A Uniquely Emasculating Experience

[Gordon Nore]

I'm glad I got to the top post on this page before replying.

If this car was purchased new, and you didn't add any oil during the time you owned it, and what you describe happened, and the dealer would seek a warranty replacement of the engine ...

I do all my oil changes on 5,000 mile intervals. And, so should you. But, a new vehicle is a new vehicle. And new engines should not seize.

It was a new purchase. Two oil changes in 18,000 km. My bad. I'm actually very conscientious about bringing the car in on schedule. However, this kind of damage seems odd. When they spoke me on Tuesday, they said they were just taking down the oil pan for inspection. Apparently, whatever they found would determine whether warranty would cover.

They did. I've been appropriately chastened by the service rep. I will never gamble on this again. And I have a new engine.

Anyhow, the little Hyundai Accent I rented is fun, and, yes, the Hyundai Canada provides virtually the same warranty available in the US. As I said before, they took real good care of me when the transmission died on my previous Elantra, a mini wagon, so I was expecting it would work out.

 

[Carol]

A small rant, similar thoughts to previous posts:

If all the Motor Oil and Oil Filter companies spend tens of millions of advertising dollars annually telling us guys how chemically superior their oil fluids are - or how brilliantly engineered their oil filters are, then please tell me why those same companies still say their products still have to be changed once every three thousand miles just like the crappy stuff we were using back in the 1970's?

Rant off/

:idunno: My 2004 Honda CR-V goes 10K in between oil changes, as per the owners manual.

 

[Carol]

It was a new purchase. Two oil changes in 18,000 km. My bad. I'm actually very conscientious about bringing the car in on schedule. However, this kind of damage seems odd. When they spoke me on Tuesday, they said they were just taking down the oil pan for inspection. Apparently, whatever they found would determine whether warranty would cover.

They did. I've been appropriately chastened by the service rep. I will never gamble on this again. And I have a new engine.

Anyhow, the little Hyundai Accent I rented is fun, and, yes, the Hyundai Canada provides virtually the same warranty available in the US. As I said before, they took real good care of me when the transmission died on my previous Elantra, a mini wagon, so I was expecting it would work out.

Two oil changes in 18,000 km/12,000 miles and the engine seized?

Very glad Hyundai paid for that. They should have.

 

[Rich Parsons]

My one-year-old car needs a new engine because I didn't keep up with oil changes.

On Thursday my son noticed a knocking sound that increased with the RPMs -- kind of like a playing card on a bicycle spoke. The car was really slow starting out in first. I was already scheduled for my two-months past due oil change today. Somehow, I deluded myself into believing that it was something minor. "Maybe it's the clutch," I told myself.

The sad part: My son, who has been driving less than a year, has been reminding me since July that I was supposed to go in for the oil change. He even offered to take the car in for me, but I kept putting it off. Since he and I are sharing the vehicle, while my wife uses our old mini wagon, we've put a lot more mileage on it than our previous cars.

I should have known.

Here's the rundown... I presented my problem to the man at the service counter a Hyundai today. I sat down in the waiting room. Ten minutes later, the service manager summoned me: "Mr Nore, leave your car and go home." The cost: $3000 to $4000 Canadian, and I can't count on the warranty to help me because I was neglectful of the service schedule.

The guy was explaining all this to me in front of about ten other guys who were picking up or dropping off their cars. It was very quiet, everyone with their heads bowed. I'm sure it looked like one those TV programs where they show videos of guys getting hit in the groin. You know how guys double-up when they see another guy get hit there? It was just like that.

I went home, made a big credit card, payment so I would be sure to have enough for a rental... for several days. My wife has taken the news quite well. My son seems to understand the unique feeling stupidity that I'm experiencing.

What manufacturer?

How many miles in one year?

The reason why I ask is that Toyota is currently having issues with Sludge and there are some leagal actions in the States over it. Kia also has some issue, but it has not been enough to cause the level of legal actions.

Most car companies owners manuals do not have 3,000 miles as the recommended change. It can be as high as 11,500 or so on some vehicles. This is without synthetics. Synthetics would go longer unless they are being used under extreme conditions.

 

[Gordon Nore]

What manufacturer?

How many miles in one year?

