a serious question for all

[Brandon Fisher]

I have a question for everyone. If you have an instructor whether they are asian or not and no matter how loyal or how long you have been with them. Do you do whatever and I mean whatever they say without question? Do you allow them to beat you to the point your body is black from the severe buising and then get up in the morning and thank them for it?

If you have an instructor who is not sensitive to a health problem even if it was something you have had since birth and they tell you to do something but you physically can’t do you ask them for help?

Things have happened in the past 24 hours that made me think about this and wonder what others thought.

 

[mantis]

I have a question for everyone. If you have an instructor whether they are asian or not and no matter how loyal or how long you have been with them. Do you do whatever and I mean whatever they say without question? Do you allow them to beat you to the point your body is black from the severe buising and then get up in the morning and thank them for it?

If you have an instructor who is not sensitive to a health problem even if it was something you have had since birth and they tell you to do something but you physically can’t do you ask them for help?

Things have happened in the past 24 hours that made me think about this and wonder what others thought.

depends on the person
if i realize the instructor is aware of what he's doing then i will let him do whatevers. But if he just doesnt care then heck no. no way i'll let him come near me.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

So you would let him a instructor mistreat you or not be sensitive to something if you thought he was trying to make you better?

 

[Wild Bill]

That type of behavior is unaceptable. If someone treated me that way they had better have the skill to back up their rank because they will need it.

There is a big difference between hard training and abuse. My instructor trains me hard. Sometimes I end up taking a few days off to let my body heal. At the same time he makes allowances for my bad back. He understands that sometimes I just can't perform and that if I am injured and can't train I will not be able progress in a proper way.

Take away the martial arts aspect of it. Do you let people treat you like that in daily life? I sure as hell wouldn't take that crap. It is sounds like abuse the way you discribe it. I would have to question the mental state of both a teacher who acts that way and a student that would take it. As a person who has used the services of a therapist I would like to advocate it. A person's mental health is just as important as their physical health. Most people could benefit from a check up now and then.

 

[mantis]

So you would let him a instructor mistreat you or not be sensitive to something if you thought he was trying to make you better?

no.
but i certainly let my instructor operate on me when he wants to demonstrate something. sometimes he actually does hurt me (or anyone in that position)
i wouldnt let him do anything that's not related to class.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Wild Bill,
You pretty much have summed it up.

Mantis,
Thats what I was hoping you meant. I am the first one to offer to uki for someone higher than me and sometime lower then me.

Ok let me add a little more to this.

I was excused from a organziation that I had spent 21 years and 4 months in based on some documents that I was unable to see. I was born totally blind and was blind until I was 3 years old because of a pitched nerve in my neck. I am legally blind and have had the benefit of the Cleveland Sight Center and the Society for the Blind in Indianapolis. My wife who was born with a rare birth defect that was just recently discovered do to her becoming very dizzy very quickly and at anytime. This to was a source of the problem with this person. I was told by this man that it was not a case that I could not see it but that I didn't want to. So to me that was saying I didn't have a sight problem I was just making it up. Same thing with my wife and dizzyness its a made up thing she is faking. It is just fear.

The reason I used the beating part is because I was told by a 6th dan tang soo do practioner that there is no "no sir" to senior ranks in the martial arts under any circumstances. He was beaten to the point where his whole chest was black from the bruising and also thrown 10 feet across the room by his instructor. The thing that boggles my mind is he thanked the man for it. He believes that makes him a better martial artist and feels as though by me asking my old instructor for help with these documents that he purposely printed in 8pt font that it was my responsibility to fix it. He said because I didn't do that and I asked for help I am not a true martial artist.

 

[Carol]

I would say no...I have not always done everything my instructor has said. He does push everybody hard. I don't think he would ever deliberately mistreat anyone. If he did...whether it was me or anyone else, I'd be finding another school. That's not the experience I'm looking for personally.

I can think of once when I sat out a drill because I was injured. He seemed very disappointed. When I told him that it hurt too much to do the drill, he lightened up and gave me an alternative series of movements to do....things I could do without aggrevating my injury. That was also FAR better than the humiliation of not being able to keep up with one's class.

