Aikido exploration...

[Jenna]

Action needs emotional content.

Ha you are become very "Confucius say..." what are you imbibing there? j/k

Motivation to act yes.. and but with out the action, the emotional content is mere thought

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou, you also have to understand, Ueshiba was not about fighting....Aikido is NOT about fighting...which is what so many people still keep missing. Almost every Aikido practitioner I know says that they don't care about at all about the argument of whether or not Aikido is effective or not, because they don't ever plan on fighting. Aikido is different for different people. For me, it's about relaxation, stress relief, flexibility, and connecting with other peaceful, like minded people. That's all I care about. I've studied other arts, if I am ever forced to fight, whatever I do will end up probably being a combination of my military training, other martial arts, and maybe a little Aikido. But I don't care about fighting.

Not saying that other martial artists don't have different goals....but I go to Aikido Seminars all over the US, and have trained with all kinds of Aikido practitioners, both high ranking, and not high ranking...and I cannot recall a single person...ever, ever saying that they were training Aikido to be a better fighter. Not once. Just keep that in mind...

I don't care about fighting either, but that doesn't mean that others who also take Bjj don't care about fighting.

I mean we have scores of articles, videos, books, and other sources that discuss how Aikido can stop a kick or a punch or a takedown, and that all sounds like Aikidokas caring about fighting. There are scores of Aikido schools that advertise themselves as a valid fighting method. Are all of these practicioners misinterpreting the wisdom of O sensei? You can't have it both ways.

Hoshin brought up Kyudo.. that would be a valid comparison if we had several examples of Kyudo practicioners showing themselves actually hunting animals with Kyudo bows and arrows. The difference here is that there are numerous Aikido practicioners applying their skills in a martial fashion in response to outside pressure to show the validity of their techniques. If Aikido were merely a spiritual pursuit, such validation wouldn't be necessary.

 

[hoshin1600]

Hoshin brought up Kyudo.. that would be a valid comparison if we had several examples of Kyudo practicioners showing themselves actually hunting animals with Kyudo bows and arrows. The difference here is that there are numerous Aikido practicioners applying their skills in a martial fashion in response to outside pressure to show the validity of their techniques. If Aikido were merely a spiritual pursuit, such validation wouldn't be necessary.

i see it just the opposite. you have hoards of people who began aikido because of steven seagal being a badass in the movies. him saying he is a tough guy and all that nonsense. so people signed up thinking it will magicly turn them into fighters and then maybe they dont want to admit that they still cant fight. its no different than karate in that regard. tons of people took karate and still cant fight, if questioned after they got black belt and own a school, who is going to admit that they cant fight? the ego is a strong influence. if you have the entire world of martial arts expecting aikido to be valid for fighting the response is not going to be ,,yes your right, we cant fight.

 

[hoshin1600]

i see aikido in the same light as kyudo, shodo, flower arranging, pottery, the tea ceremony. these things are a kind of charactercher of the real thing. not unlike anime, with the overly exaggerated features. if people mistake it for something that its not, then those people are trying to find a validation for the arts existence when one already is there (even if they dont like it) or they are trying to validate themselves.

 

[Hanzou]

i see it just the opposite. you have hoards of people who began aikido because of steven seagal being a badass in the movies. him saying he is a tough guy and all that nonsense. so people signed up thinking it will magicly turn them into fighters and then maybe they dont want to admit that they still cant fight. its no different than karate in that regard. tons of people took karate and still cant fight, if questioned after they got black belt and own a school, who is going to admit that they cant fight? the ego is a strong influence. if you have the entire world of martial arts expecting aikido to be valid for fighting the response is not going to be ,,yes your right, we cant fight.

Well again, how can you blame people for misinterpreting the purpose of Aikido when you have demonstrations of people getting thrown around effortlessly, or getting pinned down in painful joint locks? Not once in any of those demos have I ever heard anyone say that an Aikidoka couldn't do that to someone trying to attack them. Never once have I ever seen an Aikido dojo say that their martial art isn't for self defense purposes. If you go to a Kyudo or Iado dojo and say that you're seeking self defense training, they'll laugh at you.

Also keep in mind that many Karatekas fail at fighting ability because of the lackluster training methodology found in many dojos, not because those karate styles have some bizarre esoteric and pacifist philosophy.