2006 Hyundai Elantra GT five door
Purchased August 2006
18,000 km on the odometer (just over 11,000 miles I think)

As I mentioned earlier, they were going to talk to Warranty after they took down the oil pan. Kia is a division of Hyundai, if I recall correctly. There could well be a problem, and perhaps my dealer leaning on owners to follow the service schedule to the letter. Like I said, they took care of me, and I won't take a chance with the schedule again.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Mate, thats madness. If you've changed oil twice in 6000 miles that should be fine. As long as it's topped up ok.

Knocking eh? Make sure you let us know exactly what they say the knock was...

 

[Gordon Nore]

Knocking eh? Make sure you let us know exactly what they say the knock was...

They said the engine was shot and are putting in a new one.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Define shot though, it was obviously running!

 

[Gordon Nore]

Define shot though, it was obviously running!

I'll get back to you on that the next time I talk to them. To be honest, they could have showed me the engine, I wouldn't know the difference. I only do gas, oil, air, windshield fluid. Everything else to do with cars is a mystery to me.

 

[rutherford]

I'm firmly with the "you got hosed" group.

And, I don't think you should take it. If the engine went this early, it's due to manufacturer's defect and has nothing to do with your maintenance.

 

[Rich Parsons]

2006 Hyundai Elantra GT five door
Purchased August 2006
18,000 km on the odometer (just over 11,000 miles I think)

As I mentioned earlier, they were going to talk to Warranty after they took down the oil pan. Kia is a division of Hyundai, if I recall correctly. There could well be a problem, and perhaps my dealer leaning on owners to follow the service schedule to the letter. Like I said, they took care of me, and I won't take a chance with the schedule again.

Here are a few links form a quick Google search:

http://www.texas-cars-and-dealerships.com/engine-oil-sludge-gel.html

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/hyundai_sludge.html

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/hyundai_engine_failure.html

http://www.lawcash.com/attorney/4968/toyota-motor-sales-usa-lawsuit.asp

http://www.schleeter.com/oil-sludge.htm

 

[FieldDiscipline]

I'll get back to you on that the next time I talk to them. To be honest, they could have showed me the engine, I wouldn't know the difference. I only do gas, oil, air, windshield fluid. Everything else to do with cars is a mystery to me.

As long as it's fixed without charge, I suppose that's the main thing. Would be very interested to know though. Definately make sure you make clear that its not your fault and a defect.

 

[OUMoose]

A small rant, similar thoughts to previous posts:

If all the Motor Oil and Oil Filter companies spend tens of millions of advertising dollars annually telling us guys how chemically superior their oil fluids are - or how brilliantly engineered their oil filters are, then please tell me why those same companies still say their products still have to be changed once every three thousand miles just like the crappy stuff we were using back in the 1970's?

Rant off/

A guy I work with drives a Durango with full synthetic in the engine, tranny, and rear end. According to him, after 7500 miles, he changes the oil filter, and goes another 7500 before changing the oil. Says it comes out as clean as it went in. braver man than I am, but I guess it works.

 

[Bigshadow]

I agree with everyone, the over due oil change sounds bogus. There is something amiss here. Short of being out of oil, or the oil pick up being clogged, I cannot see how old oil would have caused that kind of damage.

 

[Gordon Nore]

I'm firmly with the "you got hosed" group.

And, I don't think you should take it. If the engine went this early, it's due to manufacturer's defect and has nothing to do with your maintenance.

Warranty office has already agreed to cover the costs -- so I do suspect a problem at their end that they would rather not discuss. As long as they're paying for it, they can tell me whatever.

 

[Senjojutsu]

Hello all,

When I wrote my little rant I realize someone could bring up the issue of synthetic oil, and how those new type oils have increased the time duration between changes.

Also please realize I tend to use those “franchised grease monkey places” for my oil changes. With a coupon it is not that much more expensive than using dealers and is more time convenient. Although these places try to sell you the world of other services while you are waiting in the lobby. Just say NO.

…and those franchises always want you back three thousand miles later per their window sticky and not per car manufacturer's guidelines.

That after I have read all the oil company marketing brochures in the lobby about how great the oil is that just got put into my engine.

 

[Rich Parsons]

If it was made into a commercial it must be correct? Right ?

