acidemic testing vs martial school testing

[Steve]

I had chosen a real case study.

I have had comments from purists that he may no fully comprehend the full depths of his martial arts or something. Possibly couldn't teach. That kind of thing.

I've seen similar situations, and figured you were probably thinking of something that has happened. As I said, if the kid can do what needs to be done, awesome. If not, even with thoughtful accommodations in place, then it's at best condescending and at worst exploitative.

 

[Dirty Dog]

This is a good point, though.
At our dojang, we are willing to promote someone with good understanding but limited physical abilities - we have a woman who is over 70 and currently 2nd Geup. She will never have the physical capabilities of the younger students, but her understanding of not just the material taught but also the principals behind technique is excellent. She will eventually make 1st Dan.
We have another student (in her 20's) who has decent physical abilities, but her understanding is limited, and will always be limited. She is currently 1st Geup. We've delayed several of her promotions because of her limited understanding. But when her understanding is as good as it's going to get given her limitations, she gets promoted. I expect she will also eventually make 1st Dan.
I do not think we are exploiting or condescending to either. We're training them to the limits of their physical and intellectual abilities.

 

[drop bear]

I've seen similar situations, and figured you were probably thinking of something that has happened. As I said, if the kid can do what needs to be done, awesome. If not, even with thoughtful accommodations in place, then it's at best condescending and at worst exploitative.

I've seen similar situations, and figured you were probably thinking of something that has happened. As I said, if the kid can do what needs to be done, awesome. If not, even with thoughtful accommodations in place, then it's at best condescending and at worst exploitative.

I think the concept of it being condescending is a bit rough. We have that stance because we have essentially fighters and not fighters. And even if the guy is great and a credit to the club. If he cant fight. Well he cant fight. But at a belt level I would be more liberal with my definition of effective black belt.
Actually i might have a better one. To get your bjj black i believe you have to compete?

This was raised on an ed oneil black belt discussion once. And i believe the argument was well not really because reasons.

 

[Buka]

I have no problem with anyone running a dojo and testing any way they want. I have no problem with promoting without testing. If I had to do it all over again, I'd go the no testing route.

But if there IS testing it's real simple, fellas. Go to class everyday and work your *** off. You'll never have to worry about a test.

 

[Steve]

I think the concept of it being condescending is a bit rough. We have that stance because we have essentially fighters and not fighters. And even if the guy is great and a credit to the club. If he cant fight. Well he cant fight. But at a belt level I would be more liberal with my definition of effective black belt.
Actually i might have a better one. To get your bjj black i believe you have to compete?

This was raised on an ed oneil black belt discussion once. And i believe the argument was well not really because reasons.

I get your point, and it's a good one. I'm not saying that you should or shouldn't promote people with disabilities. What I'm really endorsing is having reasonable standards that can be applied equitably regardless of disability. It's the fundamental difference between an accommodation and an exception. An accommodation is a creative way which allows someone with an impairment to meet or exceed standards. An exception takes the persons outside of standards, which undermines the accomplishment.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I have no problem with anyone running a dojo and testing any way they want. I have no problem with promoting without testing. If I had to do it all over again, I'd go the no testing route.

But if there IS testing it's real simple, fellas. Go to class everyday and work your *** off. You'll never have to worry about a test.

Yes working hard is important but you also have to work smart. You know what they say, horses work hard. To get to success, you also have to work smart. As I've learned, the road to success is more than just pushing yourself, you also got to be pushing in the right direction and this is why I believe its sometimes appropriate to ask teachers or senseis stuff if you don't understand it.

 

[Buka]

Yes working hard is important but you also have to work smart. You know what they say, horses work hard. To get to success, you also have to work smart. As I've learned, the road to success is more than just pushing yourself, you also got to be pushing in the right direction and this is why I believe its sometimes appropriate to ask teachers or senseis stuff if you don't understand it.

I completely agree.

But you're not speaking of the "when can I test" question, are you?

 

[Transk53]

This is a good point, though.
At our dojang, we are willing to promote someone with good understanding but limited physical abilities - we have a woman who is over 70 and currently 2nd Geup. She will never have the physical capabilities of the younger students, but her understanding of not just the material taught but also the principals behind technique is excellent. She will eventually make 1st Dan.
We have another student (in her 20's) who has decent physical abilities, but her understanding is limited, and will always be limited. She is currently 1st Geup. We've delayed several of her promotions because of her limited understanding. But when her understanding is as good as it's going to get given her limitations, she gets promoted. I expect she will also eventually make 1st Dan.
I do not think we are exploiting or condescending to either. We're training them to the limits of their physical and intellectual abilities.

Very good to hear that DD!

 

[PhotonGuy]

I completely agree.

But you're not speaking of the "when can I test" question, are you?

No, more along the lines of, "what do I need to do to be ready to test," although I wouldn't ask that unless it was already taking me longer than usual to advance in rank and I was unclear as to why. Good questions shouldn't be limited to just that though. If you want to develop a certain technique better or if you're struggling with a technical aspect of the art than maybe you should ask, if you're stuck.