 

[Hanzou]

Your first point, generation of Aikidoka misinterpreting.. yes.. I know this to be true. Though I do not know how you mean it exactly, and but for me is not a matter of technical ability or inability rather a misapplication.. like a utilisation in a manner of trying to win; trying to beat a person.. with that mind set Aikido is ineffective.. why? Because it is doing a job is not designed to do.. that job is better designed for edged blade, claw hammer or a gun depending upon your own proclivities.. so maybe you can disagree with me agreeing with you and but I agree with you disagreeing with me

What I'm saying is that Ueshiba more than likely designed Aikido to be a capstone of a lifetime of training, not something for a novice person to pick up as their first martial art.

To your second point; Are you saying that Aikido is not designed to bring someone into submission? Isn't that 90% of what you guys do with the wrist and joint locks that dominate the system?

 

[hoshin1600]

Never once have I ever seen an Aikido dojo say that their martial art isn't for self defense purposes

Ok but do I need to point out that you don't train in aikido?
My teacher made it quite clear on a daily basis that he had no interest in aikido as self defense. But we would all sit thru lecture every class how the principals of aikido applied "to daily life" he was a shin shin toistu aikido guy from the koichi tohei line. He would constantly say he didn't care if his aikido didn't work. He was only interested in how the practice taught you how to deal with others going thru life.
If I go up a level to his association founder and my other teacher, Fumio toyoda, he would teach the techniques which did impress me. He never talked about street effectiveness or anything related to it. He just taught the art. But I will admit in AAA organization there were some ranked teachers who were LEO who would talk about it.
As I said before this is all just my opinion.

 

[Jenna]

What I'm saying is that Ueshiba more than likely designed Aikido to be a capstone of a lifetime of training, not something for a novice person to pick up as their first martial art.

Well yes, and but I would want to ty to make a point I do not know if you would accept.. A capstone, I can go with that term as I understand it.. however.. in technique terms this capstone idea is no more pertinent than with any other art, or any other physical activity for that matter.. If I would assent to your idea of a capstone, it would be purely in the intent of pure Aikido through its interwoven philosophy of harmony and NOT physical through technique alone.. because any one off of the street can start off with their shomenuchi whatevers.. say if that need clarified yes?

To your second point; Are you saying that Aikido is not designed to bring someone into submission? Isn't that 90% of what you guys do with the wrist and joint locks that dominate the system?

Well, if Aikidoka bring some one to submission, then Aikido per O'Sensei is not what is happening.. they are deploying technique something deriving from DRAJJ or perhaps Judo.. not same as doing Aikido.. Submission is concomitant with a mindset of competition, of winning, of dominance.. is not Aikido.. all that is sought through Aikido technique is return to calm.. If I try to manipulate you into submission and your ire is up.. your submission will only be temporary and you will come at me again or you will carry a resent.. So then I would have to up the ante.. then would you likewise etc.. for me fighting stop when you decide it stop.. I will be decisive in my technique and but I do not attempt to coerce you.. yes.. Aikidoka do this.. and but is not Aikido as informed by Ueshiba philosophy.. For me, is this precise philosophy that ensure Aikido is a true Way and not just dicking around in a dojo.. THIS is from where I could see your capstone idea.. as for other Aikidoka.. meh I cannot speak for others except what I observe..

Hey you know I reckon there is small chance that my answer makes complete sense beause our background differ.. still despite that I like your questions and manner of conduct, is easier with you to foster exchange of idea.. thank you

 

[Hanzou]

Ok but do I need to point out that you don't train in aikido?
My teacher made it quite clear on a daily basis that he had no interest in aikido as self defense. But we would all sit thru lecture every class how the principals of aikido applied "to daily life" he was a shin shin toistu aikido guy from the koichi tohei line. He would constantly say he didn't care if his aikido didn't work. He was only interested in how the practice taught you how to deal with others going thru life.
If I go up a level to his association founder and my other teacher, Fumio toyoda, he would teach the techniques which did impress me. He never talked about street effectiveness or anything related to it. He just taught the art. But I will admit in AAA organization there were some ranked teachers who were LEO who would talk about it.
As I said before this is all just my opinion.

While I don't train in Aikido, I can read and understand English. Here's an article by one of Ueshiba's students;

FightingArts.com - Effective Aikido: Defense & Wrist Technique Against A Middle Punch

Note this quote;

Many aikido teachers and schools, however, have so misunderstood aikido’s concepts of harmony and spirituality, and its history, that there has been a dilution of attention to technical detail. As a result, aikido technique often becomes so soft, flowing and dependent on cooperation that, when practiced in this manner, it loses its martial effectiveness.