Just a radio ad that mentions the Sludge issue with Toyota

 

[Rich Parsons]

An article about the Toyota Recalls last year:

Roger Simmermaker is the author of How Americans Can Buy American: The Power of Consumer Patriotism. He also writes "Buy American Mention of the Week"
---------------
Thunder on the Tundra: Toyota Trucks Ahead in 2007 Recalls

If you've merely done a moderate amount of Internet surfing or cracked open a newspaper lately - just about any newspaper - you've undoubtedly seen the news that Toyota has once again passed Ford in worldwide auto sales and may pass GM sometime this year.


But what you may not have seen is that Toyota has already passed both Ford and GM in a differ end category - automotive recalls.

Although we've barely passed mid-February, Toyota has already recalled! 533,417 vehicles this year in a mix that, according to www.AutoRecalls.us, includes Tundras Sequoias and Camry’s. That puts Toyota on track to recall more than the over 1.76 million autos they recalled in the U.S. and Japan in 2006, and the 2.2 million they recalled in 2005 when they recalled more cars than they built.

What's more, the current recall related to the Turdra trucks and Sequioa SUVs is similar to the same defect in 800,000 of the same vehicles in 2005.
Maybe somebody at Toyota isn't paying attention?

Hopefully the American consumers are. Recall numbers by domestic companies (GM and Ford) so far this year are as follows: Ford, 128,163; Chevrolet, 4,829; and Pontiac, 1,602. Chrysler - a German company masquerading as an American company with plans to start importing cars from China in 2008 - has recalled 77,432 vehicles so far in 2007.

To be sure, high recall numbers are not good. Auto companies would much rather prefer high sales numbers instead. As I've already mentioned, the media is abuzz that GM may lose its crown this year to Toyota in worldwide auto sales. But for that to ever happen in the U.S. sales category, it's going to take several more years since GM has a U.S. market share of 24.3 % compared to 15.4% for Toyota. Even Ford, despite their recent troubles, has a higher domestic market share than Toyota at 17.5%.

But if GM loses their worldwide crown this year, it may actually turn out to be a blessing in disguise. Here's why:

First, GM spent 17% less per vehicle this January compared to last January, which means they are more profitable on a per-unit basis. In fact, GM expects to report a profit for the most recent quarter.

Second, it may be good for GM to step aside temporarily, for now, and let Toyota take all the ammunition that is always aimed at the top dog of the industry so there is less pressure and fewer distractions. And when GM combines their more-solid profitability and their improved quality together, their public perception will also improve.

Then they can use these admirable qualities to prepare to surge back on top at the precise time Toyota is in the top slot with their recall surge in the news. Toyota's timing at being number one worldwide would create further skepticism about whether they really deserve their reputation for untarnished quality.

According to Business Week's January 22, 2007 issue, Toyota has recalled 9.3 million vehicles in the last three years, which is nearly four times the number of recalls in the three year period prior to 2004.

Other recent news that won't sit well with a Camry-conscious public is the class-action lawsuit recently settled by Toyota regarding ruinous oil sludge buildup
covering 3.5 million Toyota and Lexus (yes, Lexus) vehicles.

Optimistic statements by Toyota executives aren't going to cut it for long - part icularly when they don't match well with reality. Denia l in the Camry-company camp seems to be setting in. Toyota's North American president Jim Press recently disputed the suggestion that his company no longer enjoys a large lead in reliability over the American competition. Speculating on the thoughts of American car company well-wishers while speaking at the recent Chicago Auto Show,
Press said "I think there's some hope that the gap in quality is closing, but it really isn't."
Oh, really? That's a pretty strong comment considering Toyota recalled 1.27 million vehicles in one swoop in 2005, recording the biggest-ever recall in history for a Japanese car company.

But, recalls notwithstanding, the evidence that the quality gap is closing is pretty indisputable, and the evidence has been piling up for more than just the last couple of years. With the following facts, you can make your argument for American car quality fully bulletproof - ev en among your most ardent foreign car-defending friends.

* A February 10, 2003 Business Week told of how undeniable it was that GM cars are better built than they used to be. The article cited an improved J.D. Power quality ranking and a Consumer Reports recommendation for 13 of GM's vehicles (equal to 41% of their sales volume) compared to just five recommended GM vehicles for the previous y ear. The Chevy Impala beat the Camry in a quality survey, and Buick beat BMW.

* Business Week also reported September 23, 2003 that GM boosted its productivity 23% in six years while Toyota's productivity remained flat, and that GM's most-productive factories now beat Toyota's most-productive factories.