My instructor is tough...sometmes he runs the class like a drill sergeant in terms of his physical demands. I've never seen him ask for something unacceptable. Perhaps unattainable (from my perspective) perhaps unpleasant (in terms of exertiion) but certainly not worse than that.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I agree with working hard. My sensei in Indiana worked us very hard and we took our knocks thats for sure. Never did he intentionally do something that have us injured or make us feel like we were being abused. This group that has sided with my old instructor one won't let his students quit when they want to or if they want to, the other demands that he be called master at all times, another one is a pedofile, and my old instructor who makes people think he is gods gift to martial arts and he can do whatever he wants because he is the "soke".

 

[Wild Bill]

The reason I used the beating part is because I was told by a 6th dan tang soo do practioner that there is no "no sir" to senior ranks in the martial arts under any circumstances. He was beaten to the point where his whole chest was black from the bruising and also thrown 10 feet across the room by his instructor. The thing that boggles my mind is he thanked the man for it. He believes that makes him a better martial artist and feels as though by me asking my old instructor for help with these documents that he purposely printed in 8pt font that it was my responsibility to fix it. He said because I didn't do that and I asked for help I am not a true martial artist.

There is a differance between being an uki and being beaten. If an instructor beat me black and blue for disobeying him I would leave the school at the very least. I might involve the police and/or a lawyer. I might involve a ski mask and a crowbar.

It sounds like a lot of cult behavior to me.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Even if it was done in the context of Kumite or as an uki isn't there that line that you just don't cross. I also thought so anyway.

What about mental abuse?

 

[Swordlady]

The reason I used the beating part is because I was told by a 6th dan tang soo do practioner that there is no "no sir" to senior ranks in the martial arts under any circumstances.

I bolded and italicized one section of your post for emphasis. That mentality alone is disturbing. Pretty much gives the head instructor license to do whatever he wants with his students - and sadly, some will cross certain lines that should not be crossed with that kind of thinking.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Yep I agree. It is a control issue. I always felt that the martial arts was has much a lifestyle as it is a fighting style. I do not deman my students call me master in fact I dislike it very much. I feel if I have done right by them they will call me Sensei on their own. It is not something I feel can be demanded. I feel it is something that is earned.

Thanks for all the comments so far. I greatly appreciate the feedback and the understanding.

 

[swiftpete]

The thing is with the document thing, he may well have just been totally unfeeling and ignorant about the whole thing and was being an idiot. But maybe he believes in positive mental attitude and thought by being that way and saying his; 'You can see it if you want to, don't be afraid to see' comments (or however he phrased it) he was helping!
I'm not saying they were definitely his thoughts but it's a possibility, he may have been trying to help, just in a misinformed way.

Personally as well, I always make a point of thanking my instructor after each class even though sometimes I've had the crap beaten out of me. My non MA friends think it's crazy sometimes when they see my bruises but thats the way it goes if you train i personally think. Of course in your example the individuals involved may be bullies but they may just enjoy very hard training.

I can't see why anyone would think that asking for help would mean you're not a true martial artist though, unless you're a machine, sometimes everyone needs help with something.

 

[SilatFan]

This group that has sided with my old instructor one won't let his students quit when they want to or if they want to, the other demands that he be called master at all times, another one is a pedofile, and my old instructor who makes people think he is gods gift to martial arts and he can do whatever he wants because he is the "soke".

This combined with some of your previous statements would tell me all that I would need to know about this group. The expectation that you outlined before about ALWAYS doing just as your instructor said is totally based on a need to control (which you've also talked about).

This attitude while not all encompassing is really prevalent in TMAs. Which is funny when you consider that it’s not so formal in many schools found overseas that are teaching the same TMAs. In fact I found it shocking to see how much more of this behavior is in "traditional" arts but not nearly as common in arts like BJJ and the RMA which are supposedly not traditional. Sorry, certainly don’t need to turn this into a "TMA vs non-TMA" discussion.