Here's a few school websites that discuss Aikido as self defense;

Aikido as Self-Defense
Aikido School of Central Ohio | Martial Arts and Self-Defense Training in Columbus
Aikido: Tallahassee Martial Arts - Tallahassee Self Defense

So on one hand I'm hearing that Aikido is Yoga with wrist locks, and on the other (from Aikido schools no less) I'm hearing that Aikido is a self defense system that can save you in a fight.

It would appear that Aikido has a bit of an identity crisis.....

 

[Hanzou]

Well yes, and but I would want to ty to make a point I do not know if you would accept.. A capstone, I can go with that term as I understand it.. however.. in technique terms this capstone idea is no more pertinent than with any other art, or any other physical activity for that matter.. If I would assent to your idea of a capstone, it would be purely in the intent of pure Aikido through its interwoven philosophy of harmony and NOT physical through technique alone.. because any one off of the street can start off with their shomenuchi whatevers.. say if that need clarified yes?

I would disagree. In Bjj we practice controlling the body first, and then applying the submission. This tactic provides a much larger margin of error, and is thus easier to pull off. In Aikido, your margin for error is much smaller, since controlling the wrist (or another small part of the body) and not the entire body provides a much smaller margin of error, requiring a high level of technical prowess.

In other words, if I have someone in side control, I can perform multiple submissions BECAUSE I have control over my opponent's body. If I go for a Kimura from that position, I can mess up and still have a dominant position. In Aikido if I grab my opponent's and begin my movement, and I lose my grip, everything resets and now I have to fight to get control of my opponent's wrist again.

Given that smaller margin of error, it seems pretty obvious that Aikido is meant for a very advanced martial artist. Further, it would appear that if your Aikido fails, it would be a good idea to have a high level in something else to fall back on. Judo or Bjj would seem to be very good candidates in that regard.

Well, if Aikidoka bring some one to submission, then Aikido per O'Sensei is not what is happening.. they are deploying technique something deriving from DRAJJ or perhaps Judo.. not same as doing Aikido.. Submission is concomitant with a mindset of competition, of winning, of dominance.. is not Aikido..all that is sought through Aikido technique is return to calm.. If I try to manipulate you into submission and your ire is up.. your submission will only be temporary and you will come at me again or you will carry a resent.. So then I would have to up the ante.. then would you likewise etc.. for me fighting stop when you decide it stop.. I will be decisive in my technique and but I do not attempt to coerce you.. yes.. Aikidoka do this.. and but is not Aikido as informed by Ueshiba philosophy.. For me, is this precise philosophy that ensure Aikido is a true Way and not just dicking around in a dojo.. THIS is from where I could see your capstone idea.. as for other Aikidoka.. meh I cannot speak for others except what I observe..

And yet here is Ueshiba himself performing a series of submissions;

These philosophical absolutes you're stating here don't make sense. It's akin to me saying that if I'm using Bjj and I decide to punch someone in the face while I'm in a dominate position, I'm somehow not doing Bjj anymore. I'm sure if the ghost of Helio was watching me ground and pound some thug in the mount, he'd be cheering me on saying "That's some good Jiujitsu!"

 

[Spinedoc]

While I don't train in Aikido, I can read and understand English. Here's an article by one of Ueshiba's students;

FightingArts.com - Effective Aikido: Defense & Wrist Technique Against A Middle Punch

Note this quote;

Many aikido teachers and schools, however, have so misunderstood aikido’s concepts of harmony and spirituality, and its history, that there has been a dilution of attention to technical detail. As a result, aikido technique often becomes so soft, flowing and dependent on cooperation that, when practiced in this manner, it loses its martial effectiveness.

Here's a few school websites that discuss Aikido as self defense;

Aikido as Self-Defense
Aikido School of Central Ohio | Martial Arts and Self-Defense Training in Columbus
Aikido: Tallahassee Martial Arts - Tallahassee Self Defense

So on one hand I'm hearing that Aikido is Yoga with wrist locks, and on the other (from Aikido schools no less) I'm hearing that Aikido is a self defense system that can save you in a fight.

It would appear that Aikido has a bit of an identity crisis.....