* A 2004 Consumer Reports ranking selected the Buick Regal as the most reliable among family sedans, beating the Toyota Camry, Honda Accord and Nissan Maxima. They also gave recommended ratings for four Ford m odels, including the Ford Focus.

* J.D. Power and Associates awarded Cadillac's LansingGrand River assembly center its highest honor - the Gold Plant Quality Award - in 2004.

* An August 4, 2004 Wall Street Journal article said Toyota's lead in quality and reliability has narrowed in some segments and disappeared in others. Quality problems were reportedly "mushrooming."

* The < /FONT>Toyota Camry hasn't been awarded the best in its segment since the year 2000, but many Americans continue to regard it as the number one model in terms of quality. Toyota's Kentucky Camry plant was awarded with high initial quality rankings by J.D. Power from the late 1980s through the 1990s, but it plummeted to number 26 in 2002, improving to only number 14 in 2004, while two GM factories and one Ford factory took the top three spots that year.

* In a J.D. Power Initial Quality Survey of new 2004 cars, Chevy placed second behind Honda and Toyota< FONT face=Arial color=red size=2> sank to number three.

* As far back as at least 2003, Business Week has reported that American consumers regard certain foreign cars as better built than American cars, even when facts prove otherwise.

* Fast-forwarding to 2006, J.D. Power shows Mercury, Buick and Cadillac beat Toyota in a list of dependable cars. Two Buicks and a Mercury took the top three midsize car awards; Mercury, Ford and Buick took the top three large car awards; Ford took the midsize van award and the midsize truck award; and GMC and Cadillac took the large MAV (multi-purpose activity vehicle) and large premium MAV awards, respectively.

* In an article about trust issues, Business Week's December 11, 2006 issue stated "GM's quality nearly equals Toyota's." Perceived quality among the American public is another story, however. The difference between the actual quality of American cars and the perceived quality of Ame rican cars is the "perception gap."

* In the same article, J.D. Power's director for retail research said "Actual quality is so close." discussing the quality ran kings of GMC, Chevrolet and Cadillac placing them on par with both Honda and Toyota.

* And most recently, of course, the Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan beat the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry according to Consumer Reports.
What's needed among automotive senior executives, and much of the media as well, is a return to intellectual honesty. Everyone tends to have their favorites and biases (mine are pretty obvious) but I pride myself in sticking with the facts to back up my comments.

When Toyotas North American president says that the quality gap isn't really closing, he's not being intellectually honest.
Some editorial writers aren't either. When Douglas Brinkley trumpeted Indiana's success in a Wall Street Journal article last year for attracting a Honda plant to their state - even though it took $ 140 million in tax credits and incentives - he wasn't what you would call "intellectually honest." In an apparent attempt to convince the reader that Honda doesn't send any automobiles to the U.S. from outside the country, he said the
following: "Turning farm fields into factories, that's what Henry Ford used to do. Today, in the heartland, it's being done by Honda - a company that doesn't manufacture imports but builds American-made cars."

Such statements lead the reader to think that some Japanese companies make all of their cars in the USA. Hardly. In fact, according to a January 8,
2007 Wall Street Journal article, the NAP ratio - a ratio that compares how many cars are built in North America vs. the number of cars imported - is slippin g for Toyota. And according to Toyota internal documentation, the ratio is going to worsen next year.

Occasionally I'll find an editorial writer that dares to step away from the foreign biases of others in the same industry and rate cars objectively, rather than relying on the mindset of the question "will American cars ever match the Japanese cars in quality?"

Editorial Director for Consumer Guide Automotive Mark B ilek departed from the typical mindset of his colleagues back in June of 2005 by declaring that the Ford Five Hundred was the best car he'd ever driven.

That's good news for Ford, since the Five Hundred is being renamed the Taurus and will get several more second-looks because of the Taurus' higher name recognition. Billek said he judged the Five Hundred based on "what it is" and how well it "fulfills its mission." Based on this, his opinion was that the Five Hundred was "simply the best full-size sedan sold in America."

I am confident, however, that people like Toyota's Jim Press can be somewhat honest in their statements about the competition from time to time. He did say that the "car of the show" at the Detroit Auto Show in January was, for him, none other than the Chevy Malibu. Maybe there's hope for intellectual honesty after all.

Roger Simmermaker is the author of How Americans Can Buy American: The Power of Consumer Patriotism. He also writes "Buy American Mention of the Week"