New students and technical differences

[Kacey]

What do you do, as an instructor, if you have a new student arrive with a rank in your style, but from a class/club/association that has, for whatever reason, gone it's own way long enough ago that there are significant technical differences - for example, stances are different, patterns are done differently, preliminary/preparatory motions are different, trajectories are different, etc? Do you accept the student's rank, but require them to change the technical details to match your own organization? Do you make them start over, but let them move faster? Does it matter what rank they are when they arrive at your class?

As a student, how much are you willing to modify what you've learned in the past in the above situation? If the instructor said you had to relearn techniques you'd practiced for years, what would you do? What if the instructor required you to start at a lower rank? What if you wanted to start at a lower rank so you could make the technical changes, and the instructor didn't want you to?

 

[Ping898]

In my opinon, you are there to learn from who your current instructor is, if they do things differently, then at least in class you do things differently, else find some place else to learn.

 

[IWishToLearn]

I've restarted over at white voluntarily (and with some measure of reticence from my TKD teacher) three times now, and I'm looking forward to a fourth.

As a teacher I start everyone at white. I also teach with three different levels of curriculum - I teach the IKCA curriculum, the Yasashii Do Martial Arts curriculum, and I teach my own interpretation of everything I've trained in for the last decade.

Having said that, if someone from another IKCA school shows up, they wear whatever rank the IKCA has granted them. If I'm sponsoring them for rank, they might be right where they need to be, or if I feel they're not, they'll have to shore up and tighten up anything I'm not satisfied with before moving on.

 

[kidswarrior]

Great questions, Kacey! :asian:

Do you accept the student's rank, but require them to change the technical details to match your own organization?

Possibly, but more likely they'd take a hit of a couple of belt levels and have to match my requirements (not for my ego, but so I'd have confidence in their ability to handle dangerous situations).

Do you make them start over, but let them move faster?

Very likely, especially for someone with a year or less in the art. If closer to BB, then see my first answer.

As a student, how much are you willing to modify what you've learned in the past in the above situation?

Not exactly the same situation, but have started at white in four different arts in my time. But that was in my 40s, when I was still a youngster. Now, no way.

 

[jdinca]

It really depends on the student and how different what they learned is. We've had a number of students transfer recently from another school that teaches our system but misses a lot of the underlying concepts and details.

Several of them were younger folks who were brown belts and instructors at the other school. They've started over at the beginning but were "fast tracked" to get them up to speed and to give them the information they didn't have. I don't remember exactly but after 4 months I think that they now wear the rank of blue belt.

Another student from the same school was a purple belt but started over at white and after 9 months, is now up to advanced orange. She moves better and understands much more than she did.

 

[Steel Tiger]

An interesting situation. I teach an internal Chinese which has less structure than a lot of other arts. As a result new students tend to fit in without too much difficulty. Our forms and techniques have a broader range of correctness which allows variations in technical aspects to be assimilated quite easily. Of course, teaching bagua, most people coming to me have no knowledge of it or anything remotely similar so they have no problem starting at the beginning.

 

[Rich Parsons]

What do you do, as an instructor, if you have a new student arrive with a rank in your style, but from a class/club/association that has, for whatever reason, gone it's own way long enough ago that there are significant technical differences - for example, stances are different, patterns are done differently, preliminary/preparatory motions are different, trajectories are different, etc? Do you accept the student's rank, but require them to change the technical details to match your own organization? Do you make them start over, but let them move faster? Does it matter what rank they are when they arrive at your class?

As a student, how much are you willing to modify what you've learned in the past in the above situation? If the instructor said you had to relearn techniques you'd practiced for years, what would you do? What if the instructor required you to start at a lower rank? What if you wanted to start at a lower rank so you could make the technical changes, and the instructor didn't want you to?

I have those walk into our school and want to wear their rank. With those that are in their 40's and 50's, I have no problem with them wearing their black from the same system. Although those that did stay, took it off and asked to wear a white to learn how we did it or to meet the schools requirements.

If the differences are minor. i.e. a different hand position on one or two moves in a form, or consistent across all forms it could be corrected for the teaching aspect. So the rank could be worn. If the differences are great or drastic then the person should wear the starting belt or no belt and test for their rank. If a double promotion occurs I see nothing wrong with this. As the person has some skil sets in the same art and or organization or school network.

