About Shoto Tanemura!

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Chris

It should be allowed for others to see and let them make up their minds aout the Genbukan. I am only presenting things that I find odd or things I always questioned. Alot of answers I recieve from Genbukan teachers seems to put Tanemura on a pedestal and make up excuses and such then rather question certain things.

Here is something interesting on Wang Shu Jin:

http://www.kempojutsu.net/page6/page11/page15/page15.html

Interesting notes are :

That Wang Shu Jin did live with a Mr. Kohno and Wang did appoint him as a 4th generation disciple as well.

There are actually quite alot of 4th generation disciple of Wang:Kent Howard,Christopher Kasey just to name two.
Li Zi Ming also has many generation disciple and I do not see them using the term Denjin as a reference to their title.
Concerning the title of Denjin I emailed Mr. Black who Li Zi Ming appointed as President of the U.S. branch if anyone else was given title Denjin.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yeah, I'm always all for open, public debate, so I've got no problem with this at all. As I said, I'm not finding anything that leaps out as completely out of place, although I don't place anyone on a pedestal. My teacher, who I have nothing but respect and admiration for, is just a man. So is Tanemura Sensei, so is Hatsumi Sensei, so was Takamatsu Sensei. I have huge respect for these people, but I never lose sight of the humanity inherent in each of them (and, of course, myself).

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Chris
It is true it not completely out of place there does seem to be a shift though. :uhyeah:

Maybe if the Genbukan teachers were more open with the questions instead of the hush hush,go train,not part of our organization deal I can cut em' some slack but when people start answering in that fashion it rises more suspectful behavior.

But for me there are to many questions,to many oddities(even if they are not completely out of place) to much hush hush,dare I say to many sokeship and Menkyo titles then a plumber has pliers.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Maybe if the Genbukan teachers were more open with the questions instead of the hush hush,go train,not part of our organization deal I can cut em' some slack but when people start answering in that fashion it rises more suspectful behavior.

But for me there are to many questions,to many oddities(even if they are not completely out of place) to much hush hush,dare I say to many sokeship and Menkyo titles then a plumber has pliers.

Hi, I don't know if the former remark included me or not, but just in case...
It's not that I don't want to talk about it, but honestly there is nothing useful I can say.

All of this happened when I was still in kindergarten.
I don't speak Japanese and I don't know the culture very well, though I do know enough of it to know that westerners discussion this issue is like fish discussing birds.

And this goes for vitrually all people who discuss this issue. The only people who know more of it are the handful of high level practisioners like Troy. And even they don't know Tanemura sensei and Hatsumi sensei that well that they know everything that happened between them and in the history of their respective organizations.

So for newbies like me, it all comes down to the question :did Tanemura sensei receive menkyo kaiden in the arts he teaches. Because that validates his MA lineage. The rest is all politics and about interpretation.

In my case, I am convinced that the answer is yes. So with that out of the way, all that is left now is to train and ignore all the inter Xkan politics.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Bruno the comment does not really refer to you. It actually refers to Higher up teachers. We are talking about 4dan and up.

I don't speak Japanese and I don't know the culture very well, though I do know enough of it to know that westerners discussion this issue is like fish discussing birds.

Depends on the age of the Japanese. My motherin law and Wife have both spoke to Mr.Tanemura in Japan they find his mannerism to be a crafty businessman more than the charismatic Budo master which is their impression of him.

did Tanemura sensei receive menkyo kaiden in the arts he teaches. Because that validates his MA lineage.

So he says. The only ones I can question is the Hakkun ryu that was resurrected,Denjin as a title,Koryu Karate(created in Gendai era)passing it as a Koryu art. Though these things may true it is somewhat embellishing and stretching of this truth.

In my case, I am convinced that the answer is yes. So with that out of the way, all that is left now is to train and ignore all the inter Xkan politics.