Get away and stay away from these "people." You’re better off without them. There are always good instructors in your art or other methods to learn and grow from. Even if it’s a burden finding and traveling to them you’re better off doing so than staying with the group you have described.

 

[Makalakumu]

It sounds as if you've come across a martial cult. Don't get involved with those types, they aren't safe, and its not healthy. IMO that TSD 6th dan is wrong. "No Sir" always exists and if someone insists that it doesn't, you should walk right out the door.

There are too many people, in this country, who are using MA as a power trip. Find a place where instructors make mistakes, everyone laughs, and everyone is free to ask questions.

The bottom line is that hard training requires trust. In fact, the harder the training, the more you MUST trust your teacher. How can you trust someone you can't even question? IMO, you can't. The people that you are describing are the people that are going to hurt someone really badly. Don't let it be you or anyone you know.

 

[Kacey]

I have to agree with the general consensus. It's one thing if your instructor is trying to push you beyond what you see as your limits - that's what an instructor (or personal trainer, or professor, etc) is supposed to do. It's something else if the person is ignoring known physical limitations - for example, I have a student who had to have back surgery, and could not twist his torso past a certain point; we found ways to modify techniques so he could do them safely, or found alternate techniques - there was no way I was going to let his passion for becoming a black belt (which he has since done) cause him to reinjure his back by requiring him to perform exactly like someone without a back injury. Given that he does not accept the limitations on your sight or your wife's dizziness, and does not make even reasonable allowances for them (8 point font gets hard for anyone to read - not just you) points to cause for concern, and leaves all of his students open to injury, and himself to liability.

I have known other instructors like this, and they tend to cause good people to leave - years ago, when I was a color belt, there was a very good red belt in our class, getting ready to test for black belt, which required visiting other classes and getting signatures from other instructors stating that the student was ready - the red belt had a club foot (a birth defect) and was physically unable to perform some techniques correctly, as his foot just did not go that way (although he could do them with the other foot just fine, proving he knew how) - one instructor not only would not sign his form, but was so negative about it that this gentleman quit in despair. I see this as being somewhat similar to your situation - it sounds like you, as this man did, have done everything and more that could be expected, and still it is not enough - no matter that you have no control over it. That your instructor expects more smacks of egomania, at best.

As to the second part, in which you say "The reason I used the beating part is because I was told by a 6th dan tang soo do practioner that there is no "no sir" to senior ranks in the martial arts under any circumstances" I find that to be totally unacceptable. Anyone who thinks that no one can say no, for any reason, has gone beyond the bounds of common sense into believing him or herself infallible - and that's not possible.

My instructor is a 6th dan in TKD - and I can't imagine that statement coming from him, nor from his instructor, who is an 8th dan. And I have said 'no' to them both, as the occasion warranted - and they expect me to; they consider part of the job as instructors to build people up, not to make uncomplaining robots out of them. Would I say no for small, petty reasons? No - because both of these men have long since earned my respect, as have the other seniors in my organization... especially compared to some of the seniors in the organization we used to belong to, who too nearly resemble the instructor you're speaking about.

Is there a specific right or wrong answer to this? For myself, I think there is - after much thought and consideration, I would leave - but only you can decide what is best for you and your family. Good luck to you.

 

[MJS]

I have a question for everyone. If you have an instructor whether they are asian or not and no matter how loyal or how long you have been with them. Do you do whatever and I mean whatever they say without question? Do you allow them to beat you to the point your body is black from the severe buising and then get up in the morning and thank them for it?

If you have an instructor who is not sensitive to a health problem even if it was something you have had since birth and they tell you to do something but you physically can’t do you ask them for help?

Things have happened in the past 24 hours that made me think about this and wonder what others thought.

Brandon,

Fortunately, during the years of my training, I haven't come across an instructor yet, that abused me in the way that you mention, ie: leaving large black and blue marks, not caring for the wellbeing of the students, etc. Yes, I have had my share of cuts, bumps and bruises, but it appears to me, that the instructor that you speak of, does not give a damn about his students! Yes, I like a hard workout and I certainly understand taking some lumps is part of it, but within reason! I'd be out the door faster than I walked in if I was training under someone like that! I've been the 'uke' many times, and again, while the demo was done hard I didn't walk away feeling like I was the punching bag for the day.

