acidemic testing vs martial school testing

tshadowchaser

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Ok
Lets discuss academic testing vs the testing of martial arts students. Should one or the other or both only be test when they are ready?
Should there be a standard for testing one or both?. If an academic student was not ready or never ready what should be done with that person and the same for the martial student?
 

drop bear

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Different because the reason for the qualification is different. A doctor is trusted with having to perform surgery. So his qualification has to be to a standard. A martial artist does not have to fight bad guys. At some point you just give him the belt.

As. A case study, down syndrome black belt kid. Ii mean will he ever be the top fightinist black belt in the club sending out fear and respect to everyone he meets?

No.

But what sort of monster is not going to grade the guy.
 
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tshadowchaser

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A side note before this thread gets going. This is a spinoff thread from PhotonGuy's "I should have clarified "
 
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tshadowchaser

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For myself I see to completely different reasons for learning. One is for a grade or degree that perhaps will benefit a person in getting a job. The other is for a bunch of reasons : health, self protection, preparation in saving a life.
One need to met certain standards set up by the government be it local or federal. The other meets the requirement of the school or organization. One has time limits and material listed to pass or not. The other usual y dose not have time limits and the material may change for each person.
In the first you do not pay for tests ( not sure about private schools) in the 2nd you may well pay and pay and pay in many places.
 

Transk53

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Ok
Lets discuss academic testing vs the testing of martial arts students. Should one or the other or both only be test when they are ready?
Should there be a standard for testing one or both?. If an academic student was not ready or never ready what should be done with that person and the same for the martial student?

With the academic testing, they are forced into a timetable schedule. I suppose in a way the same could be applied to martial arts. Not in the usual sense, but in the fastrack/intensive sense. For example the school out in Thailand that offers residential courses in MT for a month or so. In that sense not much different than doing a GCSE or A-Level. With a processional certification like Microsoft, you would have a certain amount of control to pick when you do an exam, but I would imagine the sense of freedom on that would not be that great. Perhaps a little more pressurized.
 

PhotonGuy

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This was a good thread to start. Anyway, one difference I see between academic schooling and testing and the same stuff in martial arts is that it is not seen as wrong or disrespectful for a student to ask a teacher what they need to study or work on and/or what they need to do to get a good grade. As for martial arts, at least based on some of the posts in this forum, that same stuff can be seen as disrespectful. At least that's the impression I've got from some of the posts.
 
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tshadowchaser

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I would think that in the world of academics a student should know what they are supposed to study and be ready for the exam. If they need to ask they have not been paying attention in class.
In the martial arts world it should be much the same. The Instructor should have presented the material in class, gone over it enough times so that students know it is expected to be known.
In both cases the student may need to go over the material on his own or in a group environment to better understand the material and place it in his/her memory.
Asking if you missed something because you where sick,on vacation, etc. should be allowed in both cases but to specifically ask whats on the test is asking the instructor in both cases to basically give you the answers to what is upcoming.
 

drop bear

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I would think that in the world of academics a student should know what they are supposed to study and be ready for the exam. If they need to ask they have not been paying attention in class.
In the martial arts world it should be much the same. The Instructor should have presented the material in class, gone over it enough times so that students know it is expected to be known.
In both cases the student may need to go over the material on his own or in a group environment to better understand the material and place it in his/her memory.
Asking if you missed something because you where sick,on vacation, etc. should be allowed in both cases but to specifically ask whats on the test is asking the instructor in both cases to basically give you the answers to what is upcoming.

Not academic vs martial grading. But on that vein i would fight camp the guy before a grading.

Then regardless of whether they pass or fail they were at least prepared for it.
 

Transk53

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Not academic vs martial grading. But on that vein i would fight camp the guy before a grading.

Then regardless of whether they pass or fail they were at least prepared for it.

That does make sense. The exposure as you say can still be valid and useful.
 

PhotonGuy

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I would think that in the world of academics a student should know what they are supposed to study and be ready for the exam. If they need to ask they have not been paying attention in class.
In the martial arts world it should be much the same. The Instructor should have presented the material in class, gone over it enough times so that students know it is expected to be known.
In both cases the student may need to go over the material on his own or in a group environment to better understand the material and place it in his/her memory.
Asking if you missed something because you where sick,on vacation, etc. should be allowed in both cases but to specifically ask whats on the test is asking the instructor in both cases to basically give you the answers to what is upcoming.

I've never heard of it being disrespectful for students in academics to ask teachers if there's something they don't understand. In high school and in college it is not uncommon to see students approach the teacher after class and ask about certain stuff. Never have I seen a student rebuked for that or told that they were being disrespectful.
 

Steve

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I don't think I completely understand what is being asked here. Academic testing meaning like in a school? Or academic as in a contrast to a practical test?

At first blush, I think that the core issue is structure in a curriculum, and less about the mechanics of testing and promotion. If the curriculum is well structured, subjective and proficiency based, then the rest tends to take care of itself.
 

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As. A case study, down syndrome black belt kid. Ii mean will he ever be the top fightinist black belt in the club sending out fear and respect to everyone he meets?

No.

