, or marketing. They do not have the chance to be pressure tested by the community during their development. Like peer recognition, it's tougher in the huge, fragmented community of TMA than the still small, closer knit, BJJ one.

Being fairly new in comparison to other MA, as you noted, there is room for more innovation in BJJ/MMA. Perhaps in another hundred years, if still around and a solid body of technique has been well established, opportunities for true innovation will become rarer. And its likely, then, self-styled BJJ experts will be hawking their own brand of degraded art to the masses as its principles become forgotten, mutated, or over commercialized. Time will tell.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Basically, an accrediting body, right?

I agree, but I don't ever see this happening. Not only will ineffective martial art schools not seek accreditation, but many schools that teach martial arts that are effective probably won't seek it either (due to *insert philosophical babble here*), which would effectively make the ineffective martial arts indistinguishable.

Yep and it can be made of the "Top" martial artists in the field (they will have their own type of test to qualify for that position). Like they would need to have strong analytical skills among some other things. Those who would be grading would come from different back grounds. So if I'm testing, I would be graded by 3 Graders from the heads of Jow Ga. 1 grader from my opponents system and 1 graders from 10 other systems. I can only be Gain a Mastery Title for what I train. The other graders cannot give me one or affect the one I'm seeking.

I'll get a detail grading on Jow Ga and a comparative grading from the other systems. This grading would be done independently. The reason I want the other systems involved so that they can see with their own eyes the function of an system. This way they can "write articles" that are more accurate than the noise that we often hear and debate. The question should never be about "who is better" It should be questions like: Was the person functional with the techniques of the system? Was the person able to meet the challenges of the other system? It shouldn't be about win or lose.

The comparative grading of from the other systems is what they see and think about your abilities and how you represented your system. It is used for Personal Growth and not marketing or business purposes. It's not for bragging rights. For example, I'm getting graded and a BJJ grader sees that I'm having trouble dealing with BJJ. From there the BJJ gives me recommendations of what I can work on. or what I did really well with in terms of going against BJJ. If I didn't do well with grappling from the BJJ system then the BJJ grader can say something like "think about how you move your feet an dhow your BJJ took advantages of certain things I was doing.." They won't give answers or criticize the system. They will just offer a perspective of things that I may have missed during testing. Maybe I played too much of a defensive role which resulted in more stalemates or less opportunity. Then offer general things that may help. They should not make recommendations like (take BJJ). The students there are there to represent their system.

Part of representing your system includes showing skill set ability against other systems. in Front of other systems. Having another system Vouche of your skill sets is valuable. The graders become a Trusted Source. This would kill most of the debate. All testing and results should be recorded.and saved as history

The accreditation system should then offer support to the schools and associations that are head by the accredited master. This will help the school to thrive even if its a small school. When the master retires then one of his students must seek accreditation in order to continue to receive support.

The reason why I don't think it should be about winning is because it creates a hostile environment. Here's an example: If a BJJ can use 100% of BJJ against me, then I should be able to use 100% of Jow against BJJ, but that would include Jow Ga weapons.. A Master has to be accredited on all that she / he trains and teaches. But if you make it about functionality, then that would include functionality against trained and untrained. Attackers are dangerous too. Just because a boxer isn't trained in kicking doesn't mean he can't punch your lights out.

Just because BJJ is untrained in the staff, doesn't mean that he cannot take the staff away from you and beat you with your own staff. By not making it about winning all participants can then focus on function.

If you lose a fight, you can still be considered functional with your system if you used the techniques you trained, so long as your lose was not great.

 

[BrendanF]

Yep and it can be made of the "Top" martial artists in the field (they will have their own type of test to qualify for that position). Like they would need to have strong analytical skills among some other things. Those who would be grading would come from different back grounds. So if I'm testing, I would be graded by 3 Graders from the heads of Jow Ga. 1 grader from my opponents system and 1 graders from 10 other systems. I can only be Gain a Mastery Title for what I train. The other graders cannot give me one or affect the one I'm seeking.

I'll get a detail grading on Jow Ga and a comparative grading from the other systems. This grading would be done independently. The reason I want the other systems involved so that they can see with their own eyes the function of an system. This way they can "write articles" that are more accurate than the noise that we often hear and debate. The question should never be about "who is better" It should be questions like: Was the person functional with the techniques of the system? Was the person able to meet the challenges of the other system? It shouldn't be about win or lose.

The comparative grading of from the other systems is what they see and think about your abilities and how you represented your system. It is used for Personal Growth and not marketing or business purposes. It's not for bragging rights. For example, I'm getting graded and a BJJ grader sees that I'm having trouble dealing with BJJ. From there the BJJ gives me recommendations of what I can work on. or what I did really well with in terms of going against BJJ. If I didn't do well with grappling from the BJJ system then the BJJ grader can say something like "think about how you move your feet an dhow your BJJ took advantages of certain things I was doing.." They won't give answers or criticize the system. They will just offer a perspective of things that I may have missed during testing. Maybe I played too much of a defensive role which resulted in more stalemates or less opportunity. Then offer general things that may help. They should not make recommendations like (take BJJ). The students there are there to represent their system.

Part of representing your system includes showing skill set ability against other systems. in Front of other systems. Having another system Vouche of your skill sets is valuable. The graders become a Trusted Source. This would kill most of the debate. All testing and results should be recorded.and saved as history

The accreditation system should then offer support to the schools and associations that are head by the accredited master. This will help the school to thrive even if its a small school. When the master retires then one of his students must seek accreditation in order to continue to receive support.