There may be people who would like to know these things maybe they themselves have questions like this before they part ways with their money and time.People can read these posts and draw their own conclusions towards Mr.Tanemura and the Genbukan this was never an attempt to Fraud bust it is an attempt to bring things to light in order to understand the Genbukan and Mr.Tanemura.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

On the note of what Chris said about other schools resurrecting dead schools based on modern techniques. We know Kaneko ryu is a dead school,However because Tomoharu Kaneko was a soke of Togakure and my wife who trained with Ohno Shihan(Genbukan Soka Dojo in Japan) by this logic Mrs. Kaneko can resurrect the Kaneko ryu and use the families Kamon to futher illustrate linerage. All she has to do is "Hear a voice"

Now If She did this and posted it on a website I can guarantee she will get flack from quite alot of people so why the double standard?

Back on point: If you are a student and found a Shotokan dojo listed on the Shotokan's main site you went to the teacher he is not familar with the termology, nor the Shotokan techniques he tells you he is given permission to teach but you find out he holds the same rank as you(no rank) and is ranked in Judo would you still want to learn Shotokan from him and pay him $100 a month for this? Do you find anything misleading in this at all?

Back on point: Using a title that makes very little sense does it not raise the eye brow and make you wonder.

Does it make you wonder if one site is claimed as the offical site and is said to list all things the master learned but his teacher learned more is it wrong to ask if he learned those things as well?

Back on point: If someting is created in modern times how can it be considered old? How can Aikido which is Gendai which is created in the 20th century be considered Koryu? By this same logic how can The Koryu karate created by Mr.Tanemura be considered Koryu if it was created in a Gendai period?

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

http://www.genbukanbudo.co.za/Chinese%20Kenpo.html

On the site it says:

Ming's hand writing and personal seal,

However what it says is
Shoto Tanemura 5th Generation Denjin Hakkesho,Sensei Sato Kinbei

Why is it so wrinkled if it is a Certificate?

I don't think it is Li Zi Ming's writing I think Sato Kinbei wrote this.

The site further goes into the whole grandmastership which is not true. Linerage holder fine But do not try to pass it off as Grandmaster when others have been trained in Bagua under Li Zi Ming and Wang shu Jin and those who have also 5th generation practicers who trained under Wang such as Kent Howard who by the way wrote a book on Wang and Vincent Black who Li Zi Ming appointed to represent the North American branch.
I am waiting for Mr. Black's email concerning if Li Zi Ming ever used the term Denjin when giving certificates I emailed Kent to check the Genbukan site and Jujutsu.com to give more information about Wang Shu Jin,Sato Kinbei and Shoto Tanemura to see if he can answer some of the questions concerning the training and if any certificates were issued.

 

[FudoshinDojo]

Hi "Jade",
Your questions are quite interesting indeed and I would not mind going through them point by point, however I will say that you seem to have your mind already made up.

I thought you were an extremely nice person when meeting you in real life, with that being said, I can't say that I agree with the way you are going about questioning. Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying asking questions are bad.

All of the instructors are going off of what Soke has either said or published or told them personally. I think most of the instructors you have spoken with have tried there best to answer you questions but have been insufficient for you(because they don't know), noone is trying to hide anything from you, I simply believe noone has the answers you want except for people inside of Japan withing the Genbukan or even Soke himself.

Might I suggest e-mailing Roy Ron Shihan, his e-mail can be obtained from the Genbukan website, I can assure you he will return your e-mail and answer your questions. Tanemura Soke is quite busy these days, so e-mailing honbu might not be the best route.

Once again, the manner in which you have gone about this, dare I say crusade, I can't agree with....there is nothing wrong with your questions, you have to just get to the people who really know and there even could be some "choice" on Soke's part to interpet things a certain way you know. Which would lead you to still maybe a difference in opinion, which is life.

Good luck in your Bagua training and in life in general.


sincerely,
Brian Hodges
Renshi
GWNBF/KJJR
Fudoshin Dojo-Cho

 

[Troy Wideman]

HI David,

If you left, why look back. I wish you luck.