Hanzou, Just because Aikido was not designed to fight does not mean that it cannot be used to do so. It is still a "martial" art. That being said, that is not what it's purpose is. I've never heard any of the high ranking Aikido people talk about MMA or using Aikido in fights, etc. Most of them say that Aikido makes them better as people, increases your flexibility, stamina, and focus, and helps you to deal with life. However, that's not to say that if someone swings at me in a bar, Aikido would not be effective in dealing with that.

Have you ever heard of the concept of the dynamic sphere? Aikido, as it was described to me by someone from Japan, is the eye in the center of the hurricane. It is the calm in the middle of the storm. It is designed not to stir the waters, but to be calm and watchful of it's surroundings. All around is chaos. This is why Aikido focuses on weapons work and multiple attackers so much...We assume chaos when violence happens....when the storm encroaches upon the eye.

 

[Spinedoc]

These philosophical absolutes you're stating here don't make sense. It's akin to me saying that if I'm using Bjj and I decide to punch someone in the face while I'm in a dominate position, I'm somehow not doing Bjj anymore. I'm sure if the ghost of Helio was watching me ground and pound some thug in the mount, he'd be cheering me on saying "That's some good Jiujitsu!"

For right or for wrong, Aikido operates in a lot of absolutes and assumptions. That's the art. I remember a high ranking shihan at a seminar once watching me and another student doing a technique. I was applying some resistance as my partner was a nidan, and he was struggling a bit, and having to use muscle to make the technique work. The shihan stopped him and said...."that's not Aikido...you are NOT doing Aikido" and then showed him while planting me hard into the mat how to do the technique with just a subtle angle change on the entry, and all of a sudden, the resistance I applied didn't even affect him at all. It was maybe a 3-4 degree change in the angle of entry that made all of the difference. The point is....he was trying to force a technique to work....that's NOT Aikido.

 

[Hanzou]

Hanzou, Just because Aikido was not designed to fight does not mean that it cannot be used to do so. It is still a "martial" art. That being said, that is not what it's purpose is. I've never heard any of the high ranking Aikido people talk about MMA or using Aikido in fights, etc. Most of them say that Aikido makes them better as people, increases your flexibility, stamina, and focus, and helps you to deal with life. However, that's not to say that if someone swings at me in a bar, Aikido would not be effective in dealing with that.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere.....

So we are to believe that a MARTIAL ART containing wrist locks, joint breaks, body slams, lethal throws, and evasive tactics is not designed for fighting?

Yoga improves your stamina, flexibility, and focus, but it doesn't contain tools that can teach someone to seriously injure or even kill someone else.

BTW, I think it's interesting to note that Aikido is actually potentially MORE deadly than Bjj or Judo if properly applied.

Have you ever heard of the concept of the dynamic sphere? Aikido, as it was described to me by someone from Japan, is the eye in the center of the hurricane. It is the calm in the middle of the storm. It is designed not to stir the waters, but to be calm and watchful of it's surroundings. All around is chaos. This is why Aikido focuses on weapons work and multiple attackers so much...We assume chaos when violence happens....when the storm encroaches upon the eye.

Wouldn't that mean that Aikido IS designed for fighting?

 

[Spinedoc]

Ah, now we're getting somewhere.....

So we are to believe that a MARTIAL ART containing wrist locks, joint breaks, body slams, lethal throws, and evasive tactics is not designed for fighting?

Yoga improves your stamina, flexibility, and focus, but it doesn't contain tools that can teach someone to seriously injure or even kill someone else.

BTW, I think it's interesting to note that Aikido is actually potentially MORE deadly than Bjj or Judo if properly applied.

Wouldn't that mean that Aikido IS designed for fighting?

 

[Steve]

In other words, "train hard; fight easy." Professional fighters say that all the time (well, some do, at least).

 

[Hanzou]

For right or for wrong, Aikido operates in a lot of absolutes and assumptions. That's the art. I remember a high ranking shihan at a seminar once watching me and another student doing a technique. I was applying some resistance as my partner was a nidan, and he was struggling a bit, and having to use muscle to make the technique work. The shihan stopped him and said...."that's not Aikido...you are NOT doing Aikido" and then showed him while planting me hard into the mat how to do the technique with just a subtle angle change on the entry, and all of a sudden, the resistance I applied didn't even affect him at all. It was maybe a 3-4 degree change in the angle of entry that made all of the difference. The point is....he was trying to force a technique to work....that's NOT Aikido.

Yeah, that backs up my belief that Aikido has a much smaller margin of error than other grappling systems.

pic

I suppose that's easy to say when you can throw people around without touching them.