 

[Buka]

I agree, any student should ask an Instructor about anything they have a question on. And the Instructor should help them. That's what instructors are for.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I agree, any student should ask an Instructor about anything they have a question on. And the Instructor should help them. That's what instructors are for.

Its been awhile since I posted on this thread but Buka, I believe it was you who said that any student at your place who asks questions about belts or rank gets a six month suspension on rank advancement.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So, in just about every academic class I've taken, when we've got a test coming up, there are some students who will ask the teacher what they need to study to get a good grade on the test. Its usually those students who do get good grades and talking to your teacher about such stuff is usually quite encouraged. Most teachers respect students who ask them what they need to study to get good grades and they respect it when students ask stuff like that. If you ask most teachers what material you need to study they will tell you what material, they will tell you the chapters you need to study, ect. They won't tell you exactly what will be on the test but they will tell you everything you need to study and that is not regarded as spoon feeding in any way, shape, or form.

 

[oftheherd1]

Promoting someone with a disability above their level of accomplishment, I think it would be patronizing and exploitive.

Couple of questions I'd ask if I ran that school. First, are the qualifications for black belt clear, well defined, objective and fair? Second, does this child with down's syndrome meet the minimum expectations?

If the answer to the first question is no, that school or system has some work to do. I'd grade the child, because really, there are issues with the standards. They are either poorly defined and vague, subjective or unfair.

If the answer to the second question is no, I would not grade him. If the answer is yes, I would absolutely grade him.

A key consideration here would be to define the qualifications, with an emphasis on what is essential for grading and what is not.

Coming from the Hapkido school I learned at, we were told we had to make it work for ourselves; but were taught what through time had been found to be best for most people. I have seen video of a wheelchair-bound karate student who could take on many people and win. So do you think there can be no accommodation for those with limited physical or mental abilities?

Given what I said above, I think you are splitting hairs just a little too fine. What are the expectations for a wheelchair-bound person, or a child with downs syndrome? If they learn to use what they are taught, that they can learn and use, is there no room for accommodation?

If you can fail it, sure, it might be a test. But this would suggest that a person is taking the test before they're ready. You said that the Martial Arts model is for a person to take the test only when they're ready. If they're ready, they can't fail, and therefore aren't taking a test; rather, they are performing a demonstration.

I personally think you are again splitting hairs too fine. In the Hapkido school I attended, the GM would not test you until he thought you were ready. He certainly would not send a person to the Hapkido headquarters to fail a black belt test. Colored belts could be failed, I just never saw it happen. So it was not necessary to continuously take colored belt tests. My GM was too good a teacher to allow that to happen. But I guess every school is allowed to be what it wants to be.

Still, as was said above, any test could be failed, including tests in the school where I went. But the way it was controlled by my GM, it didn't happen that I know of.

I understand your arguments, but I think you are not willing enough to make accommodations when a person can be a formidable MA with the skills they do have.

 

[Steve]

Coming from the Hapkido school I learned at, we were told we had to make it work for ourselves; but were taught what through time had been found to be best for most people. I have seen video of a wheelchair-bound karate student who could take on many people and win. So do you think there can be no accommodation for those with limited physical or mental abilities?

Given what I said above, I think you are splitting hairs just a little too fine. What are the expectations for a wheelchair-bound person, or a child with downs syndrome? If they learn to use what they are taught, that they can learn and use, is there no room for accommodation?

I think I must not have been clear, because my point was the opposite. I think many schools have not considered how to create a promotion structure that can be inclusive, and so resort to meaningless and exploitive exceptions where people with impairments are concerned. If you create overly concrete and inflexible criteria for promotion, you limit your ability to provide meaningful accommodation for people who are disabled. AND, there is nothing saying that a person of any ability level, regardless of physical or mental limitation, can enjoy and benefit from training. My point is that, if the criteria for a pink belt in your style is that a person must do X, Y and Z, you are exploiting the disabled individual for feel good points, and are disrespecting their actual accomplishments. In my opinion.

Frankly, styles where the promotion criteria is less rigid allows for more interpretation of the intent. So, for example, in BJJ, it would not be a big deal for someone who cannot do an armbar from guard to be promoted to blue belt. While that is a fundamental technique, the promotion structure within BJJ isn't that rigid. There is plenty of room within the promotion structure to accommodate physical or mental impairments, as there should be.

Conversely, if someone is promoted to blue belt in BJJ, they will have earned it, regardless of physical or mental limitations. Not everyone will be a black belt in BJJ. Or a purple belt even. But what rank is awarded is rank well earned.

I went back and found this thread. Just spent a few minutes re-reading it, and it's got a lot of great contributions from people. I posted many times over the course of the thread, if you want to get a little more insight into where I'm coming from.