The reason why I don't think it should be about winning is because it creates a hostile environment. Here's an example: If a BJJ can use 100% of BJJ against me, then I should be able to use 100% of Jow against BJJ, but that would include Jow Ga weapons.. A Master has to be accredited on all that she / he trains and teaches. But if you make it about functionality, then that would include functionality against trained and untrained. Attackers are dangerous too. Just because a boxer isn't trained in kicking doesn't mean he can't punch your lights out.

Just because BJJ is untrained in the staff, doesn't mean that he cannot take the staff away from you and beat you with your own staff. By not making it about winning all participants can then focus on function.

If you lose a fight, you can still be considered functional with your system if you used the techniques you trained, so long as your lose was not great.

who is going to judge my performance in a 600 year old Japanese art that uses weaponry?

 

[JowGaWolf]

who is going to judge my performance in a 600 year old Japanese art that uses weaponry?

2 people from the top of your organization and other people from different systems.

 

[BrendanF]

Yeah - the first half is roughly what happens. No other system would have a clue as to how to assess the quality of our stuff - it is exceptionally proprietary. Similarly, no one from my ryuha would be in a position to judge the quality of any other. I can't imagine trying to assess the quality of a capoeirista's performance. Or someone doing kyudo. Or silat. et cetera.

 

[Urban Trekker]

NRA? Come on, man. We don't want or need that. My opinion only, but your idea is going from bad to worse. And believe me, I am sympathetic. Don't get me wrong. I give zero snots whether folks want to play with crystals, use goop brand yoni eggs, or train in a martial art for emotional and spiritual enlightenment. Knock yourself out.

But the idea of inexperienced, ill prepared people selling self defense snake oil is a big problem for me. I'd love to see some imposed standards. But I don't see a constructive way to do that. And the NRA, which is primarily a lobbying organization working for gun manufacturers, is not analogous.

But there is a such thing as NRA approved firearms training courses, and other things that are "NRA approved.". I don't agree with the politics of the NRA myself, but that's not what I'm focused on. What I'm focused on is some sort of self-defense organization that exists outside of martial arts clubs and associations that give some sort of "seal of approval" that certifies that a particular martial arts program is adequately effective for self-defense purposes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

No other system would have a clue as to how to assess the quality of our stuff

That's why you look at the function of it. Function doesn't look at quality. Function looks at results. I throw a jab. You use a technique to block it. In the course of sparring, you are unable to block 10 jabs. When this happens you have 2 questions that will apply to your results.
1. Is the technique functional
2. Did the person understand the technique enough to apply it properly.

After a couple of years of testing. You will eventually get an answer to #1. Even if you don't know anything about the art. You will have previous video testings showing other testers pulling it off. Function.

Now if you used the same technique hot hit with 3 jabs in the row and were able to be successful with the technique for 7 more jabs then you would probably see that the tester understood enough about the the technique to make adjustments which in turn made the technique more successful. You would also have enough video recordings to compare how different testers of the same system executed the technique. Did they execute it the same way or was it unique to one person.

The only people who should measure quality are those within your system, but function can be measured by those outside of your system. Just like the BJJ measured Roka's messed up wrist lock.

 

[drop bear]

But there is a such thing as NRA approved firearms training courses, and other things that are "NRA approved.". I don't agree with the politics of the NRA myself, but that's not what I'm focused on. What I'm focused on is some sort of self-defense organization that exists outside of martial arts clubs and associations that give some sort of "seal of approval" that certifies that a particular martial arts program is adequately effective for self-defense purposes.

Yeah. It's called MMA.

 

[Urban Trekker]

Yeah. It's called MMA.

I've seen aikidoka claim that their techniques are "too dangerous for MMA." While that should be cause for any rational human being to throw the BS flag on the play, the aikidoka who say this actually seem to believe it.

I'm sure that your comment was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but what I have in mind is something that puts and end to excuses, which MMA doesn't do.

 

[drop bear]

I've seen aikidoka claim that their techniques are "too dangerous for MMA." While that should be cause for any rational human being to throw the BS flag on the play, the aikidoka who say this actually seem to believe it.

I'm sure that your comment was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but what I have in mind is something that puts and end to excuses, which MMA doesn't do.

You will find there is nothing that puts an end to excuses.

 

[BrendanF]

That's why you look at the function of it. Function doesn't look at quality. Function looks at results. I throw a jab. You use a technique to block it. In the course of sparring, you are unable to block 10 jabs. When this happens you have 2 questions that will apply to your results.
1. Is the technique functional
2. Did the person understand the technique enough to apply it properly.

After a couple of years of testing. You will eventually get an answer to #1. Even if you don't know anything about the art. You will have previous video testings showing other testers pulling it off. Function.

Now if you used the same technique hot hit with 3 jabs in the row and were able to be successful with the technique for 7 more jabs then you would probably see that the tester understood enough about the the technique to make adjustments which in turn made the technique more successful. You would also have enough video recordings to compare how different testers of the same system executed the technique. Did they execute it the same way or was it unique to one person.

The only people who should measure quality are those within your system, but function can be measured by those outside of your system. Just like the BJJ measured Roka's messed up wrist lock.

As I said, I'm discussing a 600 year old Japanese weaponry art.

How would you 'look at the function of' this?

 

[JowGaWolf]

As I said, I'm discussing a 600 year old Japanese weaponry art.

How would you 'look at the function of' this?

The only way to test a person's functional ability with techniques from a system is to have that person use it use it.

For something that involves testing form, 2 graders from your system will be the ones to test that. People from other systems will not grade system form of something they do not train.