But what sort of monster is not going to grade the guy.
Promoting someone with a disability above their level of accomplishment, I think it would be patronizing and exploitive.

Couple of questions I'd ask if I ran that school. First, are the qualifications for black belt clear, well defined, objective and fair? Second, does this child with down's syndrome meet the minimum expectations?

If the answer to the first question is no, that school or system has some work to do. I'd grade the child, because really, there are issues with the standards. They are either poorly defined and vague, subjective or unfair.

If the answer to the second question is no, I would not grade him. If the answer is yes, I would absolutely grade him.

A key consideration here would be to define the qualifications, with an emphasis on what is essential for grading and what is not.
 
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tshadowchaser

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I've never heard of it being disrespectful for students in academics to ask teachers if there's something they don't understand. In high school and in college it is not uncommon to see students approach the teacher after class and ask about certain stuff. Never have I seen a student rebuked for that or told that they were being disrespectful.

Never said it was disrespectful for an academic to ask what was on the exam I said if they had been paying attention in class they should know what was covered and what they had been told to study. Asking for extra help in both is not wrong but only studying what is on the exam is wrong. For the martial arts student he/she should know all the material from day one to the point of his testing and these things should be practiced constantly.
In truth I fell that most exams in both academics and martial arts should be given without an announcement before hand of when the test is. That way the students must keep up with whats is abd has been taught
 

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Never said it was disrespectful for an academic to ask what was on the exam I said if they had been paying attention in class they should know what was covered and what they had been told to study. Asking for extra help in both is not wrong but only studying what is on the exam is wrong. For the martial arts student he/she should know all the material from day one to the point of his testing and these things should be practiced constantly.
In truth I fell that most exams in both academics and martial arts should be given without an announcement before hand of when the test is. That way the students must keep up with whats is abd has been taught

OK you make some good points. I will make a more in depth response in a later post since Im a bit pressed for time right now.
 

PhotonGuy

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So anyway, I will say this quickly. One big difference I've noticed between academic testing and martial arts testing is this. With academic testing, tests are mandatory. You have to take them when they're given. With martial arts testing, in many dojos, its the other way around, you don't take the test until you're ready. So in academic testing you have to be ready when they give the tests in martial arts testing you don't get the test until you're ready. Interesting how they're backwards.
 

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So anyway, I will say this quickly. One big difference I've noticed between academic testing and martial arts testing is this. With academic testing, tests are mandatory. You have to take them when they're given. With martial arts testing, in many dojos, its the other way around, you don't take the test until you're ready. So in academic testing you have to be ready when they give the tests in martial arts testing you don't get the test until you're ready. Interesting how they're backwards.
This model isn't universal. But in this model, using the term "test" in the martial arts model isn't really appropriate. If you cannot fail, it's not a test. Rather, it's a demonstration.
 

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This model isn't universal. But in this model, using the term "test" in the martial arts model isn't really appropriate. If you cannot fail, it's not a test. Rather, it's a demonstration.

Well as Blindside pointed out in another thread, a person can fail a test even if they're "ready." Its one thing to be able to do the techniques up to par, its another thing to be able to perform that well on a test. As it is a test depends on your performance at that time and some people just don't perform well on tests although they might perform well in practice. Part of the challenge of passing a test is performance under pressure which is what you have to deal with when you're taking a test.
 

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Well as Blindside pointed out in another thread, a person can fail a test even if they're "ready." Its one thing to be able to do the techniques up to par, its another thing to be able to perform that well on a test. As it is a test depends on your performance at that time and some people just don't perform well on tests although they might perform well in practice. Part of the challenge of passing a test is performance under pressure which is what you have to deal with when you're taking a test.
If you can fail it, sure, it might be a test. But this would suggest that a person is taking the test before they're ready. You said that the Martial Arts model is for a person to take the test only when they're ready. If they're ready, they can't fail, and therefore aren't taking a test; rather, they are performing a demonstration.
 

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If you can fail it, sure, it might be a test. But this would suggest that a person is taking the test before they're ready. You said that the Martial Arts model is for a person to take the test only when they're ready. If they're ready, they can't fail, and therefore aren't taking a test; rather, they are performing a demonstration.

I chose when to schedule my oral defense for my Master's degree when I thought I was ready, my professors would not have scheduled it if they thought I wasn't ready, but I could certainly fail. It certainly was not a demonstration, had I frozen up and not been able to recall the science behind my arguments I would have failed.
 

drop bear

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Promoting someone with a disability above their level of accomplishment, I think it would be patronizing and exploitive.

Couple of questions I'd ask if I ran that school. First, are the qualifications for black belt clear, well defined, objective and fair? Second, does this child with down's syndrome meet the minimum expectations?

If the answer to the first question is no, that school or system has some work to do. I'd grade the child, because really, there are issues with the standards. They are either poorly defined and vague, subjective or unfair.

If the answer to the second question is no, I would not grade him. If the answer is yes, I would absolutely grade him.

A key consideration here would be to define the qualifications, with an emphasis on what is essential for grading and what is not.


I had chosen a real case study.

I have had comments from purists that he may no fully comprehend the full depths of his martial arts or something. Possibly couldn't teach. That kind of thing.
 
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