My safety and well being is first and foremost in any training that I do! If I'm asked to do something that I feel is not in my best interest or is going to put my well being in danger, I personally don't care how traditional the training is, again, I'd walk out the door faster than I walked in.

Mike

 

[Grenadier]

If you have an instructor whether they are asian or not and no matter how loyal or how long you have been with them. Do you do whatever and I mean whatever they say without question? Do you allow them to beat you to the point your body is black from the severe buising and then get up in the morning and thank them for it?

There's a difference between having faith in your instructor, and not questioning valid teachings, versus putting blind trust in an abusive one.

I'll work drills with the chief instructor when he teaches some of the classes, since I can take falls, and have conditioned the body to take some decent shots (or at least I hope!). When he demonstrates a technique to the class, I know I'm going to get thumped a good bit for one or two hits, but that's where it ends. He would never be out to deliberately injure me, and if that ever became the case, I would go elsewhere. I trust him, that he's certainly going to make sure the class knows that he'll make decent contact, but at the same time, that the class understands that I'm not going to double over in pain.

If I spar with my fellow instructors, we're going to thump each other. This is, after all, Karate, and not kite-flying (no offense to those who fly kites). We are not, however, trying to deliberately injure each other.

I understand that some systems are going to be harder on the body than others. That's fine, even up to the point of full contact, provided that it's done with control. Different strokes for different folks indeed, but again, there's a matter of control.

For example, I can certainly understand if one of the Kyokushin-Kai end up with bruised bodies from sparring with instructors and clamor for more, but even then, the instructors know when enough is enough. While they are certainly there to push you harder, make you sweat a lot, and to trade some good hard shots with each other, they are NOT there to pound you to a pulp.

If you have an instructor who is not sensitive to a health problem even if it was something you have had since birth and they tell you to do something but you physically can’t do you ask them for help?

Yes. You ask. Good instructors will have alternate paths available for those who physically cannot perform certain techniques. For example, one of the students in the dojo has terrible flexibility, and to make him kick someone in the head would be more dangerous to him, than the target. I've coached him in his kumite tactics, and he relies primarily on hand techniques, as well as foot sweeps. Nothing fancy, but he can more than hold his own, even against some of the more flexible folks.

The martial arts is not about meeting absolute standards. It's about the improvement of one's self, and having someone learn an alternate method is certainly going to be an improvement over trying to do something physically impossible for one's capabilities, assuming that one is sure about not being able to do it.

Things have happened in the past 24 hours that made me think about this and wonder what others thought.

I know this is a tough question, but do you really see it as faith and loyalty, or abuse?

 

[chinto01]

I have a question for everyone. If you have an instructor whether they are asian or not and no matter how loyal or how long you have been with them. Do you do whatever and I mean whatever they say without question? Do you allow them to beat you to the point your body is black from the severe buising and then get up in the morning and thank them for it?

If you have an instructor who is not sensitive to a health problem even if it was something you have had since birth and they tell you to do something but you physically can’t do you ask them for help?

Things have happened in the past 24 hours that made me think about this and wonder what others thought.

I would consider myself very loyal to my instructor however if he ever asked me to do something that was against the law or just plain wrong I would tell him so and not do what he asked. As far as the beatings and the insensitivity to the health problems well that is another thing all together and needs to be discussed with the instructor. People do not go to class to walk out severly beaten or bruised. Bruises are to be expected from time to time. Sounds to me like you have some thinking to do.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[michaeledward]

I would never go back.
I would never give this person another penny.
I would tell as many people as possible about the bad experiences. I think it is important to be as objective as possible, so as to not give the impression of a grudge. But don't keep this to yourself. Tell other people who are thinking about studying martial arts. Tell your friends. Tell your neighbors. A little bad press goes a long way.