Personally, I would wear white. Although, this may cause issues for some as well, as some think then you are sand bagging to pick on the other white belts. Just be honest/humble and state I have rank in another system, but prefer to start from the beginning.

 

[MBuzzy]

I'm actually facing a similar situation. So far, I have started over at white 3 times in the same style. I have been in contact with the instructor of the school that I've transferring to, and he intends to honor my current rank. I also have the list of his testing requirements.....and I have a lot to learn.

I'm not sure if I would rather start over or not. But I definately would not want to start over again at white and go at the same speed as everyone else. I probably know 70% of the material, but the rest is just school differences. I know other things that they do not require as well.

As a student, I plan to adapt what I have learned to whatever my instructor teaches. I am there to learn from him, the more I learn, the better, even if there are minor differences.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I'm actually facing a similar situation. So far, I have started over at white 3 times in the same style. I have been in contact with the instructor of the school that I've transferring to, and he intends to honor my current rank. I also have the list of his testing requirements.....and I have a lot to learn.

I'm not sure if I would rather start over or not. But I definately would not want to start over again at white and go at the same speed as everyone else. I probably know 70% of the material, but the rest is just school differences. I know other things that they do not require as well.

As a student, I plan to adapt what I have learned to whatever my instructor teaches. I am there to learn from him, the more I learn, the better, even if there are minor differences.

If you are truly sure you know 70% of the material one would think you would start at the point where 70% of the material is known. From my point of view, you know this much stuff plus you have additional knowledge that might be beneficial at some later date. Perhaps my view of the situation is somewhat more fluid than it should be, but I like a student to learn what I am teaching without destroying or complicating anything he already knows. That just feels like a backwards step for the student, unless what he knows is seriously flawed.

 

[Adept]

I really think this is a false dilemma. Without artificial ranking and belt structures, this problem would not exist, indicating that the problem is not to do with the students or the technique, but the technicalities of ranking structures.

If everyone just wore tracksuit pants and a t-shirt, life would be a lot easier.

 

[jks9199]

What do you do, as an instructor, if you have a new student arrive with a rank in your style, but from a class/club/association that has, for whatever reason, gone it's own way long enough ago that there are significant technical differences - for example, stances are different, patterns are done differently, preliminary/preparatory motions are different, trajectories are different, etc? Do you accept the student's rank, but require them to change the technical details to match your own organization? Do you make them start over, but let them move faster? Does it matter what rank they are when they arrive at your class?

As a student, how much are you willing to modify what you've learned in the past in the above situation? If the instructor said you had to relearn techniques you'd practiced for years, what would you do? What if the instructor required you to start at a lower rank? What if you wanted to start at a lower rank so you could make the technical changes, and the instructor didn't want you to?

I've run into similar (if not as extreme) situations; different instructors in my style have often learned slightly to significantly different takes on the same moves. Sometimes it's a vertical fist vs. a horizontal fist in a form; sometimes it's completely different sets -- or vastly different drills.

If the student is visiting -- I don't "correct" fundamentals to the way my teacher taught me. At most, I'll ask something like "Well, do me a favor and while you're here, do it this way." (Neve really had it come up though; visitors tend to adjust to the way it's being done there, anyway.) And, if I'm the visitor -- I'm in their sandbox, I do it their way.

If the new student is joining the class, we don't change their rank in our system. We just gradually work with them into the way our teacher taught us. If they don't want to adapt to that -- then there are other classes around. I and my partner have made the commitment to pass on what we were taught faithfully; that means we focus on details and little things, and if you don't like that, we're the wrong club for you.

 

[jdinca]

One trend that I have found interesting is how the ego of some transfer students is tied to their belt rank. The ones that come in and really want to wear their belt rank from another school are usually allowed to, but they often don't last, especially if they see someone who started at our school of same rank moving much better than they are. The ones who come in and go to white belt usually stick around.

Every now and then, we do get a student who starts with their old rank, realizes that they are nowhere near that level in our system and switches to a white belt. It's a mixed bag as to whether, or not they stick around.

 

[still learning]

Hello, If a new student starts in your system? They will be required to learn your ways of doing things.

The new student must relearn if he wishes to train under you. (he may find it better).

He is there to learn your system,techniques,forms, and ways of fighting.