Disabled students as black belts MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

I personally think you are again splitting hairs too fine. In the Hapkido school I attended, the GM would not test you until he thought you were ready. He certainly would not send a person to the Hapkido headquarters to fail a black belt test. Colored belts could be failed, I just never saw it happen. So it was not necessary to continuously take colored belt tests. My GM was too good a teacher to allow that to happen. But I guess every school is allowed to be what it wants to be.

Still, as was said above, any test could be failed, including tests in the school where I went. But the way it was controlled by my GM, it didn't happen that I know of.

I understand your arguments, but I think you are not willing enough to make accommodations when a person can be a formidable MA with the skills they do have.

I don't think you understand my arguments, but that's likely because I'm being too subtle or am not being clear.

It's theoretically possible that the Sun will not rise in the East tomorrow. We don't know everything there is to know about the universe, and it's actually a logical fallacy to conclude for certain that something will happen just because it always has. But do we truly consider it a possibility? No. The sun will rise in the East, set in the West and by your own account, no one will fail their promotion tests. Just won't be allowed to happen.

So, if no one fails a test, it's not an actual test. It is a demonstration.

The actual test sounds like it occurs in the school, over time. In your situation, the real test sounds like it's a practical test graded by your GM. Which is fine. Makes sense.

If you think it's splitting hairs, fine. No problem. I think the distinction is significant and important.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I personally think you are again splitting hairs too fine. In the Hapkido school I attended, the GM would not test you until he thought you were ready. He certainly would not send a person to the Hapkido headquarters to fail a black belt test. Colored belts could be failed, I just never saw it happen.

So to test for a black belt you had to go to the Hapkido headquarters but to test for lower belts it was done at your regular Hapkido studio, is that correct?

 

[oftheherd1]

...

The actual test sounds like it occurs in the school, over time. In your situation, the real test sounds like it's a practical test graded by your GM. Which is fine. Makes sense.

If you think it's splitting hairs, fine. No problem. I think the distinction is significant and important.

I guess you could say colored belt tests were over time, observation by the teacher. There was a practice black belt test prior to the actual black belt test, but I always considered it more for the student to acquire confidence.

 

[oftheherd1]

So to test for a black belt you had to go to the Hapkido headquarters but to test for lower belts it was done at your regular Hapkido studio, is that correct?

Yes, that was the way it was normally done. Is it done differently at your school? I don't recall what your MA is nor what your experience in it is. Could you let me know? I ask because you seem surprised that it would be that way.

 

[Buka]

Its been awhile since I posted on this thread but Buka, I believe it was you who said that any student at your place who asks questions about belts or rank gets a six month suspension on rank advancement.

Sorry about not replying sooner, I just saw it.

I don't test anyone anymore. I sometimes sit in when my guys are testing their students. (my students, by the way, test completely differently than I did) But, yes, when I used to do all testing, if someone asked when they could test I'd tack on six more months. Put a stop to that question being asked. I did that because I didn't want students thinking about what color belt they wore. And - they all knew this up front, I wasn't trying to bust anyone's chops. Also, every six months or so I'd have everyone switch belts for a night, look at themselves in the mirror to see how wonderfully cute they were with a different color belt, then drill (workout) them as hard as I could.

Sometimes, I'd promote someone without a test. And a "test" was just that. Not everyone passed. (some times because they weren't in the shape I thought necessary - again, they knew this up front) There was also a written test anytime there was testing. Some folks flunked that part.
Hey, nobody said it was going to be easy.

But if I were to do it all over again, I'd go the BJJ route concerning belts for my Karate students. I like it better.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Yes, that was the way it was normally done. Is it done differently at your school? I don't recall what your MA is nor what your experience in it is. Could you let me know? I ask because you seem surprised that it would be that way.

At my school all belt tests are done right there at the studio, including black belt tests and all tests for proceeding black belt degrees (2nd degree, 3rd degree, ect.) My school is independent and not part of a larger organization so there wouldn't be any other place to hold belt tests. I do know some places which are part of larger organizations hold their black belt tests at specialized locations, usually a central headquarters of some sort, while lower belt tests are done right at the studio without having to go to any central headquarters. Your school sounds like such a place.

 

[oftheherd1]

At my school all belt tests are done right there at the studio, including black belt tests and all tests for proceeding black belt degrees (2nd degree, 3rd degree, ect.) My school is independent and not part of a larger organization so there wouldn't be any other place to hold belt tests. I do know some places which are part of larger organizations hold their black belt tests at specialized locations, usually a central headquarters of some sort, while lower belt tests are done right at the studio without having to go to any central headquarters. Your school sounds like such a place.

If you have no affiliations I could see how that would be. In Korea, I think most schools would be part of a larger organization. That was certainly true when I was there studying, and certainly true for my GM's schools. His son has a school here in the States and while his father was alive, I suspect he did the BB testing with his father. Since his father (My GM) has passed, he may be doing it on his own, but I don't know.