Inregards to the baqua certificate, there were two types of scrolls, folded and rolled.
However, is your wife now translating chinese. I am curious, is your wife a professional translator? Look the english language has thousands of words and I do not profess to know or understand all of them. If you were in Japan, you would know that kanji can be read many different ways. It is also a skill that is being lost amongst the japanese. Martial kanji are even harder to read. Some of the scrolls possessed by Tanemura sensei get passed on around 8th dan and it takes months to translate. A professional translator can barely translate it.

Now your looking at a certificate and saying IMO it is not Li Zi Ming who wrote but Sato Kinbei. So you can magically determine and analyse kanji writing to determine if it is his. So I guess the stamp is forged as well. Come on!

Now as to the issue that the information is on a public forum and it is your right to know the answer. I respond to you, this is not the case. Why is it with the internet everyone thinks it is their right to information. Information is given, if it is asked in the right manner. If you approached a teacher and asked in the manner that you are asking, you would be thrown out. You should know this, and your wife should know this being japanese and how japanese manner works.

Again, I ask you. If you are no longer in the organization, what do you care. Go on with your life, go train with someone else.

Wish you luck.

Troy

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Brian

I don't think it is a crusade though it may appear as that maybe crusade to find answers certaintly not a crusade against Mr.Tanemura or the Genbukan.

I will email Mr.Ron concerning the matter. I will post his response as well as Mr.Black's and Mr. Howards so people can get a clearer picture of things. Again this is not a crusade or a fraud busting this is trying to get answers for not only myself but I am sure other people who are not so vocal would like to know as well.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Inregards to the baqua certificate, there were two types of scrolls, folded and rolled.

I only see the wrinkling one that Brian asked what it said. The site claims it comes from Li Zi Ming.

However, is your wife now translating chinese

Would you like me to present the Kanji Denjin? We can look at it and see what it translates as. We can have the same talk as me And George had.

You should know also that in Hanzi(Chinese writing) it sometimes means the same thing in Kanji examples are:
天 read as Ten in Japanese in Chinese read as Tian in Chinese same Kanji/Hanzi there are plenty of examples. George claimed Denjin is Japanese reading of another Kanji however when George presented the Hanzi it did not translate as Denjin.

If you were in Japan, you would know that kanji can be read many different ways. It is also a skill that is being lost amongst the japanese.

What you want to see my passport,pictures of me there? I know Kanji can be read different ways which is why I asked a native to look at the Kanji who came up with the same conclusion.
I really don't know what you mean that Japanese are losing the ability to read Kanji but ok.

Now your looking at a certificate and saying IMO it is not Li Zi Ming who wrote but Sato Kinbei. So you can magically determine and analyse kanji writing to determine if it is his. So I guess the stamp is forged as well. Come on!

IMO=In my opnion I do not see Li Zi Ming name The stamp I can not make out to well. Also you can clearly see it says Sato Kinbei so maybe Li Zi Ming stamped it but Maybe Sato Kinbei wrote it. Maybe if I saw more of it maybe I would see Li Zi Ming's name if you see it point it out then.

Now as to the issue that the information is on a public forum and it is your right to know the answer. I respond to you, this is not the case. Why is it with the internet everyone thinks it is their right to information. Information is given, if it is asked in the right manner

Claims are made not answering claims or making excuses or attacking the person for asking the claims shows 1.you don't know 2. you are trying to drive people away from asking these questions. All this info is placed on the internet if you do not want people asking these questions do not post
information on the internet.

If you approached a teacher and asked in the manner that you are asking, you would be thrown out.

Blind loyality and cultish sheepish like following have never been my fortake I question everything because in the world there is always someone who is trying to take advantage of you and if you think not then you have already been taken advantage of.

You should know this, and your wife should know this being japanese and how japanese manner works.