They must always start at white belt....and earn their black belt in your system. (if he starts as a white belt and leaves as a black belt?..he can now claim to earn a black belt in this style.)

As a teacher? ....you owe it to ALL your students to teach your ways!

Any student who does NOT want to learn your systems..should find another teacher.......Aloha (just my thoughts here)

 

[bushidomartialarts]

In our studio we use a simple policy.

If a student comes with rank from another style, we permit them to wear that rank until they surpass it here. They do start as a white belt in terms of learning material (kenpo is a very systematic and objective curriculum), but if another instructor put a rank on his/her waist, it's not my place to ask them to remove it.

Many of our people like that choose to wear the white anyway, but we do permit the other if it's important. Mostly it's kids who feel the need.

 

[IcemanSK]

Hello, If a new student starts in your system? They will be required to learn your ways of doing things.

The new student must relearn if he wishes to train under you. (he may find it better).

He is there to learn your system,techniques,forms, and ways of fighting.

They must always start at white belt....and earn their black belt in your system. (if he starts as a white belt and leaves as a black belt?..he can now claim to earn a black belt in this style.)

As a teacher? ....you owe it to ALL your students to teach your ways!

Any student who does NOT want to learn your systems..should find another teacher.......Aloha (just my thoughts here)

I agree with Still Learning on this. When I came to my current instructor, I'd been training with many different folks in the same style (& a few other styles). His question to me was, "Are you teachable?" That goes beyond just "are you willing to learn new things?" It also asks "are you willing to learn what we do here?"

It has less to do with rank than willingnes to learn from a particular person. If I wanted to change swim coaches, I'd expect to learn a different technique or training method.

 

[kidswarrior]

In our studio we use a simple policy.

If a student comes with rank from another style, we permit them to wear that rank until they surpass it here. They do start as a white belt in terms of learning material (kenpo is a very systematic and objective curriculum), but if another instructor put a rank on his/her waist, it's not my place to ask them to remove it.

Many of our people like that choose to wear the white anyway, but we do permit the other if it's important. Mostly it's kids who feel the need.

I like that approach.

 

[MBuzzy]

The problem that I have run in to in the past and will continue running in to, is that I am never in one place long enough to get far. I've moved Dojangs 4 times and started over everytime. Each time I go faster, but some gyms don't allow you to go faster. The part that bothers me is that I've been to two places that refuse to teach you above your current rank. So I have so far relearned the basics many many times and very seldom gain new knowledge, which is VERY frustrating.

I am in the military, so I will continue moving....and if I start over every time that I move, it will get frustrating fairly quick.

 

[Shaderon]

The problem that I have run in to in the past and will continue running in to, is that I am never in one place long enough to get far. I've moved Dojangs 4 times and started over everytime. Each time I go faster, but some gyms don't allow you to go faster. The part that bothers me is that I've been to two places that refuse to teach you above your current rank. So I have so far relearned the basics many many times and very seldom gain new knowledge, which is VERY frustrating.

I am in the military, so I will continue moving....and if I start over every time that I move, it will get frustrating fairly quick.

Is there not a large organisation that you can join which will enable you to take classes in different countries and so keep your rank?

 

[Adept]

The problem that I have run in to in the past and will continue running in to, is that I am never in one place long enough to get far. I've moved Dojangs 4 times and started over everytime. Each time I go faster, but some gyms don't allow you to go faster. The part that bothers me is that I've been to two places that refuse to teach you above your current rank. So I have so far relearned the basics many many times and very seldom gain new knowledge, which is VERY frustrating.

I am in the military, so I will continue moving....and if I start over every time that I move, it will get frustrating fairly quick.

Yet another problem with artificial ranking structures. Surely 'progression' should be entirely merit based?

 

[MBuzzy]

Is there not a large organisation that you can join which will enable you to take classes in different countries and so keep your rank?

Yes, actually. While I'm here, my rank is through the world Soo Bahk Do organization....so it must be honored at SBD schools. Unfortunately, some have slightly different cirriculums. Different one steps, different Self Defense Techniques, they learn forms at different points. It is standardized, but not completely.

I also deal with Tang Soo Do, since SBD and TSD are so close, I can study at either type of school, but still deal with minor differences - and TSD schools are not required to honor my rank unless I gained it through their particular organization. Even though we share the same style. Too many organizations out there. All with their own little nuances.