 

[Spinedoc]

Here's some quotes from the Founder. I don't know if they will help or not, but this is what he was trying to espouse.

"True Budo is not a mere negation of the concept of opponent, but rather the total absence of the very spirit of resistance"

"Nonresistance is one of the principles of Aikido. Because there is no resistance, you have won before even starting. People whose minds are evil or who enjoy fighting are defeated without a fight."

"Aikido is not a technique to fight and defeat an enemy. It is a way to reconcile the world and make human beings one family."

"If anyone tries to fight me, it means that he is going to break harmony with the Universe, because I am the Universe. At the instant when he conceives the desire to fight with me, he is defeated."

"The world will continue to change dramatically, but fighting and war can destroy us utterly. What we need now are techniques of harmony, not those of contention. The Art of Peace is required, not the Art of War."

"Real Budo is the protection of all beings with a spirit of reconciliation. That means allowing the completion of everyone's mission."

Also, here's a great piece from the late Stanley Pranin, my friend, who died last month.

Aikidoka: “The Apologetic Martial Artists,” by Stanley Pranin

 

[Hanzou]

Here's some quotes from the Founder. I don't know if they will help or not, but this is what he was trying to espouse.

"True Budo is not a mere negation of the concept of opponent, but rather the total absence of the very spirit of resistance"

"Nonresistance is one of the principles of Aikido. Because there is no resistance, you have won before even starting. People whose minds are evil or who enjoy fighting are defeated without a fight."

"Aikido is not a technique to fight and defeat an enemy. It is a way to reconcile the world and make human beings one family."

"If anyone tries to fight me, it means that he is going to break harmony with the Universe, because I am the Universe. At the instant when he conceives the desire to fight with me, he is defeated."

"The world will continue to change dramatically, but fighting and war can destroy us utterly. What we need now are techniques of harmony, not those of contention. The Art of Peace is required, not the Art of War."

"Real Budo is the protection of all beings with a spirit of reconciliation. That means allowing the completion of everyone's mission."

Also, here's a great piece from the late Stanley Pranin, my friend, who died last month.

Aikidoka: “The Apologetic Martial Artists,” by Stanley Pranin

Well none of that is really unique to Ueshiba, or Aikido itself really. Jigoro Kano has similar beliefs surrounding Judo, as does Gichin Funakoshi and Shotokan. In fact, Ueshiba's beliefs expressed here are pretty common throughout the modern Japanese arts that have embraced Budo.

With all due respect to Pranin, I think he writes off the benefits of competition in that article and how it can not only keep your skills sharp, but also help your martial art evolve. Some of the biggest innovations in Judo and Bjj came from competition (the Triangle Choke and Closed Guard being prime examples), and those innovations have pretty strong self defense applications.

Additionally, you'll never know if your techniques are actually effective unless you're going up against a fully resistant partner. That only happens in a competitive environment. I understand the reverence towards O'Sensei's beliefs, but the lack of competition can be highly detrimental to a martial art's development.

 

[drop bear]

Here's some quotes from the Founder. I don't know if they will help or not, but this is what he was trying to espouse.

"True Budo is not a mere negation of the concept of opponent, but rather the total absence of the very spirit of resistance"

"Nonresistance is one of the principles of Aikido. Because there is no resistance, you have won before even starting. People whose minds are evil or who enjoy fighting are defeated without a fight."

"Aikido is not a technique to fight and defeat an enemy. It is a way to reconcile the world and make human beings one family."

"If anyone tries to fight me, it means that he is going to break harmony with the Universe, because I am the Universe. At the instant when he conceives the desire to fight with me, he is defeated."

"The world will continue to change dramatically, but fighting and war can destroy us utterly. What we need now are techniques of harmony, not those of contention. The Art of Peace is required, not the Art of War."

"Real Budo is the protection of all beings with a spirit of reconciliation. That means allowing the completion of everyone's mission."

Also, here's a great piece from the late Stanley Pranin, my friend, who died last month.

Aikidoka: “The Apologetic Martial Artists,” by Stanley Pranin

Didn't we just watch a video with a karate guy showing the fight effectiveness of Aikido?

That is the point of this thread.

If we were going to argue about if Aikido is primarily designed for personal development. The what exactly does aikido do to achieve that?

 

[Buka]

I don't care about fighting either

Are your pants on fire, my friend?