Ya but I am American so I do not need to swallow Japanese formality and being that this forum is in America nor does anyone else. You are right I could not ask Tanemura in his Dojo as a member but as an outsider of the organization then yes I can. Any attempt to not answer the question or accuse me of being rude or what not is a weak defense and in some cases may be seen as avoiding the issue which may be then be seen as something to hide.

Again, I ask you. If you are no longer in the organization, what do you care. Go on with your life, go train with someone else.

Again I answer you with why do you care I care so much? Do you want this to just go away is that why you always bring this up?
If you really do not know thats fine I can accept that but the only person who has made any impact on this discussion and whos explaination does make some sense is Chris Parker and even he seems to have questions as well.

 

[Kevin Geaslin]

You admit that you are "Western" in that you question everything about your teacher's credentials, even to the point of rudeness. Yes, it is healthy to make sure that your teacher is legitimate, but hardly anyone in the budo community has a better resume than Tanemura sensei. I don't know if you left the Genbukan under bad circumstances, and it's none of my business, but you seem to "have it in" for your former teacher and associates, even though I admit that you are professional and polite about it.

None of what you keep bringing up has any merit. You have consistently used the words "Genbukan" and "Disney" together, simply because our organization (yes, it is a business, even if we are just buying and selling old jujutsu techniques) has merchandise for sale on the website. We are thankful for this, because in "the old days" it took a long time to get books and training supplies from Japan. Thanks to the internet and Paypal I can get the new kyu or dan DVD and book I need in a week. Couldn't be happier with it.

You then raise issues about sensei resurrecting a long-dead ninja ryuha, mentioned in Tatara Magazine. I just dusted mine off and flipped through it, I see no mention of said dream sequence.

So then you dwell on the trivial matter of "grandmaster" versus "mastership", written in the first manual. I have both, and if it was an error in translation (there are many simple errors in translation), then it was fixed. The latest revised manual simply states "5th Denjin". Regardless, Sensei could claim Grandmastership if he desired, as he has full transmission and could make it Tanemura-ha Hakkesho.

As for use of the word, Mr. Kohler explained it in full detail, and provided a link for the Chinese word for which "Denjin" is based on. Anyone that has a history in traditional Japanese arts is familiar with the word. Even my friend that does Kyokushin karate and spend most of his time playing Virtua Fighter and Shenmue knows that Denjin and Meijin are commonly-used.

And with no disrespect to your family (I mean that, not a personal attack), you are basing some of this on your mother-in-laws opinion of Tanemura sensei? And if your wife is unfamiliar with some of the terms we use, that's to be expected. My Japanese teacher was born and raised in Japan and is unable to read some of Takamatsu sensei's gravestone because the kanji are, as he states, "what old people use".

So while I respect your diligence, it seems to some of us in the Genbukan that you are going beyond asking the simple routine questions, and simply looking for dirt. Good luck in your training.

Kevin Geaslin
Genbukan Ninpo & Kokusai Jujutsu

 

[yorkshirelad]

I can't understand why anyone would have a problem with an org selling baseball caps and t-shirts, every martial arts association does it. Tanemura sensei has spent a lifetime training and teaching, why shouldn't he make a profit. He also make his arts as accessible as possible, he should be commended for that. No-one here can deny that he is a legitimate Grandmaster.

The break between Hatsumi and Tanemura was obviously an event that has caused some hurt in Tanemura's case so I can understand that he wants to mention Hatsumi as little as possible when it comes to his training. All I can say is that any student who has Tanemura as a teacher should feel lucky to have such a knowledgable man and a genuine grandmaster of Takamatsuden as a teacher.

I enjoyed training with some BBD students in Dublin in the mid to late 1990s and have incorporated much of what I was taught in the martial arts that I teach. Learning from Hatsumi or Tanemura would be an honour.

When it comes down to it I say just train. If you don't like the org or the teacher you train under move on, but don't let someone's opinion on a forum stop you from checking out the training. From what I've seen of Tanemura on video/utube, he is extremely proficient, knowledgeable and likeable. Just my 2 cents.

Dom

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

You admit that you are "Western" in that you question everything about your teacher's credentials, even to the point of rudeness.

Tanemura is not my teacher. Yes I wil question anyone who makes claims and since the claims are published freely on the internet I will questioned them openly on the internet. I would do the same for anything that I have questions about this just happens to be the Genbukan nothing personal.

Yes, it is healthy to make sure that your teacher is legitimate, but hardly anyone in the budo community has a better resume than Tanemura sensei.

I questioned things that to me seem a little shakey that need better answers then the ones being given.

I don't know if you left the Genbukan under bad circumstances, and it's none of my business, but you seem to "have it in" for your former teacher and associates

I do not "have it in" for anyone but I would like the questions answered so far noone has explained how a Gendai created art can be called Koryu karate along with other questions.

None of what you keep bringing up has any merit.

Sure it does it is being open about what you do. Its about answering questions that are public domain on websites if you do not want people asking questions about your organization or your teacher then by all means do not put it on the web for people to see.

You have consistently used the words "Genbukan" and "Disney" together, simply because our organization (yes, it is a business, even if we are just buying and selling old jujutsu techniques) has merchandise for sale on the website.

I am talking about Hats,Tshirts,Towels I find it to be gimmicks and marketing like Disney vs other Koryu schools that do not advertise merchandise. It is odd to me and seems more of a way to cash in on people who are willing to buy it. But if there is a market why not and this is exactly Disney like business.

You then raise issues about sensei resurrecting a long-dead ninja ryuha, mentioned in Tatara Magazine. I just dusted mine off and flipped through it, I see no mention of said dream sequence.

Troy corrected it this was in the Bufu. My MISTAKE but it did happen.

So then you dwell on the trivial matter of "grandmaster" versus "mastership", written in the first manual. I have both, and if it was an error in translation (there are many simple errors in translation), then it was fixed

I don't know other sites still list it.But fair enough an error in translating I can go for that.

"5th Denjin". Regardless, Sensei could claim Grandmastership if he desired, as he has full transmission and could make it Tanemura-ha Hakkesho.

Well that would make it quite suspicious to go off and do that. I don't know if he has full transmission of Bagua from either Wang Shu Jin or Li Zi Ming because there is more than just the mother palms and 2 man sets so how much of Wang's and Ming's bagua has been transmitted I would like to know.
I know of Wang's Bagua consists of Linking form,Swiming dragon form,Animal form,Stake form does Mr.Tanemura practice all this?
Li Zi Ming practiced Liang style Bagua are you saying Mr.Tanemura inherited the Liang style from Li Zi Ming?

As for use of the word, Mr. Kohler explained it in full detail, and provided a link for the Chinese word for which "Denjin" is based on

And if you read the conversation the Kanji does not mean what he says.
Lets break it down then" Den=message Jin=person. It kinda of means like story teller,passing messenge from person to person. Like when a father tells his son a story and he becomes the next "Denjin" to tell the story. When I further pointed out Denjin is not in the Japanese Kanji dictionary George said it is a Chinese word and presented the Kanji but again this did not read as Denjin you can read the whole thread I posted it on this thread.

you are basing some of this on your mother-in-laws opinion of Tanemura sensei? And if your wife is unfamiliar with some of the terms we use

My mother-inlaw is the same age as Tanemura and spoke to him she said his mannerism is like a salesman. So yes what another Japanese thinks of anothers Japanese mannerism really does have weight on my opinion.

So while I respect your diligence, it seems to some of us in the Genbukan that you are going beyond asking the simple routine questions, and simply looking for dirt.

Do you have dirt you are trying to hide then?

 

[MJS]

ADMIN NOTE

***ATTENTION ALL USERS***

Please keep the thread at a respectful level. I'd also like to direct everyone to the forum rules, which can be found here, specifically section 4.16.

Mike Slosek
MT Asst. Admin

 

[MJS]

Thread Closed For Review.